Dangers of Feminism

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presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#1
Dangers of Feminism

There are several ways in which Feminism has hurt Christian marriages and families and society. Feminism is deeply rooted in western thought, certainly American thought. Men and women both are influenced by it. It is an implicit assumption in TV shows and movies and children are exposed to it through the school system.

The Bible teaches that the husband is the head of the wife, and that wives are to submit to their husbands and to reverence them. Peter illustrates how a wife should obey her husband, pointing to Sarah who 'obeyed Abraham calling him lord.' Women effected by Feminism may bristle at these teaches. Some men do as well. Some Feminists have tried to reinterpret the meanings of Greek words to make the text more palatable. For example, they may try to find references to 'kephale', translated 'head' seem to mean 'source, and just ignore that more authoritarian references to the use of the word in Ancient Greek. I've even heard of a certain couple who do marriage conferences redefining 'submit' to mean 'adapt'-- of course with no support from ancient Greek.

I haven't seen anyone come up with a way to explain away the word 'obeyed' from I Peter 3, a difficult passage for feminists who want to believe scripture, too.

I've heard Ephesians 5 taught from the pulpit before. It seems like this is a typical treatment of the passage in some types of churches.

"This verse tells wives to submit to their own husbands. Well, I know we've all heard a lot of preaching about that over the years. You'll notice that the Bible has a much longer section for husbands, and they have the great responsibility to love their wives as Christ loves the church."

So the pastor kind of glosses over the part about wives submitting to husbands, mentioning it briefly, and focuses on the men, and then goes into 5 or 10 minutes on how important communication is, or some other marriage issue. The pastor mentions all those sermons everyone has heard on submission, but I'm wondering if his audience has ever heard such a thing. Maybe if they went to church in the 1950's.

That's the type of thing I've heard in church on the subject. The churches aren't really pointing out the widespread rebellion in the home as many wives rule the roost. Feminism has conditioned men to be passive and not take up their leadership role. Many women crave their husbands to lead--something innate that Feminism hasn't erased-- but Feminism has conditioned them not to submit, either. Then the woman may complain that her husband isn't leading because he isn't doing all the things she has in mind and leading the way she thinks he ought to.

Radical feminism has put forth some really poisonous ideas. Some Feminists have described marriage as if it were prostitution. No fault divorce is seen as a somewhat positive thing. Radical Feminists working in various social services can cause damage with their anti-male, anti-family thinking. Many of the homes for abused women have feminist literature. Back in the 1980's, as a teen, I had a relative who spent some time in one of these homes, not because her husband was violent, but because he went through a brief period of mental instability that scared her. I read some of the literature from there. One pamphlet argued that once a man is an abuser, he is always an abuser. Of course, women are encouraged to stay away from their abusers. Of course, this isn't consistent with Christian thinking, where God can transform and sanctify people. There are Christians who, before they became Christians, physically abused their wives, but repented and their marriages were healed.

Also, there is a study that indicated that a certain percentage of cases where a man hits his partner happen after she has hit him repeatedly over a long period of time, and he hits her on a one-off occasion. Abuse is a serious problem, and there are networks set up to help abused women. But abused men have no network to rely on and law enforcement may not take it seriously.

There is also the problem that 'abuse' is an ever-widening term. If you look at some of the domestic violence center websites, the long list of behaviors that are counted as 'abuse' include a man using 'logic' on his wife. Quoting scripture about wives submitting to their husbands is also listed among 'abusive' behaviors. This is particularly bad. No doubt this was added to the list by someone who dislikes those part of the Bible. There may be abusers who do quote scripture when it suits their ends, but so do the righteous, who seek to have marriages in accordance with God's word.

Then there are pastors who have added abuse as grounds for divorce, and even remarriage. This isn't mentioned in scripture as justification to find a new spouse. If a pastor says to leave a spouse if their is 'abuse' and the definition of 'abuse' has been expanded to include reminding a wife of what the Bible teaches wives to do, that's a sad thing. Most of us think of physical abuse when we hear 'abuse', but the definition has been widened. Pastors need to be careful how they address the issue.

One philosophy coming from radical Feminists several years ago was that all men are abusers or potential abusers. That's not a very beneficial way of thinking.

Also, some radical feminists will throw the word 'rape' around quite freely. Instead of referring to forced sex, the definition of 'rape' is expanded to include cases where a woman felt some sort of pressure to have sex, even if she agreed to it. So in a marriage, reminding a wife of her duty to give 'due benevolence' could be labeled 'rape' as happened on a recent thread.

As believers, we need to love the word of God. We also need to be wary of the so-called wisdom of this present age. We should evaluate philosophies based on the word of God and reject what opposed God's word. When we look at the Old Testament, we see that God gave many patriarchal laws, such as laws related to fathers giving daughters away in marriage, and husbands and fathers being allowed to cancel wives' and daughters' vows. The law is holy, just, and good. We also see that God wants wives to submit to their husbands and for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church. We need to be careful not to reject the Lord's teaching because of some philosophy we picked up growing up. If we want to have marriages that please God, we need to follow His word.
 

alexis

Banned by Admin Team (verified fraud)
Dec 5, 2013
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#2
As a young believer, I feel that clearly it is a mans place to lead the house. I am obviously not married yet. When I do I will honor and obey him as my duty as a wife. Now the flip side to this is he needs to also live by the will of God. I believe one issue has come from men not holding up their end of the bargain.
If a man follows scripture and leads his house in the manner which God has instructed, I see no reason why any Christian woman would not be obedient to her husband.
Just my thoughts,
lexi
 
Sep 13, 2012
619
1
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#3
why does everyone ignore the rest of the verses relating to that? Men dont just get off scott free thinking that women have to obey them, we are to love our wives the way Christ loved us. Women are always complaining about the way we act, but if WE followed the way Christ tells us to treat our wives, they wouldnt have an issue obeying the way God says to, because we would be treating them the way they always say they want to be treated, That mean devoting yourself to your wife, and loving,respecting, and treating her the way Christ intended.
 

alexis

Banned by Admin Team (verified fraud)
Dec 5, 2013
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#4
why does everyone ignore the rest of the verses relating to that? Men dont just get off scott free thinking that women have to obey them, we are to love our wives the way Christ loved us. Women are always complaining about the way we act, but if WE followed the way Christ tells us to treat our wives, they wouldnt have an issue obeying the way God says to, because we would be treating them the way they always say they want to be treated, That mean devoting yourself to your wife, and loving,respecting, and treating her the way Christ intended.
Well said I can see no reason to ever not obey a man who is devoted to me and living of me... I obey my heavenly Father because he shows me nothing but love. I obey my earthly father because he shows me nothing but love. If someday a husband does the same I will also obey him.
 
O

overcomer2

Guest
#5
I agree that feminism has touched the hearts of woman. I think also it has made them more manly. Likewise, I see men who are more feminine. The roles are so mixed up. I believe Satan is using racism, communism, satanism, feminism and all the other ism's to divide and destroy the church.

I was raised by a woman, I had no father figure. Boy, was that an eye opener when I got into the house of God where men lead and not woman. What a deliverance. Praise God.
 
O

OneWayOnlyJesus

Guest
#6
I admit I just glossed over this rant... but did catch that you said you have heard the scripture explained that husbands are to love their wives - more than wives submit yourself to your husbands... my experience is the exact opposite. I have heard that scripture quoted often times from many pastors/evangelists/teachers, but almost solely from the 'wives submit to your husbands' perspective - completely leaving out the, husbands love your wives as Christ loves the Church part. And typically, it is men teaching. However, it is a package deal, one leading to the other. Husbands loving the wives as Christ loves the Church leads to wives submitting to husbands. Look at it from that angle and you won't be so disgruntled. This is not a natural thing anyway. Who can love as Christ loved? Only by the power of the Holy Spirit can a husband do this uncommon thing. Only by the grace of God can husbands and wives fulfill this command. Behold Jesus and let His grace work through you to open this door in your marriages. You cannot do this without the grace of God working in your lives.
 

Lucy68

Senior Member
Jan 21, 2011
2,538
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#7
As a young believer, I feel that clearly it is a mans place to lead the house. I am obviously not married yet. When I do I will honor and obey him as my duty as a wife. Now the flip side to this is he needs to also live by the will of God. I believe one issue has come from men not holding up their end of the bargain.
If a man follows scripture and leads his house in the manner which God has instructed, I see no reason why any Christian woman would not be obedient to her husband.
Just my thoughts,
lexi
Extremely well-said Lexi! I wish I was this smart at 15 :)
 

Lucy68

Senior Member
Jan 21, 2011
2,538
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#8
God created us as equals....but with different roles.
 
M

Mammachickadee

Guest
#9
Well said I can see no reason to ever not obey a man who is devoted to me and living of me... I obey my heavenly Father because he shows me nothing but love. I obey my earthly father because he shows me nothing but love. If someday a husband does the same I will also obey him.
Might I use this as a very accurate example of women's equality to men? :) If a man does not show nothing but love, does that not give her grounds to stand for what is right and not fully submit in mind and body? If a man spends the entire marriage calling the shots he would be called a leader on one hand and a despot on the other (obviously the more extreme term would be radical feminism); however, if his demands are unbiblical and undeserving would a wife not be feeding his flesh and providing an occasion for him to fall by remaining complacently submissive? The issue is in the judgement call required to term a husband ''undeserving'' of submission- but because God created man and woman equal spiritually, physically (theoretically), and mentally a woman of God is OBLIGATED to use her equal power of discernment in everything. To say that a woman must jump when a husband says ''obey'' is to say that the husband would never ask of a wife that which would be deemed a violation of God's instruction (an obvious problem).
On the flip side, it is not untrue that radical feminism is a growing trend that influences both the average man and woman. Initially a woman desires to be protected and catered to, but few women, when pressed with opposition to their will, can find it easy to submit or remain objective. The image of a hen-pecked husband in the old story of the ''Fisherman and the Golden Fish'' has become a resounding presence in our culture, and men often confide in each other their exasperation with their wives. Why is this, though? Does feminism spawn such exasperation, or is it not likely that a man's lack of leadership has fed a reverse of roles in the home. In the younger generation especially women in the home are met with selfishness and addiction to whimsy at every turn. Insensed by their husband's vain inattentiveness a woman's natural drive to be equal and proud is fed exponentially. Instead of receiving the sheltering and guidance or LOVE she receives a pile of dishes; a lack of quiet support; and frequent torture of mind and heart when her husband doesn't even remember to hold her for more than 5 minutes or ask about her day. Weekend family plans are traded in for Sunday football parties (which, I might add, are frequently cause for shortened church services) or midnight game releases. Is submitting to a bum okay when said bum wouldn't know what his Bible said about right and wrong if the Decalogue was glued to his dashboard? Someone deserving of blind submission would need to be RIGHT in what he's requiring, but can someone recognize right when they are not willing to learn?
So before writing off ALL feminism as radical and incorrect, perhaps spend an equal amount of time in study of a Christian's exortation and guidance in love found only in the Bible, the church, and the often pleading heart of your wife, Gentlemen. This is not to say all men are selfish animals as most radical feminists would claim. I, for one, would love to submit to my husband in everything... and rarely do I have cause NOT to submit (either because he shows greater/equal understanding or because he requires little). God can bless a marriage with peace, and I pray that men and women alike learn the love required to create a harmonious and biblical partnership in the home.
 
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Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
2,638
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#10
The purpose of this post is what exactly?

Yes women dont like submit to your husbands, especailly in violent relationships,, but its very misunderstood. As already pointed out, men must in return love thier wives as Christ loves his church.

If the husabnd is doing his best to fulfil his obligation, then the woman will naturally submit just as believers submit to Jesus.

Submission does not mean to be walked over, the woman still can have input into decision making and quite often the most successful men have a shrewd and wise wife who gives him good advice.
 
D

DragonSlayer

Guest
#11
Feminism is the way Satan uses to try and divide man and woman.
It's also the way Satan uses to try and destroy true man's identity and true woman's identity.

It's utterly disgusting !

No satanic feminism allowed in Heaven and in the New Earth ! Forever !
 

alexis

Banned by Admin Team (verified fraud)
Dec 5, 2013
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#12
There is a secular book called 'Why Gender Matters' while it has little to do with why I will honor and obey my future husband.. That I stated earlier..

This book however deals with natural consequences in child development when gender roles are not defined. It's very interesting. I did a school report on it and concluded when people do not follow the guidelines defined in The Bible there is also a psychological affect on societies children and their development.

My point I think is a blurry mess....

Anyhow again I will honor and obey my husband as he will lead and follow God's word..
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
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#13
Christian feminists fought for women to have the vote. Would you condemn them for this? Do you think women should not vote?

Christian feminists lead the fight against abortion, abuse and misogyny. Maybe as good Christian men, you cannot understand there are many men who hate women. I know that it used to be against the law for a woman to press charges against her husband for physical abuse in BC where I lived. That law was finally changed and women, esp. those of some repressive foreign countries and religions can now have their husbands arrested for battering. In BC, many East Indian women have been murdered by their husbands, and the Christian church has not offered refugee to these women.

Why is the church not taking a stand against abusive men and providing sanctuary for women who have no place else to go? Instead, it is left to feminists and government organizations to help women who have been constantly battered, raped by their own husbands and deprived of any sort of money for basic living. It boogles the imagination how so many Christians are unaware of the magnitude of wife abuse in their own neighborhoods.

[h=3]SINCE CRIME RATES IN CANADA ARE FALLING, IS VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN STILL A SERIOUS PROBLEM?[/h]
  • Half of all women in Canada have experienced at least one incident of physical or sexual violence since the age of 16.[SUP]1[/SUP]
  • 67% of all Canadians say they personally know at least one woman who has been sexually or physically assaulted.[SUP]2[/SUP]
  • On average, every six days a woman in Canada is killed by her intimate partner. In 2011, In 2011, from the 89 police reported spousal homicides, 76 of the victims (over 85%) were women.[SUP]3[/SUP]
  • On any given day in Canada, more than 3,300 women (along with their 3,000 children) are forced to sleep in an emergency shelter to escape domestic violence. Every night, about 200 women are turned away because the shelters are full. [SUP]4[/SUP]
  • Each year, over 40,000 arrests result from domestic violence—that’s about 12% of all violent crime in Canada.[SUP]5 [/SUP]Since only 22% of all incidents are reported to the police, the real number is much higher.
  • As of 2010, there were 582 known cases of missing or murdered Aboriginal women in Canada.[SUP]6[/SUP] Both Amnesty International and the United Nations have called upon the Canadian government to take action on this issue, without success.[SUP]7,8 [/SUP]According to the Native Women’s Association of Canada, “if this figure were applied proportionately to the rest of the female population there would be over 18,000 missing Canadian women and girls.”[SUP]9[/SUP]
  • The cost of violence against women in Canada for health care, criminal justice, social services, and lost wages and productivity has been calculated at $4.8 billion per year.[SUP]10[/SUP]
  • In a 2009 Canadian national survey, women reported 460,000 incidents of sexual assault in just one year. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Only about 10% of all sexual assaults are reported to police.[SUP]12[/SUP] When it comes to sexual assault, women are frequently not believed, blamed for being assaulted, “or subjected to callous or insensitive treatment, when police fail to take evidence, or when their cases are dropped arbitrarily.” [SUP]13[/SUP] Only a handful of reported assaults ever result in a conviction: each year, only about 1,500 sexual assault offenders are actually convicted.[SUP]14 [/SUP]
  • About 80% of sex trafficking victims in Canada are women and girls.[SUP]15[/SUP]
  • More than one in ten Canadian women say they have been stalked by someone in a way that made them fear for their life.[SUP][SUP]16[/SUP][/SUP]
  • Provincially, Saskatchewan and Manitoba, which have consistently recorded the highest provincial rates of police-reported violent crime, had rates of violence against women in 2011 that were about double the national rate. Ontario and Quebec had the lowest rates of violence against women. As is the case with violent crime overall, the territories have consistently recorded the highest rates of police-reported violence against women. The rate of violent crime against women in Nunavut was nearly 13 times higher than the rate for Canada.[SUP] 17[/SUP]
The Facts About Violence Against Women | Canadianwomen.org

You can look up the stats in your own countries of origins. Senior abuse follows wife abuse in being another scourge caused by thinking that the strong are free to overpower the weak, rather than care for them.

Feminism is a response to misogyny. The church today is full of misogyny. It is full of men who want to repress women and fail to see that Christ wants us to submit mutually to one another.

"submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ." Eph. 5:21

As for Eph. 5:22 it usually is translated this way.

"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord."


The word in Greek is hypotassio, which means to "voluntarily submit". But the word does not appear in the Greek in Eph. 5:22. Instead, it actually reads:

""Wives, to their own husbands, as to the Lord."

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Αἱ γυναῖκες τοῖς ἰδίοις ἀνδράσιν ὡς τῷ κυρίῳ,"

Personally, I think this kind of post is just another example of an insecure man try to bully women. As has already been pointed out, if a man truly loves his wife as Christ loved the church, I know she will be eager to please and love her husband in return.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,163
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#14
If a man follows scripture and leads his house in the manner which God has instructed, I see no reason why any Christian woman would not be obedient to her husband.
Just my thoughts,
lexi
I can think of one reason. It's called the flesh. Is Christ's bride always perfectly obedient to Him? He's sinless. Read Revelation 2. The churches haven't always behaved as they should toward the Lord. False teaching also got in the way, just as Feminist thought and other philosophies can prevent marriages from functioning properly if we believe them.

There is a myth that if a man loves his wife as Christ loves the church, she will automatically submit to him. And a woman may submit well to her husband, but he could continue being unloving to her. In this case, though, I Peter 3 gives us hope that the wife may be able to win her husband through her submission.

The husband should love his wife whether she is submissive or not. The wife should submit to her husband and respect him whether he loves her as Christ loves the church or not.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,163
1,792
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#15
why does everyone ignore the rest of the verses relating to that? Men dont just get off scott free thinking that women have to obey them, we are to love our wives the way Christ loved us. Women are always complaining about the way we act, but if WE followed the way Christ tells us to treat our wives, they wouldnt have an issue obeying the way God says to, because we would be treating them the way they always say they want to be treated, That mean devoting yourself to your wife, and loving,respecting, and treating her the way Christ intended.
I think men have the weightier obligation-- loving like Christ does. Wow.

But I've never seen a discussion on this topic on a forum where a Christian man posted that the verse doesn't REALLY mean that a man has to love his wife as Christ loves the church. I've never seen a discussion where the men try to find some way to make the Greek not really say that.

But I sure have seen women try to do that, or feminist men who don't like the idea of wives submitting to their husbands. My inclination is to believe that this tendency to explain away scripture may have more to do with engrained ideas that come from the culture than from the gender of the posters. In countries where wives' submission to husbands is well accepted, I don't expect to see as much resistance.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,163
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#16
Might I use this as a very accurate example of women's equality to men? :) If a man does not show nothing but love, does that not give her grounds to stand for what is right and not fully submit in mind and body? If a man spends the entire marriage calling the shots he would be called a leader on one hand and a despot on the other (obviously the more extreme term would be radical feminism); however, if his demands are unbiblical and undeserving would a wife not be feeding his flesh and providing an occasion for him to fall by remaining complacently submissive?
The Bible tells wives to submit to their husbands 'in everything.' The submission does not have to be deserved. If the man is disobedient to the word, what does the Bible say. Submit. That's how to win him. It is not the wife's role to judge whether her husband is worthy of submission or only submit to the degree that he is worthy. That may actually be counterproductive to winning him if he is disobedient to the word.

Now, of course, the wife submits to God first. She shouldn't knock over a liquor store, worship idols, or throw children over a cliff to submit to her husband. But if he's having her do the dishes and not helping and wants her to submit, Jesus said to go the extra mile.

The issue is in the judgement call required to term a husband ''undeserving'' of submission- but because God created man and woman equal spiritually, physically (theoretically), and mentally a woman of God is OBLIGATED to use her equal power of discernment in everything. To say that a woman must jump when a husband says ''obey'' is to say that the husband would never ask of a wife that which would be deemed a violation of God's instruction (an obvious problem).
Submission is to God first.

Equality is an American obsession and a western obsession. The equality of believers is not a major theme of scripture. There is 'no difference' between Jew and Greek, male or female, etc. in relation to the promise. But among believers, some are greater than others. The one who 'does and teaches' the commandments is great in the kingdom of heaven. The greatest shall be the servant of all. Some believers are greater servants than others, and are greater than others in the kingdom. That doesn't mean greatness in the kingdom is divided along gender lines. My point is the issue of equality is the obsession of our culture and not the Bible. The Bible doesn't say husband and wife are equal or non-equal. In terms of 'authority' they are not equal. Women are superior at caring for infants because of the way they are designed. Men are usually better able to carry heavy objects, so they aren't equal in that regard.

Are men and women equal at discernment? On average? I wouldn't venture to guess, but Paul's comment to Timothy about the women being deceived in the transgression comes to mind.

Does feminism spawn such exasperation, or is it not likely that a man's lack of leadership has fed a reverse of roles in the home. In the younger generation especially women in the home are met with selfishness and addiction to whimsy at every turn. Insensed by their husband's vain inattentiveness a woman's natural drive to be equal and proud is fed exponentially. Instead of receiving the sheltering and guidance or LOVE she receives a pile of dishes; a lack of quiet support; and frequent torture of mind and heart when her husband doesn't even remember to hold her for more than 5 minutes or ask about her day.
I wouldn't say men are free from fault. I believe men are responsible for the rise of feminism, promoting it, and not standing against some of the bad thinking behind it. But men raised under the influence of feminism are taught against leading as they should. Many men are raised without seeing male leadership in the home, which furthers the problem. Many women instinctively desire to see that leadership, crave it, but have been programmed to reject it by feminist philosophy.

I don't know if there is any set rule on how long a man is supposed to hold his wife. But I'll have to remember to get upset with mine if she holds me for only 4 minutes. ")


Weekend family plans are traded in for Sunday football parties (which, I might add, are frequently cause for shortened church services) or midnight game releases. Is submitting to a bum okay when said bum wouldn't know what his Bible said about right and wrong if the Decalogue was glued to his dashboard? Someone deserving of blind submission would need to be RIGHT in what he's requiring, but can someone recognize right when they are not willing to learn?
Submission shouldn't be blind. It should be done with knowledge. But ultimately, submission is to the Lord. The wife should submit to a husband who isn't obeying the word out of her reverence for Christ, not because her husband deserves it. How could Peter have told people to submit to the king when Nero was in power if submission depended on how deserving the person being submitted to was?

So before writing off ALL feminism as radical and incorrect, perhaps spend an equal amount of time in study of a Christian's exortation and guidance in love found only in the Bible, the church, and the often pleading heart of your wife,
Feminism is based on the idea that there is a patriarchy that keeps women down, and that patriarchy is evil. But we patriarchy in the Bible. God is the Father and many laws given to Moses were patriarchical.
 
M

Mammachickadee

Guest
#17
The Bible tells wives to submit to their husbands 'in everything.' The submission does not have to be deserved. If the man is disobedient to the word, what does the Bible say. Submit. That's how to win him. It is not the wife's role to judge whether her husband is worthy of submission or only submit to the degree that he is worthy. That may actually be counterproductive to winning him if he is disobedient to the word.

Now, of course, the wife submits to God first. She shouldn't knock over a liquor store, worship idols, or throw children over a cliff to submit to her husband. But if he's having her do the dishes and not helping and wants her to submit, Jesus said to go the extra mile.



Submission is to God first.

Equality is an American obsession and a western obsession. The equality of believers is not a major theme of scripture. There is 'no difference' between Jew and Greek, male or female, etc. in relation to the promise. But among believers, some are greater than others. The one who 'does and teaches' the commandments is great in the kingdom of heaven. The greatest shall be the servant of all. Some believers are greater servants than others, and are greater than others in the kingdom. That doesn't mean greatness in the kingdom is divided along gender lines. My point is the issue of equality is the obsession of our culture and not the Bible. The Bible doesn't say husband and wife are equal or non-equal. In terms of 'authority' they are not equal. Women are superior at caring for infants because of the way they are designed. Men are usually better able to carry heavy objects, so they aren't equal in that regard.

Are men and women equal at discernment? On average? I wouldn't venture to guess, but Paul's comment to Timothy about the women being deceived in the transgression comes to mind.



I wouldn't say men are free from fault. I believe men are responsible for the rise of feminism, promoting it, and not standing against some of the bad thinking behind it. But men raised under the influence of feminism are taught against leading as they should. Many men are raised without seeing male leadership in the home, which furthers the problem. Many women instinctively desire to see that leadership, crave it, but have been programmed to reject it by feminist philosophy.

I don't know if there is any set rule on how long a man is supposed to hold his wife. But I'll have to remember to get upset with mine if she holds me for only 4 minutes. ")




Submission shouldn't be blind. It should be done with knowledge. But ultimately, submission is to the Lord. The wife should submit to a husband who isn't obeying the word out of her reverence for Christ, not because her husband deserves it. How could Peter have told people to submit to the king when Nero was in power if submission depended on how deserving the person being submitted to was?



Feminism is based on the idea that there is a patriarchy that keeps women down, and that patriarchy is evil. But we patriarchy in the Bible. God is the Father and many laws given to Moses were patriarchical.
So if his instruction is to hold the gun for him or keep the car warm while he robs a bank, a wife is to ''submit in everything''? I don't think so.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,163
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#18
Christian feminists fought for women to have the vote. Would you condemn them for this? Do you think women should not vote?
For me it doesn't matter one way or another. When it comes to government, I'm more concerned with righteous government. I don't think anyone has to vote for a government to be righteous before God. None of the governments God set up or backed up in scripture were democracies, and He seemed okay with that. If we are going to have a vote, I'd be fine with the male head of household voting for what is best for those in his household. But I'm not against women voting per se.

If wicked people are voting, we expect wicked laws, and we might see more righteousness with a righteous monarch. But monarchs can be wicked as well.

Christian feminists lead the fight against abortion, abuse and misogyny.
Christian feminists lead the fight against abortion? Really? Lead the fight? I don't know all the players in the anti-baby-murder movement, but are any of the major lobby groups or ministries headed by Christian feminists? They are leading these other groups? Non-Christian feminists have led the fight for womb-dwelling baby murder.

If one defined abuse and misogyny as not being feminist or egalitarian as opposed to complementarian, he might agree with the latter part of your statement. The Bible is a very patriarchal set of books, but it is against mysogyny.


Why is the church not taking a stand against abusive men and providing sanctuary for women who have no place else to go?
Can you really say that churches aren't helping abused women? And what does 'take a stand' mean? Are you thinking churches have to go wave signs at the state house? Church discipline is a forgotten doctrine these days. I have heard of it being exercised in such cases, though.

Churches should be salt and light to society, but we have a special obligation to judge our own, rather than those on the outside. Churches can help troubled marriages, even marriages where there is violence, by leading couples and individuals to repentance and faith, and offering discipleship as the Lord brings transformation in people's lives.

I know some Christians have been involved in helping battered women. I know one gentleman here, a retired seminary professor, who helped set up a ministry for that. I also know of Christians working to stop human trafficking as well.

Feminism is a response to misogyny. The church today is full of misogyny. It is full of men who want to repress women and fail to see that Christ wants us to submit mutually to one another.
There are also churches full of rebellious women who do not want to submit to their husbands.

"submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ." Eph. 5:21
Are you married with children? Do you submit to your children? Do you ask them what time you are allowed to come home? Is that part of submitting to one another.

"One another' is not always exactly reciprocal. In Revelation, the soldiers in an army slew each other. Does that mean that if there are thousands of soldiers, each soldier stuck his sword in each and every one of those thousands of other soldiers and killed every single one of them, and the soldier beside him did the same thing, and every single soldier stabbed him, too. Or does does that mean that one slew one soldier and another slew another.

In Ephesians 5, the saint are told to submit to one another, then instructions follow as to who is to submit to whom. Submit to one another: wives submit to your husbands, slaves submit to your masters, and children obey your parents.

It says who is supposed to submit to whom.

As for Eph. 5:22 it usually is translated this way.

"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord."


The word in Greek is hypotassio, which means to "voluntarily submit". But the word does not appear in the Greek in Eph. 5:22. Instead, it actually reads:

""Wives, to their own husbands, as to the Lord."
Some manuscripts have the word hupotasso in there and others do not. But omitting it strengthens the case for delineation, for the idea that Paul is telling who is to submit to whom.

Submit to one another: wives to husbands, slaves to masters, children to parents.

[Btw, I mention slaves because they are mentioned in the passage, not so someone more concerned with rhetoric than following the argument can accuse complementarians of wanting wives to be slaves.]

You do know, don't you, that Colossians 3:18 tells wives to submit to their husbands. I Peter 3 tells wives to submit to their husbands, illustrating it with the example of Sarah's obedience to Abraham.

Personally, I think this kind of post is just another example of an insecure man try to bully women.
That's another problem with feminists, the tendency to make ad hominem attacks against men. Pointing out error that you may believe in does not constitute bullying. I'm behaving myself. What is name calling like you just did in the quote above?

As has already been pointed out, if a man truly loves his wife as Christ loved the church, I know she will be eager to please and love her husband in return.
Will she really if she thinks like a feminist? Are women totally holy and pure and always do what is right as long as their husbands do what is right? Women are sinful just like men. Christ knew no sin, and the church is the bride of Christ. Read Revelation 2 and see how well the churches in Asia treated Christ.

The Bible does not teach that if a man loves his wife as Christ loved the church that she will submit to him properly. But it does tell wives with husbands who do not obey the word to submit to their husbands.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,163
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#19
So if his instruction is to hold the gun for him or keep the car warm while he robs a bank, a wife is to ''submit in everything''? I don't think so.
You didn't read the whole post you quoted, did you? I addressed that topic in the paragraph that says that she shouldn't knock over a liquor store. Liquor store, bank, it's the same principle.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#20
Do you think women should not vote?
I think this is probably the most inconsequential thing in your entire post. What does it matter if they can't?