What's so bad about calvinism?

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Just to let you know, the Sun is a star.

Actually the Sun is not a star, it has a different light compared to the stars.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Actually the Sun is not a star, it has a different light compared to the stars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun

 

[Walt]

I feel like this is the most split argument in all of Christianity. I had a hard time dealing with this issue myself. But ultimately I had to come to the conclusion that God did predestine those who he decided to save and chose not too save others. If you hold to the idea that it was YOU that chose God then you are putting the glory of your salvation upon yourself. But if you accept that it was GOD that chose you then all the glory is bestowed upon Him, and then you will realize that there is nothing that you can do as a depraved human to earn your own salvation. Its by his Grace that he chose you to be saved. Its all about Grace. All about Grace.

 

[iraasuup]

John 3:16

For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him, shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Yeah, can't argue with that!!

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun

Definition_Christ,

Wikipedia is not a relevant source, it is an popular opinion site and links page. I don't want to get into a discussion on the nature of light, i'm just correcting you; the Sun is not a star.

 

[pickles]

Quite honestly I have know idea what it is , nor many of the refurals on faith belief. I have always trusted in the word and what is revealed by His Spirit. If you think about it , it might avoid alot of argument.... Then again maby not. smiles and God bless, pickles

 

[Stanton]

Knowing all things from the beginning, does not mean that God cannot change His mind or repent, He has changed His mind, Moses made God repent, the question we might ask is; does God have something more to learn about Himself? As He creates does He learn more about His possiblities about His own destiny, you see He is not limited, He is unlimited and all is possible with Him, but on some things He says He will not repent, and will not change what He has said, it will be done, but is He capable of change? Yes.

Hey Bro there is a big problem with this statement. You are saying that Man was able to make God repent. What did God have to repent of? If his will was to destroy the Israelites then by all means its His will. Man has no ability to make God repent or change His mind. The reason why God held back His wrath was because of the cries and prayers that Moses, David, etc. ever yelled out to Him but to say that God repented then that is heretical. By no means can God sin or ever need to learn more about himself considering he a God who is all knowing. Does that make sense? Please use biblical foundation in the statement that shows that God needed to repent or needs to learn more about himself! =)

 

[Sharp]

Ok cool. So the main objection to calvinism is predestination.

I don't see a problem with predestination, since God created the world knowing every single thing that would happen. He could have created it in such a way that everyone was guaranteed of being saved, but He didn't. He gave everyone a choice, knowing what each person would choose (but not choosing for them). By giving people a choice and knowing what they would choose, I believe the fate of everyone was sealed before the world was created.

People say that a God of predestination would be 'mean' or 'unloving', as He created them knowing they would end up in hell. However, having the foreknowledge He had when He created the world, and knowing that people would exercise their own discretion and turn away from Him by their own will, He chose to create the world anyway. So, whether the course of history has been predestined or not, God has knowingly created people who He knew would end up in hell. Again, He didn't make the decision for them, but He created them knowing what decision they would make. God has mercy on whom He has mercy.

The question I would then ask is does a belief in predestination make evangelism futile? I don't think it does, for we don't know who will be saved and who won't. Just because God does, it doesn't mean our efforts are in vain, because who are we to decide whose hearts have been hardened? We have no less incentive to preach the gospel, because from our point of view, every person has the potential to be saved. From God's point of view, He knows who will and won't be saved. So what? If we evangelise and someone becomes a Christian because of God working through us, it was always going to happen - God knew about it. So in my point of view, a belief in predestination is no reason to stop evangelising, because there are peoople out there now that will be saved because of what God will do through us in the future.

It may be a grim thought that we are all just characters in a script that is being played out, but I don't see a way around this point of view when you consider that God is all-knowing.

 

[Sharp]

Actually the problem is arising because of your vision of 'Hell', God says He will not pass people through the fire, neither is it in his nature to do so, you picture in your mind human bodies being dragged over burning hot coals for infinity years, but God says His fire is eternal and the soul that sins will die. This is part of a greater problem in Christianity today or should I say churchianity and we have had these so called preachers like Jonathon Edwards and the like who are administative church types that condemn people to an infinity of torture and them claim it is God's pre-destined choice, this is ridiculous, nowhere is 'Hell" descibed as a place where unrepentent sinners are tortured with fire for infinity years while God and His saints look on gleefully, that is all just the Devil's play, blaspheming God, and His holy and merciful nature.

Cup, I'd like to hear your thoughts on what hell would be like.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Hey Bro there is a big problem with this statement. You are saying that Man was able to make God repent. What did God have to repent of? If his will was to destroy the Israelites then by all means its His will. Man has no ability to make God repent or change His mind. The reason why God held back His wrath was because of the cries and prayers that Moses, David, etc. ever yelled out to Him but to say that God repented then that is heretical. By no means can God sin or ever need to learn more about himself considering he a God who is all knowing. Does that make sense? Please use biblical foundation in the statement that shows that God needed to repent or needs to learn more about himself! =)

Exodus 32:14

"And the LORD repented of the evil which He thought to do to His people"

That's all the Biblical foundation I need, interestingly God had actually told Moses to leave Him alone, He was going to strike out in wrath, no doubt about it, Moses didn't listen, and imagine this as God in all His anger and fury and little old Moses confronts him again tells Him to repent of His will! God considers Moses plea, then repents, amazing, Moses really had some ticker!

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Cup, I'd like to hear your thoughts on what hell would be like.

Greetings,

In sheol the dead no nothing, no human being is being tortured in a firey hellhole for infinity years now or ever, that's the simple short answer.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

God repents in Jonah as I remember, in fact God repents quite few times, He repented that He made Saul king, what about Jeremiah "I repent of the evil I was going to do to you", That's repentence, a change of mind, that is what the word means, sometimes God changes His mind.

 

[Thaddaeus]

If you haven't realized I am a calvinist =). If you have any questions I would like to hear them and answer them to the best of my ability. But i would say you must be able to prove it through the Bible rather than opinion.

If calvinism is a true could you please explain this don't try and turn to MacCarther's commentary all He says on it is that there are some scriptures on free that even he struggles with.

2ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

If Paul really preached predestination why would He say that he suffered that the elect( predetermined ones) may also obtain salvation. now here you can't say that the reason he preached the gospel is because he didn't know who the elect were, or he suffered because he didn't know who the elect were. for clearly here Paul says that the elect needed to obtain salvation also. Now I look at bibical doctrines as a boat, as long as Our boats/doctrines keep afloat we are good but if someone comes along with scriptures and put holes in our boats/doctrines then we have a choice to jump on their boat or to go down with our boat that is sinking. this verse 2tim 2:10 clearly blows areally big hole in the doctrine of Grace according to calvinism. I would love to hear your take on this verse along with another question if I may. if God predetermined some into heaven and some into hell before time begin why Did Jesus have to go to the the cross, was there not another way than the Cross and does calvinism not make the cross and the works Christ did on the Cross vain???

 

[1Covenant]

Actually the problem is arising because of your vision of 'Hell', God says He will not pass people through the fire, neither is it in his nature to do so, you picture in your mind human bodies being dragged over burning hot coals for infinity years, but God says His fire is eternal and the soul that sins will die. This is part of a greater problem in Christianity today or should I say churchianity and we have had these so called preachers like Jonathon Edwards and the like who are administative church types that condemn people to an infinity of torture and them claim it is God's pre-destined choice, this is ridiculous, nowhere is 'Hell" descibed as a place where unrepentent sinners are tortured with fire for infinity years while God and His saints look on gleefully, that is all just the Devil's play, blaspheming God, and His holy and merciful nature.

Ok. I don't want to say you are avoiding my point, but the above is really immaterial. You could plug in anything you like instead of Hell (perhaps just Human misery), God still had foreknowledge of misery and He proceeded anyway to make a reality of what he foreknew. What do you think about what God did in that context?

 

[1Covenant]

The question I would then ask is does a belief in predestination make evangelism futile? I don't think it does

Absolutely right...In fact the idea of predestination is the promise of a response to the Gospel call. Even as he sends us out, he is telling us that he has those that will respond. The two are in harmony.

 

[1Covenant]

Exodus 32:14

"And the LORD repented of the evil which He thought to do to His people"

I think that there is an important distinction just to note:
When God repents or relents. As in the case with Moses, Moses present God's own promises back to God and presents God's character back to him, and presents God's glory as the point of his (Moses') reasoning. God does not change, he remains consistent. In the other instances, it is similar to this or it is because of repentance. Especially in the case of Moses, Moses is by divine direction portraying the office of Mediator. Christ does not present anything but Himself to Himself - His own goodness and sacrifice to appease his own wrath and holiness.

 

[Thaddaeus]

Actually the problem is arising because of your vision of 'Hell', God says He will not pass people through the fire, neither is it in his nature to do so, you picture in your mind human bodies being dragged over burning hot coals for infinity years, but God says His fire is eternal and the soul that sins will die. This is part of a greater problem in Christianity today or should I say churchianity and we have had these so called preachers like Jonathon Edwards and the like who are administative church types that condemn people to an infinity of torture and them claim it is God's pre-destined choice, this is ridiculous, nowhere is 'Hell" descibed as a place where unrepentent sinners are tortured with fire for infinity years while God and His saints look on gleefully, that is all just the Devil's play, blaspheming God, and His holy and merciful nature.

Mt 18:8Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into EVERLASTING FIRE.Mt 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels:
I have been told that in greek the word hell is the same as grave, so if you spiritually die you go to the grave which is hell. Cup, I have always thought of you as having some wisdom of the Bible. even though most of it was misguided But for you to make statement about hell as you did in this post, just shows me that as myself you really should study to show thyself approved and quit taking other's word on what the Bible says , I would strongly suggest a study on hell itself. and one more thing God never sends anyone to Hell He provided the way of escape we send ourselves to hell for rejecting His Love

Mr 3:29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal ****ation:


Mr 9:48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not QUENCHed.

now I know you would think that in such a fire one would be consumed but here if the worm dieth not from the fire chances are those that are there will dieth not also. again, God does not do this

 

[1still_waters]

I used to be a Calvinist and at times I slip back in to it, because on paper it looks like a logical cohesive system of belief. But the more I looked at it and the more I listened to people defend it, the more I realized it just doesn't work.

To me Calvinism just doesn't work. I don't know any other way to say it.

I don't find it abhorrent as the post title says. I just find it not workable when looking at the scriptures.

After listening to some of the best Calvinists try to explain it, I realized Calvinists do unbelievable Bible gymnastics to make the Bible fit in to their system of belief.

I found myself thinking, "Man if the Bible has to be tweeked, twisted and bent this much to make it fit in to Calvinism, then maybe Calvinism isn't true."

Calvinists have to make the Bible say things it doesn't say. Or they have to make the Bible not say what it is clearly saying, in order for their entire system of belief to work! To me, if you have to struggle to make a verse or verses not say, what they clearly say, just to make it fit in your system of belief, well, then you probably have a problem with your system of belief.

I would challenge Calvinists to slow down and really look at the tactics you take to make your system of belief work. When you come to a verse that contradicts your system of belief, you shouldn't go looking for 'ways to make it fit'. Instead you should just change your beliefs! Unfortunately, many Calvinists go looking for a way to 'make it fit'.

 

[Thaddaeus]

sI used to be a Calvinist and at times I slip back in to it, because on paper it looks like a logical cohesive system of belief. But the more I looked at it and the more I listened to people defend it, the more I realized it just doesn't work.

To me Calvinism just doesn't work. I don't know any other way to say it.

I don't find it abhorrent as the post title says. I just find it not workable when looking at the scriptures.

After listening to some of the best Calvinists try to explain it, I realized Calvinists do unbelievable Bible gymnastics to make the Bible fit in to their system of belief.

I found myself thinking, "Man if the Bible has to be tweeked, twisted and bent this much to make it fit in to Calvinism, then maybe Calvinism isn't true."

Calvinists have to make the Bible say things it doesn't say. Or they have to make the Bible not say what it is clearly saying, in order for their entire system of belief to work! To me, if you have to struggle to make a verse or verses not say, what they clearly say, just to make it fit in your system of belief, well, then you probably have a problem with your system of belief.

I would challenge Calvinists to slow down and really look at the tactics you take to make your system of belief work. When you come to a verse that contradicts your system of belief, you shouldn't go looking for 'ways to make it fit'. Instead you should just change your beliefs! Unfortunately, many Calvinists go looking for a way to 'make it fit'.

amen, a great example of what waters is speaking of Is

Joh 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
to a cavinist the world is not all the world, just the world that God choose, and whosoever is not whosoever. it again is the ones God has choosen

 

[1still_waters]

amen, a great example of what waters is speaking of Is

Joh 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
to a cavinist the world is not all the world, just the world that God choose, and whosoever is not whosoever. it again is the ones God has choosen

Lol yeah, or 'God is willing that none should perish." Takes alotta Bible gymnastics to make that one fit in Calvinism.

I mean if there are so many verses that DON'T easily fit in to a system of belief, then maybe it's a sign that that system of belief isn't correct.