Did Yeshua/Jesus die on a cross or a stake?
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2
2Thewaters
Guest
It was a cross
Historical reporters said when Rome killed the Jews the srosses were so think on the hills surrounding JErusalem it looked like a forest
also the word of God says the cross because Jesus prophesied that peter was crucified with his hands outstretched.
This is what Jesus said to Peter:
John 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
John 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
It is a cross
Peter was crucified on a cross head down because he did not feel worthy to be crucified with his head up like his savior.
Historical reporters said when Rome killed the Jews the srosses were so think on the hills surrounding JErusalem it looked like a forest
also the word of God says the cross because Jesus prophesied that peter was crucified with his hands outstretched.
This is what Jesus said to Peter:
John 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
John 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
It is a cross
Peter was crucified on a cross head down because he did not feel worthy to be crucified with his head up like his savior.
R
reject-tech
Guest
While I believe it was an upright pole, I don't think it matters so much if it is thought of either way.
I believe the important part of it is that He was "nailed" to a "tree" or piece of "wood", which means He was attached to a simple decision making process based on mere thoughts, instead of a way of life as was intended.
A foreshadow of the last 2000 years of icon-ism in the place of actual servitude.
That's how "He" was "killed."
I can't see how the hands stretched "forth" could mean either to the sides, or straight up in the air. I think that is a picture of someone reaching out to receive something, or a posture of being led.
But again, I don't think it's gonna hurt anyone to believe cross or pole either way, unless they try to make either one a mandatory belief.
Lying in a manger -
Substituted in place of the regular food for us "animals".
Eat the body, drink the blood, try to emulate Him.
Behold, you will find Him, lying in a manger.
I believe the important part of it is that He was "nailed" to a "tree" or piece of "wood", which means He was attached to a simple decision making process based on mere thoughts, instead of a way of life as was intended.
A foreshadow of the last 2000 years of icon-ism in the place of actual servitude.
That's how "He" was "killed."
I can't see how the hands stretched "forth" could mean either to the sides, or straight up in the air. I think that is a picture of someone reaching out to receive something, or a posture of being led.
But again, I don't think it's gonna hurt anyone to believe cross or pole either way, unless they try to make either one a mandatory belief.
Lying in a manger -
Substituted in place of the regular food for us "animals".
Eat the body, drink the blood, try to emulate Him.
Behold, you will find Him, lying in a manger.
S
ServantStrike
Guest
The cross that Christ was forced to carry may have in fact been the crossbar.
From what I've read, those who were to be crucified were usually forced to carry the crossbar to the location of the upright portion of the cross they were to be crucified on. The cross bar was attached and the Crucifixion proceeded.
From what I've read, those who were to be crucified were usually forced to carry the crossbar to the location of the upright portion of the cross they were to be crucified on. The cross bar was attached and the Crucifixion proceeded.
It was a cross
John 20:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Prophecy fulfilled.
Deu 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deu 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God
that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
It was made of a tree. I believe it was a cross stake.
Deu 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deu 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God
that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
It was made of a tree. I believe it was a cross stake.
N
NWL
Guest
Based on scriptural evidence alone (the only important type of evidence) we can say without hesitation that Jesus died on a stake/tree.
The Greek word generally translated “cross” is stau·ros′. It basically means “an upright pale or stake.” The Companion Bible points out: “Stau·ros′ never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle . . . There is nothing in the Greek of the New Testament even to imply two pieces of timber.”
In several texts, Bible writers use another word for the instrument of Jesus’ death. It is the Greek word xy′lon. This word simply means “timber” or “a stick, club, or tree.” (Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Galatians 3:13; 1 Peter 2:24)
The most convincing proof of all, however, comes from God’s Word. The apostle Paul says:
(Galatians 3:13) “…Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake [“a tree,” King James Version]…’”
Here Paul quotes Deuteronomy 21:22, 23, which clearly refers to a stake, not a cross.
There is no evidence that for the first 300 years after Christ’s death, those claiming to be Christians used the cross in worship. In the fourth century, however, pagan Emperor Constantine became a convert to apostate Christianity and promoted the cross as its symbol. Whatever Constantine’s motives, the cross had nothing to do with Jesus Christ. The cross is, in fact, pagan in origin. The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The cross is found in both pre-Christian and non-Christian cultures.” Various other authorities have linked the cross with nature worship and pagan sex rites.
Why, then, was this pagan symbol promoted?
Apparently, to make it easier for pagans to accept “Christianity.” So everywhere you see the word cross written in your Bible, just know it was placed in there as a pagan tradition of man , it does not belong there. At the end of all things however the important thing is Jesus life paid for our sins, what he died on isn't important, however the promotion of idolatry because of the cross falsehood is obviously a snare set by the Devil to insult God.
The Greek word generally translated “cross” is stau·ros′. It basically means “an upright pale or stake.” The Companion Bible points out: “Stau·ros′ never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle . . . There is nothing in the Greek of the New Testament even to imply two pieces of timber.”
In several texts, Bible writers use another word for the instrument of Jesus’ death. It is the Greek word xy′lon. This word simply means “timber” or “a stick, club, or tree.” (Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Galatians 3:13; 1 Peter 2:24)
The most convincing proof of all, however, comes from God’s Word. The apostle Paul says:
(Galatians 3:13) “…Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake [“a tree,” King James Version]…’”
Here Paul quotes Deuteronomy 21:22, 23, which clearly refers to a stake, not a cross.
There is no evidence that for the first 300 years after Christ’s death, those claiming to be Christians used the cross in worship. In the fourth century, however, pagan Emperor Constantine became a convert to apostate Christianity and promoted the cross as its symbol. Whatever Constantine’s motives, the cross had nothing to do with Jesus Christ. The cross is, in fact, pagan in origin. The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The cross is found in both pre-Christian and non-Christian cultures.” Various other authorities have linked the cross with nature worship and pagan sex rites.
Why, then, was this pagan symbol promoted?
Apparently, to make it easier for pagans to accept “Christianity.” So everywhere you see the word cross written in your Bible, just know it was placed in there as a pagan tradition of man , it does not belong there. At the end of all things however the important thing is Jesus life paid for our sins, what he died on isn't important, however the promotion of idolatry because of the cross falsehood is obviously a snare set by the Devil to insult God.
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σταυρῷ can be translated as either cross or stake as in an upright pole. It really makes little difference theologically speaking. Either way, "cursed is he who hanges on the tree." Historically however, the Roman practiced crucifixion on a σταυρῷ which was augmented with a crossmember.
D
didymos
Guest
S
ServantStrike
Guest
Right, and when the accused was to carry his cross, what he carried was often the crossbar/crossmember, which was then fastened to the upright stake portion of the cross.
Matthew 27
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull,
Not for nothing, but what is "preferred" ain't always what you get............Cross.........be hard to nail His hands AND feet to a singular stake seems to me........common sense evidence........oh, no, wait.......
D
didymos
Guest
In every case where the word cross is used in the N.T., the word is...
G4716
σταυρός
stauros
stow-ros'
From the base of G2476; a stake or post (as set upright), that is, (specifically) a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively exposure to death, that is, self denial; by implication the atonement of Christ: - cross.
Thayer has it...
G4716
σταυρός
stauros
Thayer Definition:
1) an upright stake, especially a pointed one
2) a cross
2a) a well known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces, at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves
2b) the crucifixion which Christ underwent
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the base of G2476
Citing in TDNT: 7:572, 1071
At that time there were three types of "cross" used for execution. A "T" shape, a cross as most visualize it today and an upright pale. Because of usage of the word, I tend to think it was an upright pale or stake.
G4716
σταυρός
stauros
stow-ros'
From the base of G2476; a stake or post (as set upright), that is, (specifically) a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively exposure to death, that is, self denial; by implication the atonement of Christ: - cross.
Thayer has it...
G4716
σταυρός
stauros
Thayer Definition:
1) an upright stake, especially a pointed one
2) a cross
2a) a well known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces, at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves
2b) the crucifixion which Christ underwent
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the base of G2476
Citing in TDNT: 7:572, 1071
At that time there were three types of "cross" used for execution. A "T" shape, a cross as most visualize it today and an upright pale. Because of usage of the word, I tend to think it was an upright pale or stake.
Possibly...............but seems to me that somewhere in the ancient gray matter betwixt my ears, I have read that the Romans "reused" the "verticle" pole of the cross, and those to be crucified carried the "horizontal" pole to the site with them.
Who knows? I suppose it makes for good wonderment...........but as someone else already said........
WHAT'S IMPORTANT IS HE IS RISEN!
However, if we are just discussing to be discussing............then what brand of nail was used? Did they get their hammer from Wal-Mart? What were the names of the Soldiers who cast dice for His garments? What did Pilot have for dinner that night? Exactly how many women named "Mary" witnessed the crucifixion? Was the Soldier who pierced His side with a spear left or right handed? How tall was that Soldier? What kind of wood was the spear made of?
............and on, and on.............
I think I'll go with the idea that it was a Cross..........just because I like to..............
Roman crosses with horizontal beams is certainly well attested to from the history of that period. Even the art of the early centuries that followed bear this out.
LOL. No argument here.However, if we are just discussing to be discussing............then what brand of nail was used? Did they get their hammer from Wal-Mart? What were the names of the Soldiers who cast dice for His garments? What did Pilot have for dinner that night? Exactly how many women named "Mary" witnessed the crucifixion? Was the Soldier who pierced His side with a spear left or right handed? How tall was that Soldier? What kind of wood was the spear made of?
............and on, and on.............
I think I'll go with the idea that it was a Cross..........just because I like to..............
