I just found this on a rapture site

[PlainWord]

I would like to enter this debate, but only if we keep it nice. No name calling or being rude, please.
Genesis 4

King James Version (KJV)

4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.


This does not say that Satan knew Eve, It says that Adam did and as the result of having SEX WITH ADAM she had Cain. If she had gotten Cain from Satan, she would not have said "I have gotten man from THE LORD"

Then it says that she got pregnant AGAIN, AFTER SHE "BARE" CAIN.

I'll keep this nice. I explained this back on Post #9, but here is the relevant part again. You have to read carefully what it actually says...

3. Cain and Abel were twins thus the need for enmity or separation. This part will be really hard for some to accept but read it closely:

1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, "I have acquired a man from the Lord."
2 Then she bore again, this time his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Notice Adam "knew his wife ONCE, not twice!!!" Adam "knew" his wife and bore Cain then bore Abel. It doesn't say any time lapsed, nor does it say Adam "knew" his wife a second time. Eve did not know Cain was Satan's son as evidenced that she thought Cain was from the Lord.

 

[shrimp]

Thank you for accepting terms of engagement. Nobody likes being a victim of mean, hateful behavior. I will do my best as well.

I will except your premise that Cain and Abel were twins , but only to point out an interesting point. If I may. Do you suppose that they were perhaps from the same father, Adam, like today we have Identical and Fraternal Twins. Which means that Adam would still be the father.

Perhaps instead of going over the genealogy of Cain first we should go over the beginning matter of this thread. Which is my fault that we didn't start there in the first place. My apologies.

Please show me clear scriptural evidence of Satan having sexual relations with Adam and/or Eve. Then I shall return with my rebuttal.

 

[PlainWord]

1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, "I have acquired a man from the Lord."
2 Then she bore again, this time his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Let's look at the facts:

Adam knew Eve - We all know what that means
She conceived.
She bore Cain.
She bore Abel.

It does not say she knew Adam twice (which isn't needed for twins, I get that) but it also doesn't say she conceived twice. It only mentions he conceiving once. For her to have two children from Adam she would have needed to conceived twice. Therefore one child isn't from Adam. I think God was being "sensitive" in telling this story as it is a sick and perverted thing if Adam and Eve did this with Satan.

Now it could have been Satan worship too and maybe no sex (although the enmity between Satan's seed and Eve's seed would seem completely unnecessary). The idea of partaking of "fruit" from Satan's tree and eating meaning worshiping Satan is very similar to taking the body of Christ and eating as we do for communion. Either way you slice it, Adam and Eve did a bad thing and it would seem to me it was far worse than just eating an apple or other piece of fruit.

 

[mystdancer50]

The thing is that God would have straight out said this from the beginning. He straight out said about the angels sleeping with women before Noah's day, didn't He? So, you are reading something He never said. God does not lie and He does not hide the truth. God also wasn't writing a sex book. He knew people would understand that Adam and Eve had sex more than once, as is known by all without it being written or told.

 

[PlainWord]

Thank you for accepting terms of engagement. Nobody likes being a victim of mean, hateful behavior. I will do my best as well.

I will except your premise that Cain and Abel were twins , but only to point out an interesting point. If I may. Do you suppose that they were perhaps from the same father, Adam, like today we have Identical and Fraternal Twins. Which means that Adam would still be the father.

Perhaps instead of going over the genealogy of Cain first we should go over the beginning matter of this thread. Which is my fault that we didn't start there in the first place. My apologies.

Please show me clear scriptural evidence of Satan having sexual relations with Adam and/or Eve. Then I shall return with my rebuttal.

Please go back and read my post #9 as I lay out my case for this theory. Again, it is a theory, I'm NOT stating this as absolute fact. Some people like to take verses that don't state a certain fact and teach them as fact. I am not intending to do this. I am simply pointing out that there is biblical support for Satan to be Cain's literal father without it coming right out and saying this.

Here is another example of God telling us a perverted story about Noah's wife and his son, Ham. Many think this passage deals with shame in seeing one's dad naked. Not so, this one is clear. Ham slept with Noah's wife, his own mother.

22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside.

23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and went backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father's nakedness.

Do you accept this or do you think it was just Noah being naked????

 

[PlainWord]

The thing is that God would have straight out said this from the beginning. He straight out said about the angels sleeping with women before Noah's day, didn't He? So, you are reading something He never said. God does not lie and He does not hide the truth. God also wasn't writing a sex book. He knew people would understand that Adam and Eve had sex more than once, as is known by all without it being written or told.

Not so fast, read my last post. God can be delicate in describing such sensitive things.

 

[PlainWord]

We see the Nakedness of the father defined here in Leviticus:

8 The nakedness of your father's wife you shall not uncover; it is your father's nakedness.

[h=4]Leviticus 20:11 NKJV[/h] The man who lies with his father's wife has uncovered his father's nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

 

[Nautilus]

For her to have two children from Adam she would have needed to conceived twice.

1. She would not necessarily need to conceive twice. It depends on if the twins are monozygotic or dizygotic.

2. It wasn't eating the fruit, it was disobeying God. But focusing on just eating the fruit makes your argument stronger I get it, though it's dishonest.

 

[mystdancer50]

Not so fast, read my last post. God can be delicate in describing such sensitive things.

Since Jesus said that seeing Him means we've seen the Father, I have never known Jesus to mince words or be delicate. The thing is, when the angels slept with women, it was plainly written. I can tell you with absolute authority that Eve did not sleep with satan. How do I know? Because the Bible doesn't say she did. As I pointed out earlier, when someone is referred to being the child of the devil, it means that they are serving and following him, not that satan had sex with their mother, so to use that reference to Cain belonging or being of the devil does not work for the "Eve slept with satan" defense. If it did, that would mean that the Pharisees mothers all slept with satan, too, since Jesus said their fathers were the devil.

 

[PlainWord]

Since Jesus said that seeing Him means we've seen the Father, I have never known Jesus to mince words or be delicate. The thing is, when the angels slept with women, it was plainly written. I can tell you with absolute authority that Eve did not sleep with satan. How do I know? Because the Bible doesn't say she did. As I pointed out earlier, when someone is referred to being the child of the devil, it means that they are serving and following him, not that satan had sex with their mother, so to use that reference to Cain belonging or being of the devil does not work for the "Eve slept with satan" defense. If it did, that would mean that the Pharisees mothers all slept with satan, too, since Jesus said their fathers were the devil.

Or they could be descendants of Cain too. I'm not saying they were, but God keeps track of everyone's genealogy, wouldn't you agree?

Your argument about "God would have told us" fails for a number of reasons. God never tells us the Jesus comes back before the Tribulation to Rapture Christians off to heaven, nor does He teach Jesus returns two more times. You won't find a single verse that teaches any of that but a majority of Christians believe it as much as they believe in the Virgin Birth. The Pre-Trib Rapture is pure speculation and does not exist as an independent teaching.

God does not teach us everything but He teaches us things we need to know. We know very little about the Pre-Flood period that last 1,600 years. We have only 6 chapters devoted to the Pre-Flood, 1,600 year era. There are more chapters dealing with Abraham (ONE MAN) than 1,600 years of history. Likewise, we have very little about the 1,000 year millennial reign. We have 8 chapters in Ezekiel than a verse here and there, but there is great debate about whether or not there will be mortals side-by-side with those in Glorified bodies, whether or not there will be death during this period, etc.

Again, we are told what we need to know so perhaps God spared us all the dirty details like he did concerning Ham and Noah's wife.

 

[PlainWord]

Let's look at Fact for a moment.

1. Adam and Eve were naked after their encounter with Satan.
2. Immediately God puts enmity (separation) between Eve's seed and Satan's seed.
3. Cain is NOT in Adam's genealogy. Adam's genealogy starts with Seth, the 3rd son (Abel was killed without kids)
4. God destroys the planet specifically because his creation was compromised by fallen angels sleeping with humans.

Every one is free to draw their own conclusions about the apple.

 

[shrimp]

How about elsewhere in the Bible: Does the entire Bible support your claim? Let's both provide at least two scriptures that support our arguments, aside from the text being discussed.

Since we are going over the "original sin", we should back up to chapter 2.
We all know that this chapter tells of God creating the garden and the trees. The trees are what I wish to focus on, as they are an important key to what happened.
Chapter 2:9
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

I present the following statements:
God is not a liar. If the trees were not real, He would not have brought it up. Just like the "many mansions" Jesus spoke of:
John 14:2[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In my Father's house are many mansions: [/FONT]if it were not so, I would have told you[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]. I go to prepare a place for you.[/FONT]

Therefore, recognizing that the trees were in fact trees, not illustration as some would say, and that, said trees had specific properties (Life and the Knowledge of Good and Evil) and that these trees and many others bore fruit:
Chapter 2:16-17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I shall stop here and reiterate what Myst has said, though with my own words:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If God wants us to know the truth He tells us, whether it is nice or not. Tamar was raped by her brother's brother, Infanticide was a common practice among many peoples, wars happened throughout the Bible some in [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]gruesome detail, Jesus was crucified (He didn't mince words there). There are many more examples but I think we all get the point.[/FONT]

 

[PlainWord]

Chapter 2:9
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Dear Shrimp.

You have to read things exactly as they are written. Quoting the verse you cited above, do you see that the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good an evil were already in the garden? Notice the semicolon?

God is not a liar. If the trees were not real, He would not have brought it up. Just like the "many mansions" Jesus spoke of:

You are right, God is NOT a liar, but He uses symbolism all the time. For example, do we really drink the blood of Jesus and eat His flesh or are we using crackers and wine or grape juice to symbolize?

Rev 17:

5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Do you see this entity as the Top Madam of the world in a literal sense or does this represent all Idol worship and sin?

Jesus is referred to as the Tree of Life. He is also referred to as "THE WORD." Jesus is also called a LAMB. Jesus is also called, the Way, the Truth and the Life." He is AKA the Bread of Life. See what I mean????

Tamar was raped by her brother's brother, Infanticide was a common practice among many peoples, wars happened throughout the Bible some in gruesome detail, Jesus was crucified (He didn't mince words there). There are many more examples but I think we all get the point.

You are correct, sometimes the story is more clearly told. My example about Ham sleeping with his mother is more germane as you have Moses telling it just a few chapters apart.

 

[Nautilus]

1. She would not necessarily need to conceive twice. It depends on if the twins are monozygotic or dizygotic.

2. It wasn't eating the fruit, it was disobeying God. But focusing on just eating the fruit makes your argument stronger I get it, though it's dishonest.

I love it when posters ignore actual arguments to their theories that they cant answer and still twist to fit their diseased doctrine.

 

[p_rehbein]

It's true. I know everyone thinks Eve ate a piece of fruit and gave it to Adam. But John teaches us specifically that Cain was the son of Satan.

1 John 3 teaches us this:

...not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.

That's just silly............and not even close to a mature understanding of Scripture.........good grief......Jesus spoke of people who rejected Him as being of the devil, of serving their master............BUT HE didn't mean Lucifer had sex with all of their mothers.................good grief..........

 

[Isdaniel]

That's just silly............and not even close to a mature understanding of Scripture.........good grief......Jesus spoke of people who rejected Him as being of the devil, of serving their master............BUT HE didn't mean Lucifer had sex with all of their mothers.................good grief..........

Silly wabbit trix are for kids he cannot understand

 

[Isdaniel]

Dear Shrimp.

You have to read things exactly as they are written. Quoting the verse you cited above, do you see that the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good an evil were already in the garden? Notice the semicolon?



You are right, God is NOT a liar, but He uses symbolism all the time. For example, do we really drink the blood of Jesus and eat His flesh or are we using crackers and wine or grape juice to symbolize?

Rev 17:

5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Do you see this entity as the Top Madam of the world in a literal sense or does this represent all Idol worship and sin?

Jesus is referred to as the Tree of Life. He is also referred to as "THE WORD." Jesus is also called a LAMB. Jesus is also called, the Way, the Truth and the Life." He is AKA the Bread of Life. See what I mean????



You are correct, sometimes the story is more clearly told. My example about Ham sleeping with his mother is more germane as you have Moses telling it just a few chapters apart.

What is this tree in the kingdom it is not God

[h=3]Revelation 22[/h]King James Version (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

[Isdaniel]

Dear Shrimp.

You have to read things exactly as they are written. Quoting the verse you cited above, do you see that the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good an evil were already in the garden? Notice the semicolon?



You are right, God is NOT a liar, but He uses symbolism all the time. For example, do we really drink the blood of Jesus and eat His flesh or are we using crackers and wine or grape juice to symbolize?

Rev 17:

5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Do you see this entity as the Top Madam of the world in a literal sense or does this represent all Idol worship and sin?

Jesus is referred to as the Tree of Life. He is also referred to as "THE WORD." Jesus is also called a LAMB. Jesus is also called, the Way, the Truth and the Life." He is AKA the Bread of Life. See what I mean????



You are correct, sometimes the story is more clearly told. My example about Ham sleeping with his mother is more germane as you have Moses telling it just a few chapters apart.

God placed a tree to guard the tree of life hmmm or as you say Jesus but Jesus left Heaven How is that possible are you for real to believe this serpent seed folly

 

[PlainWord]

I love it when posters ignore actual arguments to their theories that they cant answer and still twist to fit their diseased doctrine.

I wasn't ignoring you, I actually had to leave and do some work. As for whether or not the twins were monozygotic or dizygotic, we will never know. I doubt Moses knew. For you to call my doctrine "diseased" is a bit harsh coming from a Christian.

I made clear from the start that this was a theory. I am not teaching it as an absolute Biblical truth as many who preach the Pre-Trib Rapture nonsense teach it as truth. I laid out my case using scripture that I feel supports my argument. I don't understand why people would be offended by offering up their views on a topic like this.

After all, Adam and Eve's sin was apparently bad enough to curse the entire world. And while disobeying God is sin it is a rather common sin that we see many in the Bible do without such harsh judgment. Heck, most if not all of us disobey the voice of God from time to time. Now if Adam and Eve did something perverted with Satan or if they worshiped Satan I could see God being very upset with them.

Bottom line is everyone is free to believe what they want. Those who like the apple story, stick to it. Those who have always been bothered by the punishment not seeming to fit the crime, here's an alternative theory for what may have really happened in the garden. Believe as you wish, this is not a big issue that will cause anyone problems unlike the Pre-Trib Rapture theory which is absolutely dangerous.

 

[PlainWord]

That's just silly............and not even close to a mature understanding of Scripture.........good grief......Jesus spoke of people who rejected Him as being of the devil, of serving their master............BUT HE didn't mean Lucifer had sex with all of their mothers.................good grief..........

I love how some people can read what someone writes and twist the whole thing then attempt to belittle the author. I said Satan may have slept with Adam and Eve which resulted in Satan being the father of Cain. I did NOT say Satan slept with everyone's mothers ---- so good grief to you!!!

Perhaps you have a better theory as to why God would immediately put an enmity between Eve's seed and Satan's seed and why Cain is not listed in the genealogy of Adam. If you have some thoughts on this, please share.