Women Keep Silent (Please Don't Derail)

[oldhermit]

For you naysayers that think I'm taking things out of context. This principle of the husband and the woman is illustrated here in Romans 7.

In the first 3 verses of Romans 7, Paul is giving the earthly example of how a woman is bound to the law of her husband as long as her husband lives. If the husband dies, then the wife is free to marry another.All of this is an Old Testament shadow of the real thing to come in Christ.
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.


In verses 4 - 6, Paul is showing us the New Testament meaning of verses 1-3.


Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

We are dead to the law because our flesh has been crucified with Christ. Our soul, the woman, is free to marry another... Christ, our new husband. We are no longer bound to the law when we are in Christ.

Your application is wrong. How on earth are you attempting to apply this to women's role in the Church? This is absurd.

 

[KJV1611]

Your application is wrong. How on earth are you attempting to apply this to women's role in the Church? This is absurd.

I see what you're saying. No,the Romans post had nothing to with the womans role in the church. It's just an example of how the husband is Christ and the woman is the believer. I believe the husband and wife in Corinthians is Christ and the woman also. Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse the issue.

 

[oldhermit]

I see what you're saying. No,the Romans post had nothing to with the womans role in the church. It's just an example of how the husband is Christ and the woman is the believer. I believe the husband and wife in Corinthians is Christ and the woman also. Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse the issue.

Your basic idea is correct but, your terminology is what is confusing. If this is the focus of our argument, it would be best if you would use the concept of the feminine and the masculine as opposed to the man and the woman. This is an entirely different concept.

 

[KJV1611]

Your basic idea is correct but, your terminology is what is confusing. If this is the focus of our argument, it would be best if you would use the concept of the feminine and the masculine as opposed to the man and the woman. This is an entirely different concept.

Not quite following you oldhermit, and trust me I want to understand what you're saying because I don't want to confuse this for others. What do you mean by masculine and feminine?

 

[oldhermit]

Not quite following you oldhermit, and trust me I want to understand what you're saying because I don't want to confuse this for others. What do you mean by masculine and feminine?

The idea of masculine and feminine represent the idea of the subordinate and dominate roles. Man and woman is merely a reflection of this concept and does not represent it entirely. While the Church is feminine thus occupies the subordinate role, it is not woman. While God is always represented in the dominate position, he is not man.

 

[Angela53510]

Well, this post sounds somewhat like the interpretations of Augustine and allegory that is totally made up in the interpreter's mind. You would have fit very well into the 3 and 4th centuries of the church. I wish I could remember some of the absurd allegories that existed in that era of the church, which no one has ever heard of again, simply because they were so untrue.

I think you are taking the metaphor of the church (plural) being the bride of Christ, and misapplying it. By saying that Paul was writing this as a metaphor simply does not hold up.

1 Corinthians should be led in light of all of the book of 1st Corinthians, and to a lesser extent, 2 Corinthians and of course the rest of Paul's writing.

Women keeping silent in church was an instruction to that church, in that time, and maybe to a specific woman.

"For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." 1 Cor. 14:35

Notice it says "A" woman.

I am planning to do a whole post on this sometime in the near future. Get into the Greek a bit, and such.

But not a twisted allegory, I promise!

 

[oldhermit]

Well, this post sounds somewhat like the interpretations of Augustine and allegory that is totally made up in the interpreter's mind. You would have fit very well into the 3 and 4th centuries of the church. I wish I could remember some of the absurd allegories that existed in that era of the church, which no one has ever heard of again, simply because they were so untrue.

I think you are taking the metaphor of the church (plural) being the bride of Christ, and misapplying it. By saying that Paul was writing this as a metaphor simply does not hold up.

1 Corinthians should be led in light of all of the book of 1st Corinthians, and to a lesser extent, 2 Corinthians and of course the rest of Paul's writing.

Women keeping silent in church was an instruction to that church, in that time, and maybe to a specific woman.

"For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." 1 Cor. 14:35

Notice it says "A" woman.

I am planning to do a whole post on this sometime in the near future. Get into the Greek a bit, and such.

But not a twisted allegory, I promise!

I think it is without question that your skill in the Greek is superior to mine however, αἱ γυναῖκες is not indefinite nor is it single. It is "the women." The question of what women is already established as those in the assembly.

 

[GreenNnice]

[TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1135 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]gynaiki[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]γυναικὶ
[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]for a woman
[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-DFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[oldhermit]

I think it is without question that your skill in the Greek is superior to mine however, αἱ γυναῖκες is not indefinite nor is it single. It is "the women." The question of what women is already established as those in the assembly.

Ok. I see. You were looking at verse 35. This is singular indefinite. I was looking in verse 34 which reads αἱ γυναῖκες - definite plural. "The women are to keep silent in the churches - This is locative of position which tells us where they are to keep silent.

 

[KJV1611]

The idea of masculine and feminine represent the idea of the subordinate and dominate roles. Man and woman is merely a reflection of this concept and does not represent it entirely. While the Church is feminine thus occupies the subordinate role, it is not woman. While God is always represented in the dominate position, he is not man.

I see what you're saying Oldhermit, but I think there is more to it than just masculine and feminine. This is pretty deep, and if you don't agree with it, that's ok. But I would like to show you what God has shown me through the pages of the bible.

We are made up of body, soul and spirit, all three are joined together in one.

The body (flesh) in scripture is the man.
The soul in scripture is the woman (Psa_34:2).

The body (flesh) rules over the woman (soul), and she is subservient to him as long as they are joined together. But, when we accept Christ as savior, our body (flesh) is crucified with Christ... the husband is dead. Now the woman (soul) is free to marry (become one flesh with) the man Christ.

 

[oldhermit]

I see what you're saying Oldhermit, but I think there is more to it than just masculine and feminine. This is pretty deep, and if you don't agree with it, that's ok. But I would like to show you what God has shown me through the pages of the bible.

We are made up of body, soul and spirit, all three are joined together in one.

The body (flesh) in scripture is the man.
The soul in scripture is the woman (Psa_34:2).

The body (flesh) rules over the woman (soul), and she is subservient to him as long as they are joined together. But, when we accept Christ as savior, our body (flesh) is crucified with Christ... the husband is dead. Now the woman (soul) is free to marry (become one flesh with) the man Christ.

How does this idea in any way overturn the prohibition placed upon women in the assembly?

 

[GreenNnice]

There is no "prohibition" for women to NEVER be able to preach or teach in the assembly,that's Paul's words, too, or, do you hear him say the word, 'never' ever ? That's man's word, and, God can call a particular woman to be more than a 'woman' of the church.

But, yeah, Christ is the groom to His bride, the church. Though the word does not appear in Scripture, He IS our husband, for Scripture does, indeed, say we are the bride of Christ, in so many words, which puts EVERYTHING all unsaid, in so many words, said

--------------------But, not to COMPLETELY de-rail, so, let's let you interpret this verse, KJVer1611:

"For I am (God) jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."


And, you should be proud of me, bro, I even used the KJV version for you

 

[KJV1611]

How does this idea in any way overturn the prohibition placed upon women in the assembly?

I am not trying to say that women are not to be silent in church, in fact the bible makes it abundantly clear that the women should be silent in church.

 

[notuptome]

Why are going to abandon the literal for the figurative? When do we cross the line from the figurative to the purely speculative?

Not all women are unruly and disruptive in church. Only those who are need to be silent in church and inquire of their husbands at home.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[oldhermit]

Why are going to abandon the literal for the figurative? When do we cross the line from the figurative to the purely speculative?

Not all women are unruly and disruptive in church. Only those who are need to be silent in church and inquire of their husbands at home.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

This does not have anything to do with women being unruly or disruptive. This has to do with divinely established positions and roles within the Church.

 

[KJV1611]

There is no "prohibition" for women to NEVER be able to preach or teach in the assembly,that's Paul's words, too, or, do you hear him say the word, 'never' ever ? That's man's word, and, Christ is the 'groom,' though the word does not appear in Scripture, He IS our husband, for Scripture does, indeed, say we are the 'bride of Christ,' which puts EVERYTHING all unsaid, in so many words, said

--------------------But, not to COMPLETELY de-rail, so, let's let you interpret this verse, KJVer1611:

"For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."


And, you should be proud of me, bro, I even used the KJV version for you

Lol.. I'm proud.

What's not to understand about that verse? Each of us are espoused to one husband Christ. It's talking about the same thing as Romans.

Rom_7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

By the way, did you know that the monster energy drink logo is vav, vav, vav or 666.

 

[2Thewaters]

The holy spirit is the only one who can interpret the verse correctly.
When we have an argument on a text it is because neither person has the holy spirit

This is an example of the pagan monk interpretatin of the kjv and NIV Bibles.

The problem is it went from aramaic into greek then into English taking on the color of three translators.

When you have a question, the first thing to do is to pray for God's holy spirit to show you what the verse means. There is only one meaning of a verse, with infinite applications, so he has to tell you what applies here.

I did not see the correct interpretation yet

The Word of God is always love, and the enemy when inspires people always brings wrangling into it

 

[KJV1611]

Why are going to abandon the literal for the figurative? When do we cross the line from the figurative to the purely speculative?

Not all women are unruly and disruptive in church. Only those who are need to be silent in church and inquire of their husbands at home.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger, it is not that they are unruly and disruptive in church, God is teaching a spiritual lesson to us. Learn from our husband Christ in the pages of the bible. We can not grow spiritually by other believers teaching us, we have to get alone with Jesus and the bible and let him teach us.

 

[2Thewaters]

The way to understand is to
1. Pray for the holy spirit
2. Realize there are no contradictions in the Bible
3. Pick the meaning that has no contradictions.
The ones with contradictions are false

4. Read other translations not colored by bigots, the universal sin church (everything they do is sin, against the word of God), they dont allow women ministers, when the Bible clearly teaches that they are ok.
So the translators didnt want to get burned at the stake like other Bible believers so they olored it for women to to not speak

pay attention to the verse
Let us read it from a translation from the ORIGINAL letter of Paul directly to English.

And if they wish to be informed on any subject, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is unbecoming for women to speak in the assembly.

It is shameful for anyone to speak during the assembly

this is nothing about men or women
it is about haveing a bible study on the side while the preacher is talking...

The enemy has used this to cause much difficulty, and he always twists the scripture

Do your Bible studies at home if you want to learn something dont talk in church!

men and women!

The holy spirit brings to mind a church in corinth who had a women pastor

so this is not about women being pastor.

This is the word of the Lord.

 

[notuptome]

This does not have anything to do with women being unruly or disruptive. This has to do with divinely established positions and roles within the Church.

The context of 1 Cor 14 is clearly church order in contrast to confusion. 1 Tim 2 advances to teaching but it still contributes to order and discipline.

For the cause of Christ
Roger