The Israel of God
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hmmm love this psalm
[h=3]Psalm 83[/h]King James Version (KJV)
1 Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
2 For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
8 Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.
9 Do unto them as unto the Midianites; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook of Kison:
10 Which perished at Endor: they became as dung for the earth.
11 Make their nobles like Oreb, and like Zeeb: yea, all their princes as Zebah, and as Zalmunna:
12 Who said, Let us take to ourselves the houses of God in possession.
13 O my God, make them like a wheel; as the stubble before the wind.
14 As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire;
15 So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm.
16 Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O Lord.
17 Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:
18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.
[h=3]Psalm 83[/h]King James Version (KJV)
1 Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
2 For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
8 Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.
9 Do unto them as unto the Midianites; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook of Kison:
10 Which perished at Endor: they became as dung for the earth.
11 Make their nobles like Oreb, and like Zeeb: yea, all their princes as Zebah, and as Zalmunna:
12 Who said, Let us take to ourselves the houses of God in possession.
13 O my God, make them like a wheel; as the stubble before the wind.
14 As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire;
15 So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm.
16 Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O Lord.
17 Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:
18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.
really
yes, it is very likely.
....
Galatians 4
26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
yes, it is very likely.
....
Galatians 4
26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
really
yes, it is very likely.
....
Galatians 4
26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
yes, it is very likely.
....
Galatians 4
26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
Have a psalm okay
[h=3]Psalm 14:7[/h]King James Version (KJV)
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
B
Zone
Israel will never be completely destroyed but you would never chide or condemn the action of those countries who take up arms aginst them because you believe they have justifiable cause. You know darn well that there will never be lasting peace in that region no matter what treaty is signed. This is why Israel, as small as they are, must arm themselves to the teeth to protect themselves from these dictators who are very crafty and deceitful in their strategies against Israel. I have no empathy for these dictators or religious zealots who want to destroy any memory of the nation of Israel.
Israel will never be completely destroyed but you would never chide or condemn the action of those countries who take up arms aginst them because you believe they have justifiable cause. You know darn well that there will never be lasting peace in that region no matter what treaty is signed. This is why Israel, as small as they are, must arm themselves to the teeth to protect themselves from these dictators who are very crafty and deceitful in their strategies against Israel. I have no empathy for these dictators or religious zealots who want to destroy any memory of the nation of Israel.
stop pretending you know me.
stop assigning your thoughts to me.
that appears to be the pattern.
there's no peace treaty in Daniel 9 or anywhere else.
you can not make the critical distinction between Israel and Israel.
the military political scene is your religion.
you don't know who is who.
i can't help you with that.
it's brainwashing. if the Holy Spirit isn't leading you out of deception and into Truth, i don't know what to say.
i know it's a sin for you to consider anything other than your belief system.
can't help ya.
i believe i talked about the common people.
where is your balanced view?
this is why i take the unpopular view, while you take the dispensationalist zealot view.
Netanyahu is a crazed dictator who gets counsel from, and works for, religious zealots.
i know studying history would be a sin for you.
...
just out of curiosity Red, aside from all the above, what is your response to this (simplified for you):
The Israel of God
(Galatians 6:16)
by Michael Marlowe, Dec. 2004.
14 ἐμοὶ δὲ μὴ γένοιτο καυχᾶσθαι εἰ μὴ ἐν τῷ σταυρῷ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, δι᾽ οὗ ἐμοὶ κόσμος ἐσταύρωται κἀγὼ κόσμῳ. 15 οὔτε γὰρ περιτομή τί ἐστιν οὔτε ἀκροβυστία, ἀλλὰ καινὴ κτίσις. 16 καὶ ὅσοι τῷ κανόνι τούτῳ στοιχήσουσιν, εἰρήνη ἐπ᾽ αὐτοὺς καὶ ἔλεος, καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ.
14 But far be it from me to boast, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
The phrase has become controversial because the traditional interpretation conflicts with principles of interpretation associated with Dispensationalism.
Dispensationalists are interested in maintaining a sharp distinction between "Israel" and "the Church" across a whole range of theological matters pertaining to prophecy, ecclesiology, and soteriology.
They are not comfortable with the idea that here Paul is using the phrase "Israel of God" in a sense that includes Gentiles, because this undermines their contention that "the Church" is always carefully distinguished from "Israel" in Scripture.
This is a major tenet of dispensationalist hermeneutics. C.I. Scofield in his tract, Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth (New York, Loizeaux Brothers, 1888) wrote, "Comparing, then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, [a careful Bible student ] finds that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct, and future destiny--all is contrast."
Likewise Charles Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism Today (Chicago, 1965) explained that the "basic premise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity." (pp. 44-45).
...
i'm not interested in discussing anything else with you today but this short piece.
1) is God pursuing two purposes expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity (Ryrie)?
2) in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct, and future destiny-- is all is contrast between the two peoples mentioned in #1, Israel and the Church (Scofield)?
3) in Galatians 6:16, did Paul say The Israel of God were those who boast in the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, and are a new creation?
4) how many The Israels of God are there?
...
only interested in your view on the above, nothing else.
thanks.
stop assigning your thoughts to me.
that appears to be the pattern.
there's no peace treaty in Daniel 9 or anywhere else.
you can not make the critical distinction between Israel and Israel.
the military political scene is your religion.
you don't know who is who.
i can't help you with that.
it's brainwashing. if the Holy Spirit isn't leading you out of deception and into Truth, i don't know what to say.
i know it's a sin for you to consider anything other than your belief system.
can't help ya.
i believe i talked about the common people.
where is your balanced view?
this is why i take the unpopular view, while you take the dispensationalist zealot view.
Netanyahu is a crazed dictator who gets counsel from, and works for, religious zealots.
i know studying history would be a sin for you.
...
just out of curiosity Red, aside from all the above, what is your response to this (simplified for you):
The Israel of God
(Galatians 6:16)
by Michael Marlowe, Dec. 2004.
14 ἐμοὶ δὲ μὴ γένοιτο καυχᾶσθαι εἰ μὴ ἐν τῷ σταυρῷ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, δι᾽ οὗ ἐμοὶ κόσμος ἐσταύρωται κἀγὼ κόσμῳ. 15 οὔτε γὰρ περιτομή τί ἐστιν οὔτε ἀκροβυστία, ἀλλὰ καινὴ κτίσις. 16 καὶ ὅσοι τῷ κανόνι τούτῳ στοιχήσουσιν, εἰρήνη ἐπ᾽ αὐτοὺς καὶ ἔλεος, καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ.
14 But far be it from me to boast, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
The phrase has become controversial because the traditional interpretation conflicts with principles of interpretation associated with Dispensationalism.
Dispensationalists are interested in maintaining a sharp distinction between "Israel" and "the Church" across a whole range of theological matters pertaining to prophecy, ecclesiology, and soteriology.
They are not comfortable with the idea that here Paul is using the phrase "Israel of God" in a sense that includes Gentiles, because this undermines their contention that "the Church" is always carefully distinguished from "Israel" in Scripture.
This is a major tenet of dispensationalist hermeneutics. C.I. Scofield in his tract, Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth (New York, Loizeaux Brothers, 1888) wrote, "Comparing, then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, [a careful Bible student ] finds that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct, and future destiny--all is contrast."
Likewise Charles Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism Today (Chicago, 1965) explained that the "basic premise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity." (pp. 44-45).
...
i'm not interested in discussing anything else with you today but this short piece.
1) is God pursuing two purposes expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity (Ryrie)?
2) in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct, and future destiny-- is all is contrast between the two peoples mentioned in #1, Israel and the Church (Scofield)?
3) in Galatians 6:16, did Paul say The Israel of God were those who boast in the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, and are a new creation?
4) how many The Israels of God are there?
...
only interested in your view on the above, nothing else.
thanks.
B
You have not been short in what you have communicated over the pages of this site and our words have a distinct way of conveying who we are and how we think.
I am not asking or interested in you helping me in this because of your habit of being delusional.
Common people can get out, if not they can revolt and protest or they can remove the existing leaders. Back in the 80's there was a tremendous influx of people into the US from many of these Persian speaking nations of Iran and Iraq. Met a few of them in Germany that couldn't wait to transition into the states and away from the Ayatollah Khomeini.
This is how you justify your bent concerning Israel because you do not want them to succeed as a people or a nation. You believe that God has rejected them as a nation and people forever especially those who have remained in unbelief. I disagree and believe that God, despite their unbelief and transgression is going to restore them at the second coming based upon his promise and his faithfulness to that promise. Put that one in your peace pipe if you dare.
It's not sin, it's interesting and informative, but the dogma attached to it by some is outrageous.
I don't have a problem or conflict with verse 14 and I believe in dispensational truth. (my connotations)
I have no problem with making a distinction between the Jew (Israel in unbelief), the Gentile (World in unbelief) and the church (Jew & Gentile who have believed in the cross of Christ). These three groups exist today as they have since the inception of the church. This is not difficult.
These are the questions that you love to debate and have been debating for years and I will not give you that platform. You can insert and believe the way you want and have persuaded yourself concerning these, but I disagree with you. We won't be discussing these because their will be no merit or benefit in doing so civilly or otherwise. You will have to reckon these with others because it will not be with me.
I am not asking or interested in you helping me in this because of your habit of being delusional.
Common people can get out, if not they can revolt and protest or they can remove the existing leaders. Back in the 80's there was a tremendous influx of people into the US from many of these Persian speaking nations of Iran and Iraq. Met a few of them in Germany that couldn't wait to transition into the states and away from the Ayatollah Khomeini.
This is how you justify your bent concerning Israel because you do not want them to succeed as a people or a nation. You believe that God has rejected them as a nation and people forever especially those who have remained in unbelief. I disagree and believe that God, despite their unbelief and transgression is going to restore them at the second coming based upon his promise and his faithfulness to that promise. Put that one in your peace pipe if you dare.
It's not sin, it's interesting and informative, but the dogma attached to it by some is outrageous.
I don't have a problem or conflict with verse 14 and I believe in dispensational truth. (my connotations)
I have no problem with making a distinction between the Jew (Israel in unbelief), the Gentile (World in unbelief) and the church (Jew & Gentile who have believed in the cross of Christ). These three groups exist today as they have since the inception of the church. This is not difficult.
These are the questions that you love to debate and have been debating for years and I will not give you that platform. You can insert and believe the way you want and have persuaded yourself concerning these, but I disagree with you. We won't be discussing these because their will be no merit or benefit in doing so civilly or otherwise. You will have to reckon these with others because it will not be with me.
Hi Red:
1) is God pursuing two purposes expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity (Ryrie)?
2) in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct, and future destiny-- is all is contrast between the two peoples mentioned in #1, Israel and the Church (Scofield)?
3) in Galatians 6:16, did Paul say The Israel of God were those who boast in the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, and are a new creation?
4) how many The Israels of God are there?
so the very foundation of your beliefs, you are unable and unwilling to address. because you can't.
anyone even glancing at the simple progression of the faulty system (1, 2, 3, 4 above) can see why it is wrong, but with so much invested now, so much damage done, it longer matters.
so every other possible defense mechanism is employed...perfectly conditioned.
sheer grit and dogmatism is the only alternative. fill ye up.
1) is God pursuing two purposes expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity (Ryrie)?
2) in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct, and future destiny-- is all is contrast between the two peoples mentioned in #1, Israel and the Church (Scofield)?
3) in Galatians 6:16, did Paul say The Israel of God were those who boast in the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, and are a new creation?
4) how many The Israels of God are there?
so the very foundation of your beliefs, you are unable and unwilling to address. because you can't.
anyone even glancing at the simple progression of the faulty system (1, 2, 3, 4 above) can see why it is wrong, but with so much invested now, so much damage done, it longer matters.
so every other possible defense mechanism is employed...perfectly conditioned.
sheer grit and dogmatism is the only alternative. fill ye up.
H
To BradC, you need to answer Zone and defend the "eternal distinction between the nation of Israsel and the Church" Where do you see any "unsaved" people in /on the new earth? It is very clear from all the N.T.: the Church has its eternal dwelling on the new EARTH. not Heaven. The New Jersusalem is only the spiritual "Israel of God" (no unsaved Jews); the "12 tribes of Israel" and all the "tribes of the Gentiltes", make up the Church of God, no distinction.. Disp. is dead wrong on this point! And ALL are wrong on faith only salvation. Sal.is by repentance, faith and holiness (faith and good works) Hoffco
B
Break down the following passage grammatically and see what you come up with. How many groups are being referred to and who are they? I will underline the nouns, pronouns and proper names that refer to people and you can identify who they refer to. Have fun you just might learn something.
13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
