hi konroh
it's cool that you're addressing it. t.y.
"Comparing, then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, [a careful Bible student] finds that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct, and future destiny--all is contrast." - C.I. Scofield
There absolutely is contrast: origin, Abraham versus Spirit-indwelling Pentecost; promise-land, nation, blessing vs. bride of Christ, worship-Mosaic covenent vs. "worship in spirit and in truth; principles of conduct-Mosaic Law vs. royal law of Christ, future destiny-promised spiritual and physical rulership, reign with Christ.
But there absolutely is similarity: origin-called by God; promise-all nations blessed, Jew and Gentile; worship-the Lord our God, the Lord is One, to the only Eternal Wise One be blessing; principles of conduct-"Be ye holy as I am holy, future destinty-New Jerusalem with tribes of Israel on the gates and 12 apostles foundation stones for wall
so you are amending what is said here:
1) "Comparing, then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, [a careful Bible student] finds that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct,
and future destiny--all is contrast." - C.I. Scofield
so in future destiny,
all is not contrast...would you agree that is actually opposed to the Gospel?
since i agree totally with you
here:
But there absolutely is similarity: origin-called by God; promise-all nations blessed, Jew and Gentile; worship-the Lord our God, the Lord is One, to the only Eternal Wise One be blessing; principles of conduct-"Be ye holy as I am holy, future destinty-New Jerusalem with tribes of Israel on the gates and 12 apostles foundation stones for wall
isn't that "the future destiny" (already in place; Promise fulfilled; 2000 years ago) to which
ISRAEL was called?
so what purpose is it to comb OT prophecies trying to find some future destiny which is in contrast to the church (which is only SAVED ISRAEL expanded), the very Promise
they were given?
was that the Promise they were given?
well sure it is.
it's right here:
Daniel 9
Gabriel's Prophecy of the Seventy Weeks
20And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God; 21Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 22And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 23At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
24
Seventy weeks are determined
upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
that's long over.
those is Jacob who repented were sought out (or were sought out and repented, if we want to go to election); and called; and saved; and made a kingdom and priests; and taught us all the New Way; and were first called Christians at Antioch:
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes:
first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
and the gentiles are grafted in: "then to the Gentile"
and so, according to the Promise made to Abraham and his SEED (that He would be Heir of the world); he became the father of a great nation (which was fulfilled in Israel in Egypt, and is being fulfilled now - in Christ
, His Church, which was Israel's promise)
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
...
and then:
the "basic premise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity."
- Charles Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism Today (Chicago, 1965)
I would probably amend this to say that God has a singular purpose in forming a people of God but that this singular purpose is seen to be played out with both spiritual and physical emphases.
okay....so that's a big amendment and one i agree with, because that is actually what the bible says:
Ephesians 2:15
14For He Himself is our peace, who
made both groups
into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that
in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16and might
reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
it says this
was accomplished
through the cross.
so can we even hold on to anything Scofield and Ryrie said concerning the eternal distinction?
because in reality, we know that entire system was originally based on two eternally distinct people with
two eternal destinations: one on earth, and one in heaven.
so what happens with Dispensationalism is that it keeps getting amended (and rightly so), (Progressive Dispensationalsim etc etc).....because it is evident it is actually not just error, but is the absolute
opposite of everything the Bible claims.
it's the Promise to Abraham that we have to look back at; and that's the very place (Gen 12:3) guys like John Hagee throw the switch:
...
"
Everything Christians doshould be based upon the Biblical text. Here are seven solid Bible reasons why Christians should support Israel.
1.
Genesis 12:3 “And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed.” Point: God has promised to bless the man or nation that blesses the Chosen People. History has proven beyond reasonable doubt that the nations that have blessed the Jewish people have had the blessing of God; the nations that have cursed the Jewish people have experienced the curse of God."
Why Christians Should Support Israel | Cufi
okay....Hagee is placing the very
salvation of everyone on this nebulous "blessing the Jewish people" - this is his actual gospel. he believes THAT is what determines one's salvation.
no matter how he denies it, it's right there:
"the curse of God"
but he got that from the Scofield footnotes, where it was inserted by Oxford Press; that very institution established for that very purpose - to print that reference Bible. they combined two passages to strike terror into the hearts of Christian Zionists:
1) the sheep and goats judgement, which the footnotes claims is about how the "nations" (gentiles) treated the jewish people (saved or NOT saved)...in other words, instead of it being the GWT where
individuals are first separated by what
kind they are (saved people in Christ/sheep vs unsaved/goats), the jesus proceeding to say the unsaved did nothing to help the least of those HIS BROTHERS - meaning
christians (jew or gentile)
....Scofield, or rather Oxford press actually wrote into the footnotes that the GWT is a separation of NATIONS - countries...and they are separated and judged based on whether or not they blessed what is essentially now we see,
the State Of Israel
2) together with the corruption of Genesis 12:3 - but that is not what Genesis 12:3 says - it is God speaking to Abram.
look again how they do it [ABRAM] insert mine (read the whole chapter):
1.
Genesis 12:3 “And I will bless them that bless thee [ABRAM] and curse him that curseth thee [ABRAM] ; and in thee [ABRAM's SEED - CHRIST] shall all nations of the earth be blessed.”
what does Hagee do with it (Scofiled and the others before him)?:
Point: God has promised to bless the man or nation that blesses
the Chosen People. History has proven beyond reasonable doubt that
the nations that have blessed the Jewish people have had the blessing of God; the nations that have cursed the Jewish people
have experienced the curse of God." - John Hagee
.....
is that what Genesis says?
this is Idolatry!
they have taken out
the Blessing - CHRIST - and replaced Him (the ULTIMATE REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY) with the State of Israel (which was in the works when the Scofield Bible was arranged, through men like Samuel Untermyer).
they made - the nation State of Israel - the ENTITY through whom all the nations (gentiles) will be blessed.
now this is outrageous...
not because Jesus did
not come through Judah and
not because God forsook His election out of Israel - neither of those things is TRUE.
not because we are now supposed to curse the jews or anyone else!
it is outrageous
because it REPLACED Jesus as the Promise; and placed a curse on the gentiles that God did not DO!
He sent Jesus to BLESS the jews, and to BLESS the gentiles - with an everlasting salvation!
not a State and Dominion in or from this Jerusalem.
if there IS a curse on anyone (see the sheep and goats judgment) it will be on those who KILLED CHRISTIANS and persecuted THEM!
how many times do we ignore this glaring red light issue?
we are apparently willing to go to any length, to bless unbelievers (with an enabling that is not the Gospel; it not saving them; it is not Jesus Christ's message); killing and hurting and displacing CHRISTIANS in the process (even though they continue to cry out WHY? WHY?)
How far do we carry the distinction? Why is New Jerusalem described as with the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles? Why would this be the description? What purpose could there be in continuing the distinction? Are we not all one in Christ and in God and in the Spirit? Yes, but for some reason God emphasizes in His eternal New Jerusalem the twin truths of 12 tribes and 12 apostles. I will maintain the distinction as God does.[/COLOR]
yes we are all of His Household.
but we are in total agreement that God
is KEEPING His promises to them:
"New Jerusalem described as with the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles"
Ephesians 2
A Temple in the Lord
19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but
you are fellow citizens with the saints,
and are of God's household, 20having been
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together,
is growing into a holy temple in the Lord.
now what about these varieties of Dispensationalism that say this promise was NEVER OFFERED TO ISRAEL?
that it excluded them as a commonwealth and a nation?
or that because some rejected Jesus the Kingdom was POSTPONED?
can that possibly be true?
if it is,
this is NOT TRUE, since there is no FOUNDATION:
Ephesians 2
A Temple in the Lord
19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord.
zone
(forgive typos, i'll make shorter posts...ooops)
