Who says that just because one is not looking for an antichrist to come run around the world,setting a one world government,and a third temple built by human hands DOES NOT MEAN we are not looking for Jesus coming back. You all are the ones preaching a NWO and an antichrist appearing. You're the ones LOOKING for the antichrist to appear. We disagree with the WHEN He is coming back and what will HAPPEN BEFORE He comes back.
The Israel of God
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wait....does the whole world see him appear?
or do they just see millions of people vanish?
so, during the 7 years you're in the sky, that's when you are getting rewards and stuff?
what about the ppl who get saved during the trib?
when do they get a crown?
oh....they have to wait for 1,000 years, right?
or do they just see millions of people vanish?
so, during the 7 years you're in the sky, that's when you are getting rewards and stuff?
what about the ppl who get saved during the trib?
when do they get a crown?
oh....they have to wait for 1,000 years, right?
W
Deut 12:9) For ye as yet have not come into the rest and to the inheritance which God giveth you. ( the rest speaking of the land!) (10) But when you go over the Jordan,and dwelling in the land that the lord thy God giveth you to inherit. and when he giveth you rest......(11) Then there shall be a place which the lord thy God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there. (Heb 4:8) For if Joshua had given them rest , then he would not have spoken of another day. So the land was not the true rest ,but only a shadow of the real rest of God. And the land is not the place his name will dwell, again a shadow. (Rev 3:12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall no more go out, and I shall write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God,which is the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God. And I will write upon him my new name. (Rev 21:2) And I John saw the Holy city the New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven, prepared as a bride for her husband(3)....behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them,and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them. (Eph 5:31,32) For this cause man shall leave his father and mother, and be joined unto his wife and the two shall become one flesh(32) This is a Great mystery: But I speak concerning Christ and his church WE are the Bride of Christ!!! WE are the new Jerusalem, WE are the body of Christ. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God? (1 Cor 12:27) Now are ye the body of Christ and members in particular. (Eph 2:22) In whom ye also are built together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.( Eph 3:9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world has been hid in God, who created all things . To the intent that now unto principalities and powers in heavenly places might be made known by the church the manifold wisdom of God.(11) According to his eternal purpose ,which he purposed in Christ. ( Col 1:27).....this mystery among the gentiles which is Christ in you the hope of glory" " But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us"
W
But there are tangible effects of the Kingdom or should be. These come through the measure of the gift of Christ ,scripture says is given to every member this is Christ working in and through us, his earthen vessels. I know there is a big hang up about Gifts of the Spirit but, just because Satan uses false christian to discredited the very means of our life in Christ and its manifestation to the world Doesn't mean his Grace in us doesn't exist. If I were Satan that would be some thing I would try and discredit the most!! Individually and as the church letting the measure of christ in us work is the only work we can do that is not unrighteous, because it Christ working in us ,not ourselves . Our working no matter how goodly intentioned is as filthy rags. Crucified into his death and walk in the newness of life , His life
Chosen,
If Revelation is to be taken LITERALLY please explain how you can fit a 200,000,000 men army into ISREAL,let along Megiddo and the Valley of Jezreel? Please explain how you would get a 200,000,000 men army from East of the Euphrates,without roads,going through a number of mountain ranges and deserts,supplying food and water,and gasoline to support the troops. (By the way the closet country or area with a population base that is large enough to supply those kind of numbers,East of the Euphrates is INDIA over 2,000 miles away if your talking China you have to go through the Himalayas first before going Pakistan,Afghanistan,Iran,Iraq,Jordan or Syria before ever getting to Israel. How would they be able to support all those men with food,water and gasoline over those distances?
If Revelation is to be taken LITERALLY please explain how you can fit a 200,000,000 men army into ISREAL,let along Megiddo and the Valley of Jezreel? Please explain how you would get a 200,000,000 men army from East of the Euphrates,without roads,going through a number of mountain ranges and deserts,supplying food and water,and gasoline to support the troops. (By the way the closet country or area with a population base that is large enough to supply those kind of numbers,East of the Euphrates is INDIA over 2,000 miles away if your talking China you have to go through the Himalayas first before going Pakistan,Afghanistan,Iran,Iraq,Jordan or Syria before ever getting to Israel. How would they be able to support all those men with food,water and gasoline over those distances?
This is why I referenced the heart of the issue several pages ago. I was perhaps too critical of taking Hebrews spiritually since I very much agree we are in an unshaken kingdom, that we are in Christ's kingdom now, that the heavenly Jerusalem trumps the Mosaic covenant. But here's the issue. When I see OT prophecies and evidence in Jesus' words and the epistles and Rev. 20 pointing to a physical and spiritual kingdom, does this really disavow the power of Jesus kingdom now? In other words, I really feel that we're dealing with a misunderstanding here. I think that the OT points to a physical and spiritual kingdom of the Messiah reigning on earth. Are there ways that this is being fulfilled now? Absolutely, and to see all the literal spiritual blessings of New Covenant, Holy Spirit, unshaken kingdom, eternal inheritance certainly give evidence of this.
And here's the heart of the issue, I myself as a Dispensational thinker and having read many of their books, and having attended Dallas Theological Seminary myself, do not disagree with Hebrews and Colossians and Jesus' Commission to further God's kingdom now. That the literal Spiritual kingdom can be conferred on physical people in a very real way. This to me does not and is not against the Dispensational understanding of a future physical and spiritual kingdom. I recognize that this may seem like I'm having my cake and eating it too but again, here's the heart of the issue: Did the OT promise a physical and spiritual kingdom? Yes. Does the New Testament fulfill the promises of this? Yes. Can there be the possibility that there can be promises of a physical and spiritual kingdom yet to be fulfilled? Again, yes.
You don't have to read too far in any Dispensational theology book about the Church and what promises are bestowed on her to see that the literal spiritual understanding of God's and Christ's and the Spirit's kingdom now is not something that Disp. disagrees with. But again, the issue is not whether there is a beautiful, powerful kingdom now, the issue is whether a future real, physical, visible kingdom fully and probably more spiritual than the present kingdom really contradicts the idea of Jesus' kingdom now. We all agree that there is an already, not yet aspect to God's kingdom. We don't presently see all things having been put under Jesus' feet. There will be a culmination to history, to creation, to salvation.
The amillenialist sees the present kingdom as the fulfilling of the OT physical and spiritual promises, yet the way the kingdom is described now in all its spiritual glory is not completely contradictory to the way a premillenialist would understand Christ's kingdom now. But is a future physical and spiritual kingdom which would completely fulfill all the physical and spiritual promises really a contradiction to Christ's kingdom now? Would a Messiah reigning on earth as the Davidic political, national, economic, religious, spiritual, military and ultimate ruler on the earth really contradict the beautiful kingdom now? would it, really? Really?
And here's the heart of the issue, I myself as a Dispensational thinker and having read many of their books, and having attended Dallas Theological Seminary myself, do not disagree with Hebrews and Colossians and Jesus' Commission to further God's kingdom now. That the literal Spiritual kingdom can be conferred on physical people in a very real way. This to me does not and is not against the Dispensational understanding of a future physical and spiritual kingdom. I recognize that this may seem like I'm having my cake and eating it too but again, here's the heart of the issue: Did the OT promise a physical and spiritual kingdom? Yes. Does the New Testament fulfill the promises of this? Yes. Can there be the possibility that there can be promises of a physical and spiritual kingdom yet to be fulfilled? Again, yes.
You don't have to read too far in any Dispensational theology book about the Church and what promises are bestowed on her to see that the literal spiritual understanding of God's and Christ's and the Spirit's kingdom now is not something that Disp. disagrees with. But again, the issue is not whether there is a beautiful, powerful kingdom now, the issue is whether a future real, physical, visible kingdom fully and probably more spiritual than the present kingdom really contradicts the idea of Jesus' kingdom now. We all agree that there is an already, not yet aspect to God's kingdom. We don't presently see all things having been put under Jesus' feet. There will be a culmination to history, to creation, to salvation.
The amillenialist sees the present kingdom as the fulfilling of the OT physical and spiritual promises, yet the way the kingdom is described now in all its spiritual glory is not completely contradictory to the way a premillenialist would understand Christ's kingdom now. But is a future physical and spiritual kingdom which would completely fulfill all the physical and spiritual promises really a contradiction to Christ's kingdom now? Would a Messiah reigning on earth as the Davidic political, national, economic, religious, spiritual, military and ultimate ruler on the earth really contradict the beautiful kingdom now? would it, really? Really?
only here:
Isaiah 51:11
Those the LORD has rescued will return. They will enter Zion with singing; everlasting joy will crown their heads. Gladness and joy will overtake them, and sorrow and sighing will flee away.
Isaiah 65:17
"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
Isaiah 66:22
"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure.
Revelation 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
zone, you quoted Isaiah 65:17 - There are things in further stated in the chapter that really don't fit with the Eternal kingdom -
v20 . . there shall be no more thence an infant of days, - infants? I thought there would be no marriage in the eternal kingdom (Matt. 22:30, Mark 12:25, Luke 20:35)
nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; - death? I thought there would be no more death (Rev. 21:4)
Maybe I am missing something here? Just made me think -
v20 . . there shall be no more thence an infant of days, - infants? I thought there would be no marriage in the eternal kingdom (Matt. 22:30, Mark 12:25, Luke 20:35)
nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; - death? I thought there would be no more death (Rev. 21:4)
Maybe I am missing something here? Just made me think -
But why is it going backwards? Because you say it is? That's my point, would it really be going backwards for Christ to spiritually reign on the earth? This is the opposite of when Jesus says, "You see me and you believe, blessed are those who do not see, and yet believe." So if our Lord and Savior comes and is King on the earth you will say, "Jesus, I really miss the good old days when I didn't see you, when it was just a spiritual kingdom, but now that it's physical and spiritual, it just feels less to me." This is my problem with your argument. You think I'm making a future kingdom less than what this present kingdom is. And I think you're making a mockery of what a future physical and spiritual kingdom could be.
17“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind. 18“But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing
And her people for gladness.
19“I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people;
And there will no longer be heard in her
The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.
20“No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
Or an old man who does not live out his days;
For the youth will die at the age of one hundred
And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred
Will be thought accursed.
21“They will build houses and inhabit them;
They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22“They will not build and another inhabit,
They will not plant and another eat;
For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people,
And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.
23“They will not labor in vain,
Or bear children for calamity;
For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD,
And their descendants with them.
24“It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear. 25“The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the LORD.
This sure seems like a physical, earthly kingdom. Yes, it says new heavens and new earth as a prophetic culmination typical in viewing the future, but while the ultimate picture is of everything made knew, Isaiah also pictures the type of that fulfillment in long life, economic prosperity, social stability, biological peacefulness and spiritual blessing that is a beautiful picture of a physical, earthly kingdom.
17“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind. 18“But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing
And her people for gladness.
19“I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people;
And there will no longer be heard in her
The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.
20“No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
Or an old man who does not live out his days;
For the youth will die at the age of one hundred
And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred
Will be thought accursed.
21“They will build houses and inhabit them;
They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22“They will not build and another inhabit,
They will not plant and another eat;
For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people,
And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.
23“They will not labor in vain,
Or bear children for calamity;
For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD,
And their descendants with them.
24“It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear. 25“The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the LORD.
This sure seems like a physical, earthly kingdom. Yes, it says new heavens and new earth as a prophetic culmination typical in viewing the future, but while the ultimate picture is of everything made knew, Isaiah also pictures the type of that fulfillment in long life, economic prosperity, social stability, biological peacefulness and spiritual blessing that is a beautiful picture of a physical, earthly kingdom.
OK Chosen,
You say we are to take Revelation literally. Let's do a little math on the 200,000,000 man human army
Now how do you fit a 200,000,000 man army in NORTHERN ISRAEL which by the way is only about 5,000 square miles,the southern part of Israel is the Negev desert towards the south.
By the way if you take the 200,000,000 men and evenly put the same number of men per square mile within the 5,000 square miles of northern Israel that's 40,000 men per square mile,not counting equipment,broken done to square feet per man is a 25 square ft or to put it another way a 5 ft x 5 ft area per man is all you have within the 5,000 square miles. Now you also have people saying it will be in Meggido in the valley of Jezreel. At the greatest square mileage they give for the widest measurements for the valley and the plains including is 1,000 square miles which means you are down to a 1 ft x 1 ft square for each and every single man,can you or anyone else please explain how that 200,000,000 human man army can at all be literal?
You say we are to take Revelation literally. Let's do a little math on the 200,000,000 man human army
Now how do you fit a 200,000,000 man army in NORTHERN ISRAEL which by the way is only about 5,000 square miles,the southern part of Israel is the Negev desert towards the south.
By the way if you take the 200,000,000 men and evenly put the same number of men per square mile within the 5,000 square miles of northern Israel that's 40,000 men per square mile,not counting equipment,broken done to square feet per man is a 25 square ft or to put it another way a 5 ft x 5 ft area per man is all you have within the 5,000 square miles. Now you also have people saying it will be in Meggido in the valley of Jezreel. At the greatest square mileage they give for the widest measurements for the valley and the plains including is 1,000 square miles which means you are down to a 1 ft x 1 ft square for each and every single man,can you or anyone else please explain how that 200,000,000 human man army can at all be literal?
zone, you quoted Isaiah 65:17 - There are things in further stated in the chapter that really don't fit with the Eternal kingdom -
v20 . . there shall be no more thence an infant of days, - infants? I thought there would be no marriage in the eternal kingdom (Matt. 22:30, Mark 12:25, Luke 20:35)
nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; - death? I thought there would be no more death (Rev. 21:4)
Maybe I am missing something here? Just made me think -
v20 . . there shall be no more thence an infant of days, - infants? I thought there would be no marriage in the eternal kingdom (Matt. 22:30, Mark 12:25, Luke 20:35)
nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; - death? I thought there would be no more death (Rev. 21:4)
Maybe I am missing something here? Just made me think -
U
Indeed ! .... and Amen !! She is a tireless worker for the sake of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Zone has my utmost admiration, respect and love as well
Hebrews 10
Christ's Sacrifice Once for All
10 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? [SUP]3 [/SUP]But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Consequently, when Christ[SUP][a][/SUP] came into the world, he said,
“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), [SUP]9 [/SUP]then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.[SUP]12[/SUP]But when Christ[SUP][b][/SUP] had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,[SUP]13 [/SUP]waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”
[SUP]17 [/SUP]then he adds,
“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
[SUP]18[/SUP]Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Enjoy this beautiful rendition ... and God bless
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Zh-yR0pbmU
She is a tireless worker for the sake of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Zone has my utmost admiration, respect and love as well Hebrews 10
Christ's Sacrifice Once for All
10 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? [SUP]3 [/SUP]But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Consequently, when Christ[SUP][a][/SUP] came into the world, he said,
“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), [SUP]9 [/SUP]then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.[SUP]12[/SUP]But when Christ[SUP][b][/SUP] had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,[SUP]13 [/SUP]waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”
[SUP]17 [/SUP]then he adds,
“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
[SUP]18[/SUP]Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Enjoy this beautiful rendition ... and God bless
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Zh-yR0pbmU
B
It does not glorify Christ to take away from the promises of God and the faith that we have been given concerning the nation and people of Israel and the church. It does not glorify Christ to take his word and make it into something it is not nor was intended to be nor to handle it with deceit for your own purposes. It does not glorify Christ to worship him and the Father with an understanding of truth that is based upon a false premise that the Holy Spirit has no part of. To condemn others who have been convinced by the Holy Spirit through the written word that Christ is coming for every believer prior to the time of great tribulation and Jacob's trouble to deliver them from the hour of temptation does not glorify Christ nor is it worship toward the Father who will be sending the Son for that purpose. To teach others that we are presently in the kingdom age and that their will be no 1,000 year reign with Christ after his return to the earth to sit upon the throne of David judging the nations of the earth does not glorify Christ and is not the Spirit of truth that we have been given to guide us and lead that we might walk in truth.
To take on a mocking spirit to ridicule and make fun of those who believe in the imminent return of Christ, who will catch away those who are in Christ prior to the rise of the antichrist, who is a specific individual as is the beast and the false prophet, who will be cast alive in the lake of fire, does not glorify Christ and has nothing to do with the will of the Father. If anyone wants to speak well of individuals who do these things and live in error concerning Christ and the church because you believe them to have some kind of deep understanding of truth through the constant barrage of scriptures that are used which make no sense because of the false premise and consequent wrong application, may God help you through mercy to have good understanding and to have discernment in the days that we live.
To take on a mocking spirit to ridicule and make fun of those who believe in the imminent return of Christ, who will catch away those who are in Christ prior to the rise of the antichrist, who is a specific individual as is the beast and the false prophet, who will be cast alive in the lake of fire, does not glorify Christ and has nothing to do with the will of the Father. If anyone wants to speak well of individuals who do these things and live in error concerning Christ and the church because you believe them to have some kind of deep understanding of truth through the constant barrage of scriptures that are used which make no sense because of the false premise and consequent wrong application, may God help you through mercy to have good understanding and to have discernment in the days that we live.