The Israel of God

SarahM777 · Dec 19, 2013

zone said:

Either that which would seem to be the case or one of two other possibilities,one would have to defy the laws of physics or we would need to technologically advanced to where one could miniaturize them. (I don't think were quite that far in technology yet)

SarahM777 · Dec 19, 2013

Although of course I did forget there is a fourth possibility,but that would require building a city in the valley about the size of Tokyo only much higher. (Toyko is about 1,000 square miles depending on how much you include) Although of course that does present it's own set of problems.

BradC · Dec 19, 2013

zone said:

Are you kidding, or are you just playing around with peacefulbeliever? Is this your explanation because it is the only way you can make sense of it? Then based upon the Hebrew word pictures, explain the meaning, time frame and reference that is made in Isaiah 65:20. Take all the time you need. Here it is.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

20 No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred and the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed.

If we only had the A part of verse 20 then you might have a good case, but we have the B part that really messes things up. If this applies to the new heaven and earth that you believe to be the eternal kingdom, why are these things even mentioned concerning age, infants, child (youth), old man, especially death, sinner and accursed? How can we have this during the eternal kingdom when any all the children of disobedience and those who have been workers of iniquity have been cast into the lake of fire and all who remain written in the book of life have put on immortality and have received glorified bodies and can eat of the tree of life? How do we deal with (Matt 22:30) that refers to those in the resurrection being as the angels of heaven not given to marriage? Is there going to be families, marriage, procreation without any conception of sin in the eternal kingdom or does the Greek language also have word pictures that we need to consider concerning the words of Christ? This is a dilemma for you.

BradC · Dec 19, 2013

How can anyone take the following passage and mess it up the way that Zone and others do is beyond common sense and comprehension. Just read Ez 37:21-28

21 Then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations to which they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land.
22 And I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one King shall be King over them all; and they shall be no longer two nations, neither be divided into two kingdoms any more.
23 They shall not defile themselves any more with their idols and their detestable things or with any of their transgressions, but I will save them out of all their dwelling places and from all their backslidings in which they have sinned, and I will cleanse them. So shall they be My people, and I will be their God.
24 And David My Servant shall be King over them, and they all shall have one Shepherd. They shall also walk in My ordinances and heed My statutes and do them.
25 They shall dwell in the land in which your fathers dwelt, that I gave to My servant Jacob, and they shall dwell there, they and their children and their children’s children, forever; and My Servant David shall be their Prince forever.
26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, and I will give blessings to them and multiply them and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore.
27 My tabernacle or dwelling place also shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
28 Then the nations shall know, understand, and realize that I the Lord do set apart and consecrate Israel for holy use, when My sanctuary shall be in their midst forevermore.

Hello, are we listening to what the Spirit of God is saying to Ezekiel?

zone · Dec 19, 2013

BradC said:

arg - why do you keep hanging yourself out there like this? embarrassing. oh well.

there's no dilemma for me

, Redster.

i didn't link peaceful here to material on the Hebrew language, since we already have enough trouble with people peering into the alphabet looking for secrets.

BradC said:

only for the wooden 'literalist' who doesn't have a clue that the prophets spoke exactly the same way.

see, all this is a complete waste of time, since you reject that Jesus fulfilled Daniel's 70th week completely; that the Old Covenant is over for EVERYONE; and that God has One Purpose and one people....none of this will ever add up for ya.

if you don't understand the prophet Daniel, pick up the pieces and go home.

BradC said:

what are you asking me?
you already said you don't teach any kingdom; you don't point anyone to a kingdom...then you try to point me to a kingdom.

i do not from whence ye are.

BradC said:

you tell me bro.
this must be your Millennial Kingdom...while you are in Heaven with the church.

BradC said:

PICTURES.

see, you don't even believe you're in the eternal kingdom NOW.
maybe you aren't.

the Hebrews 2000+ years ago who received the promise, entered in.
i don't know where you are.

zone · Dec 19, 2013

BradC said:

Hello? who is David My Servant?
has he come yet Red?

they all shall have one Shepherd.

when will that happen i wonder?

Ezekiel 34:2
"Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to you shepherds of Israel who only take care of yourselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock?

John 10
Jesus the Good Shepherd
10"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly. 11"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12"He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them

John 10:14
"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me < HE WAS IN ISRAEL AT THE TIME btw

oh look: Apostle to the Jews, Peter said:

1 Peter 2:25
For "you were like sheep going astray," but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

so.....He DIDN'T ACCOMPLISH THIS?

Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Isaiah 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Ezekiel 34:6
My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.

.....

was God looking for literal sheep, there Redster?
were they literally scattered over the whole earth (as in they were in Guatemala)?

could you please reconcile this exclusion of Israel; from the Church:

1) Paul had received by revelation a measure of grace according to God's purpose that he was to administer, dispense, oversee and manage in terms of its affairs, its doctrine and the building up of believers as a habitation of God through the Spirit.

2) This was to be done by faith and all under the stewardship of this grace that was given.

3) This was never offered to Israel nor was it a part of the commonwealth of Israel.

4) It was solely offered to the church as part of the manifold grace and wisdom of God according to God's purpose to reveal the mystery of Christ and the church.

5) It excluded Israel as a people and nation.....BradC

....with the rest of your stuff?

please settle the matter above first, where you assert -

"the building up of believers as a habitation of God through the Spirit....was never offered to Israel...It was solely offered to the church...It excluded Israel as a people and nation"

SarahM777 · Dec 19, 2013

BradC said:

You are the one pulled that out of context

Isaiah 65

17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

20 “Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the Lord.

Go back to verse 17 and He tells us what He is talking about,He is using poetic language to describe the New Heavens and New Earth and in it and never again will those things happen.

zone · Dec 19, 2013

SarahM777 said:

on all my holy mountain,” says the Lord.

well, where is His Holy Mountain?
Red thinks it is the temple Mount in Jerusalem.

Psalm 2
"I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain."

Hebrews 12
Our Kingdom Cannot Be Shaken
21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling." 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect

i wonder how many times someone has to read Heb. 12 before they accept it?
*shrug*

BradC · Dec 19, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Sarah, Zone and psychomom is Ez 37: 21-28 just poetic language as well? Here is the context that I pulled this passage out from and it is found in the first 20 verses of Ez 37. Are you ready for this, especially you psychomom. You don't have to like me don't don't disgrace the holy scriptures through the like of these two. Be a woman of God and have some conviction. Here's the context from which they were taken.

37 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and He brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones.
2 And He caused me to pass round about among them, and behold, there were very many [human bones] in the open valley or plain, and behold, they were very dry.
3 And He said to me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, You know!
4 Again He said to me, Prophesy to these bones and say to them, O you dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath and spirit to enter you, and you shall live;
6 And I will lay sinews upon you and bring up flesh upon you and cover you with skin, and I will put breath and spirit in you, and you [dry bones] shall live; and you shall know, understand, and realize that I am the Lord [the Sovereign Ruler, Who calls forth loyalty and obedient service].
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a [thundering] noise and behold, a shaking and trembling and a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
8 And I looked and behold, there were sinews upon [the bones] and flesh came upon them and skin covered them over, but there was no breath or spirit in them.
9 Then said He to me, Prophesy to the breath and spirit, son of man, and say to the breath and spirit, Thus says the Lord God: Come from the four winds, O breath and spirit, and breathe upon these slain that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath and spirit came into [the bones], and they lived and stood up upon their feet, an exceedingly great host.
11 Then He said to me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, Our bones are dried up and our hope is lost; we are completely cut off.
12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, O My people; and I will bring you [back home] to the land of Israel.
13 And you shall know that I am the Lord [your Sovereign Ruler], when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, O My people.
14 And I shall put My Spirit in you and you shall live, and I shall place you in your own land. Then you shall know, understand, and realize that I the Lord have spoken it and performed it, says the Lord.(has this already been fulfilled or is just a bunch of symbolic poetic language)
15 The word of the Lord came again to me, saying,
16 Son of man, take a stick and write on it, For Judah and the children of Israel his companions; then take another stick and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and all the house of Israel his companions;
17 And join them together into one stick that they may become one in your hand.
18 And when your people say to you, Will you not show us what you mean by these?
19 Say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph—which is in the hand of Ephraim—and the tribes of Israel his associates, and will join with it the stick of Judah and make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand.
20 When the sticks on which you write shall be in your hand before their eyes...

...Then we come to verses 21-28 which are crystal clear to the one who is open to hear what the Spirit is saying.

Psychomom, tell me what you think of the entire passage of Ez 37 and don't be afraid of Zone and all her cohorts and what they might say being women and all, along with some men.

morninglory · Dec 19, 2013

Agricola said:

since that isn't Jesus, we will see won't we...

zone · Dec 19, 2013

BradC said:

fulfilled.

BradC said:

fulfilled

BradC said:

Hebrews 12
1Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

A Kingdom That Cannot Be Shaken
18For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23and to the assemblya of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. 26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” 27This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. 28Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29for our God is a consuming fire.

zone · Dec 19, 2013

zone said:

The Israel of God
(Galatians 6:16)

by Michael Marlowe, Dec. 2004.

14 ἐμοὶ δὲ μὴ γένοιτο καυχᾶσθαι εἰ μὴ ἐν τῷ σταυρῷ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, δι᾽ οὗ ἐμοὶ κόσμος ἐσταύρωται κἀγὼ κόσμῳ. 15 οὔτε γὰρ περιτομή τί ἐστιν οὔτε ἀκροβυστία, ἀλλὰ καινὴ κτίσις. 16 καὶ ὅσοι τῷ κανόνι τούτῳ στοιχήσουσιν, εἰρήνη ἐπ᾽ αὐτοὺς καὶ ἔλεος, καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ.

14 But far be it from me to boast, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

...

The proper interpretation and translation of the last phrase in Galatians 6:16 has become a matter of controversy in the past century or so. Formerly it was not a matter of controversy.

The phrase has become controversial because the traditional interpretation conflicts with principles of interpretation associated with Dispensationalism.

Dispensationalists are interested in maintaining a sharp distinction between "Israel" and "the Church" across a whole range of theological matters pertaining to prophecy, ecclesiology, and soteriology.

They are not comfortable with the idea that here Paul is using the phrase "Israel of God" in a sense that includes Gentiles, because this undermines their contention that "the Church" is always carefully distinguished from "Israel" in Scripture.

This is a major tenet of dispensationalist hermeneutics. C.I. Scofield in his tract, Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth (New York, Loizeaux Brothers, 1888) wrote, "Comparing, then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, [a careful Bible student ] finds that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct, and future destiny--all is contrast."

Likewise Charles Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism Today (Chicago, 1965) explained that the "basic premise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity." (pp. 44-45).

The Israel of God (Galatians 6:16) < click

just a reminder of the subject, Red et al.

who is The Israel of God?

peacefulbeliever · Dec 19, 2013

SarahM777 said:

And that poetic language - and that pictorial language shows old men living till an old age "or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; infants not dying young but living till old age "Never again will there be in it; an infant who lives but a few days"

the pictorial poetic language shows "death" . . . . in the eternal Kingdom there will be NO death - Does this pictorial poetic language mean something else when stated "one who dies"?

peacefulbeliever · Dec 19, 2013

5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath and spirit to enter you, and you shall live;
6 And I will lay sinews upon you and bring up flesh upon you and cover you with skin, and I will put breath and spirit in you, and you [dry bones] shall live; and you shall know, understand, and realize that I am the Lord [the Sovereign Ruler, Who calls forth loyalty and obedient service].
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a [thundering] noise and behold, a shaking and trembling and a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
8 And I looked and behold, there were sinews upon [the bones] and flesh came upon them and skin covered them over, but there was no breath or spirit in them.
9 Then said He to me, Prophesy to the breath and spirit, son of man, and say to the breath and spirit, Thus says the Lord God: Come from the four winds, O breath and spirit, and breathe upon these slain that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath and spirit came into [the bones], and they lived and stood up upon their feet, an exceedingly great host.
11 Then He said to me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, Our bones are dried up and our hope is lost; we are completely cut off.
12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, O My people; and I will bring you [back home] to the land of Israel.
13 And you shall know that I am the Lord [your Sovereign Ruler], when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, O My people.
14 And I shall put My Spirit in you and you shall live, and I shall place you in your own land. Then you shall know, understand, and realize that I the Lord have spoken it and performed it, says the Lord.(has this already been fulfilled or is just a bunch of symbolic poetic language)

I guess I got the wrong "picture" because for some reason I thought this spoke of the resurrection - you know, opening the graves of the dead; the dead up out of their graves and the Spirit giving them life. . . .ummmm

zone · Dec 19, 2013

peacefulbeliever said:

peaceful,
the hebrews knew and recognized that the Patriarchs were favored by God (with long life etc).
they recognized these figures of speech as promises.
it's not that hard.
they were always referring to the times of the Patriarchs.

zone · Dec 19, 2013

peacefulbeliever said:

that was the prophecy about them - as they were in captivity in Babylon.
the prophet was shown what would happen for them when they returned to the land and the time of restoration and the Spirit came - Pentecost.
SOME of them mourned there and considered themselves as good as dead.

1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

SarahM777 · Dec 19, 2013

peacefulbeliever said:

Wrong read from verse 17 It says these things will be REMEMBERED NO MORE. And why would they NOT BE REMEMBERED? It's because they aren't dying.

Isdaniel · Dec 19, 2013

peacefulbeliever said:

And that poetic language - and that pictorial language shows old men living till an old age "or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; infants not dying young but living till old age "Never again will there be in it; an infant who lives but a few days"

the pictorial poetic language shows "death" . . . . in the eternal Kingdom there will be NO death - Does this pictorial poetic language mean something else when stated "one who dies"?

Isaiah 65:20 is in the 1000 years of Jesus rule not the eternal kingdom

SarahM777 · Dec 19, 2013

Isdaniel said:

Read it in CONTEXT of verses 17-19 God PLAINLY SAYS IT IS IN THE NEW HEAVENS AND EARTH.

Isaiah 65

17 17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

How much clearer does God have to be verse 20 is describing what it will like in the new heavens and earth.

Isdaniel · Dec 19, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Read it in CONTEXT of verses 17-19 God PLAINLY SAYS IT IS IN THE NEW HEAVENS AND EARTH.

Isaiah 65

17 17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

How much clearer does God have to be verse 20 is describing what it will like in the new heavens and earth.

A child shall die at 100 year hmmmm no death in Gods kingdom hmmmm you think the book runs in chronilogical order

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