Catholics are not idolators or pagans- if they are so then so also was Moses!

[Hizikyah]

the catholic church has named the pope "vicar of christ" granting him supposed dominion over heaven, earth, and the under rigion (whatever that is), basically removing the Messiah from His power, as if this could actually be done.... And they have placed "Mary" as intercessor, another Messiah only role...also the man priests forgive your sins....

do you see how they have tried/claimed to remove the Messiah from His power and roles, if this is not anti-Messiah IDK what is.

 

[Xtian7]

The thing about praying to anyone except Christ is that they don't hear you. When someone passes away, they are not concerned with the things of this world and they do not listen for prayers and then go before God for you. Why? Because only Christ is the mediator for us. No other person can do that. So, only Christ, God and Holy Spirit can hear and respond to our prayers. Mary doesn't hear you. She is kneeling before the throne of Christ worshipping Him, not harkening to the prayers of mortals below.

The same is true with the saints. Peter, Paul and all the rest are communing with Christ, not playing messenger. Angels can be moved to action by the word of Christ, not by the command of saints. Does this make sense?

There is one God. There is one Lord. There is one Savior. Praying/worshiping anyone else is idolatry.

I think God knows the answer better on this issue. If you have read the procedure as to how saints become saints- by miracles attributed to their intercession- and understood it without bias, your comment would not be logical.

 

[mystdancer50]

The Bible also tells us that we should never give anyone the title of "father", save God. Yet, priests are called "fathers".

Matthew 23:[SUP]8-10 [/SUP]“Don’t let people do that to you, put you on a pedestal like that. You all have a single Teacher, and you are all classmates. Don’t set people up as experts over your life, letting them tell you what to do. Save that authority for God; let him tell you what to do. No one else should carry the title of ‘Father’; you have only one Father, and he’s in heaven. And don’t let people maneuver you into taking charge of them. There is only one Life-Leader for you and them—Christ.

-The Message

 

[mystdancer50]

I think God knows the answer better on this issue. If you have read the procedure as to how saints become saints- by miracles attributed to their intercession- and understood it without bias, your comment would not be logical.

Show me in a non-Catholic Bible, such as KJV, where God tells you to make anyone a saint and how to do it. Show me, as well, where God says to pray to saints or Mary. It's not there.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I've just joined this site and have seen posts that reflect division and hatred as well as judging of Catholics. We are human and sinners just like everybody. We've made our mistakes, paid for them, still are paying and still may have to. Can any other church or denomination say they are perfect? Doesn't every church have it's own internal rules and regulations that may have not originated perfectly from the Bible but was done in faith? Just as the Church seemingly transgressed during the Reformation (over indulgences) and is impure in God's eyes therefor, aren't all other churches similarly impure in His Holy Eyes?

It upsets me every time I encounter the old argument about statues in Churches and the Second Commandment. I know to the depths of my soul that I worship God Himself and only use the images or statues as aids for my prayer and meditation. So I have a question- if I am a pagan because of the existence of such statues, by the same token I believe that Moses and the Israelites who were the first to receive the Ten Commandments were pagans too- they were worshipping the two kneeling angels atop the Ark of the Covenant! Prove to me that they weren't doing so! They knelt many times before it and venerated the Ark itself-so they must have!

Non Catholics that hound their Catholic CHRISTIAN (Yes we are Christian- read up on the 'Apostle's Creed'- that is what we believe and recite every Sunday in Mass) are sometimes no different to us that legalistic Muslims who say we are pagan (yet bow towards a black cube idol in Mecca which they worship).

Very upset and hurt about such divisions among believers of the King of Kings.

A sinner like all but a believer too!

Xtian7

You raise a good point. There was also the snake on the pole that Moses made, although it was later destroyed because the people had turned it into an idol.

 

[Xioneks]

As a baptist, i personally do not agreed with the baptist belief "one saved, forever saved, even while sinning constantly"
correct me if i am wrong

 

[Hizikyah]

I think God knows the answer better on this issue. If you have read the procedure as to how saints become saints- by miracles attributed to their intercession- and understood it without bias, your comment would not be logical.

Revelation 14:12, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, in conformity with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."

Where is this "procedure" in catchesisim?

because its not in Scripture, all men are in the grave and await resurrection, the queen of heaven catholics pray to is none other than Ishtar, better known in the west as Easter, the goddess of fertility.

Yeremyah:7:18, "How the children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, while the women knead dough to make cakes for the Queen of Heaven, and how they pour out drink offerings to the hinder gods so they may provoke Me to anger?"

 

[mystdancer50]

As a baptist, i personally do not agreed with the baptist belief "one saved, forever saved, even while sinning constantly"
correct me if i am wrong

I don't agree with this, either. If it were true, the Bible would not be necessary. There would be a brief summary of the Israelites and God, then Jesus coming, then a simple statement: Accept him and be saved forever.

There would be no list of sins and no calling to be holy, because it would just take that one instant of repentance to save you forever, as you go on fornicating and such. So, yeah, I agree with you on that. I was raised Baptist and I never believed that statement. I was too young to fully grasp it. Later, a real encounter with God challenged all of my beliefs in regards to 'do whatever...it'll be fine'. I am now a Pentecostal/Charismatic believer.

 

[buckets]

lots of hate towards the Catholic Church

I am not Catholic but do want to point out hating and slandering a church that calls Jesus Christ the Messiah may be in poor choice and mostly it's sad.
focus on the strength of your denomination would be my suggestion
I know Paul spoke about how to keep Christ's church pleasing to God
none of us are apostles
we may want to refrain judgement against the church that all Protestant faiths branched from
Let us not forget the good work in spreading love and Christ the Catholic Church does

Instead of focussing on difference maybe we could focus on love
Christ did say his one commandment was to love one another

If you think the Catholic Church is wrong try leading people to truth by sharing truth
bad mouthing others rarely leads anyone anywhere

 

[Xtian7]

Show me in a non-Catholic Bible, such as KJV, where God tells you to make anyone a saint and how to do it. Show me, as well, where God says to pray to saints or Mary. It's not there.

Show me where God says you are NOT 'to pray to saints...' in His Bible.

Why did the Israelites speak to Moses when they wanted to convey a message to God or for him to intercede on their behalf? Why didn't they speak to God directly themselves rather than go through him, a man of God? Answer me that!

 

[Hizikyah]

lots of hate towards the Catholic Church

I am not Catholic but do want to point out hating and slandering a church that calls Jesus Christ the Messiah may be in poor choice and mostly it's sad.
focus on the strength of your denomination would be my suggestion
I know Paul spoke about how to keep Christ's church pleasing to God
none of us are apostles
we may want to refrain judgement against the church that all Protestant faiths branched from
Let us not forget the good work in spreading love and Christ the Catholic Church does

Instead of focussing on difference maybe we could focus on love
Christ did say his one commandment was to love one another

If you think the Catholic Church is wrong try leading people to truth by sharing truth
bad mouthing others rarely leads anyone anywhere

Buckets I want to start by saying you are awesome!

but I disagree with you here, I just want to present this, do they really preach the true Messiah?

the catholic church has named the pope "vicar of christ" granting him supposed dominion over heaven, earth, and the under rigion (whatever that is), basically removing the Messiah from His power, as if this could actually be done.... And they have placed "Mary" as intercessor, another Messiah only role...also the man priests forgive your sins....

do you see how they have tried/claimed to remove the Messiah from His power and roles, if this is not anti-Messiah IDK what is.

Ephesians 5:11, "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them."

the catholic church is mystery babylon of Revelation, we must call satan satan

 

[mystdancer50]

I don't think there is a lot of hate. I am seeing people expressing why they don't believe in what the Catholic Church teaches. Maybe some are saying it a bit more briskly than they possibly should, but I don't see hate here. Of course, I'm not really reading all the posts, so there may be one or two in there that have expressed hate that I missed. It's happened before.

I, personally, don't agree with much of the practices of the Catholic Church. I don't doubt that they are Christians and I don't attempt to determine their salvation. I just express what I find disagreeable with the word of God in their practices. It's the institution I'm speaking out against, not the people.

 

[mystdancer50]

Show me where God says you are NOT 'to pray to saints...' in His Bible.

Why did the Israelites speak to Moses when they wanted to convey a message to God or for him to intercede on their behalf? Why didn't they speak to God directly themselves rather than go through him, a man of God? Answer me that!

So, by omission you justify praying to others. Hmm...

Jesus said that no man can come to the father except through Him (Christ). No man can come to God unless they speak with Christ. It doesn't say, "Or Mary, Peter or Paul." Nope. Just Christ.

In regards to the Israelites not letting God speak to them, that was a spirit of fear. If you want to justify praying to others, then by all means, there's your justification: fear. The Israelites were afraid of God, so they didn't want to hear from God, rather from man, and they made Moses be their go-between.

This brings another point: was Moses dead when he spoke to God for the Israelites? Nope. He was alive and well and was interceding here on earth. Praying to saints long dead is not the same by any means. It doesn't even compare. People can intercede for each other here on earth, while living, and go before the throne of God while praying to Jesus on behalf of another. That is not the same thing as praying to a spirit of a person who has passed away.

 

[Hizikyah]

I want to say MD50 reminded me I do need to say this

I dont not dislike the cathlolic lay people, I have a problem with the system and it leaders.

there is something called esoteric and exoteric.

the leaders are esoteric and have an inner doctrine, they know exactly what they are doing.

the lay are the exoteric and are getting fed the outer doctrine, not seeing or knowing what the truth behind it is.

 

[Crazylove]

This is such an old conflict and I know a lot of people won't lik this, but someone has to say it.

The Reformation was "the Bible and the Bible only!" " By faith instead of works!" Oh really, then how do u explain keeping Sunday as Sabbath, saved as long as u go to church, saved because u said the sinner's prayer, or because u was baptized one time in ur life or solely obeying th leader of ur denomination. Summation of Protestant churches.... looking at it this way, u can plainly c catholic roots.

"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye!" (Mt 7:5)

I'm not Catholic and don't agree with any denomination whether Protestant or Catholic. Both do not believe "the Bible only," both hav a problem with thinking works save and hav some type of idolism. Not that anyone is perfect, i'm not saying that, I'm saying we hav a lot of issues as Protestants and should let God handle us before we concern ourselves with all th Catholic church issues.

 

[Hizikyah]

This is such an old conflict and I know a lot of people won't lik this, but someone has to say it.

The Reformation was "the Bible and the Bible only!" " By faith instead of works!" Oh really, then how do u explain keeping Sunday as Sabbath, saved as long as u go to church, saved because u said the sinner's prayer, or because u was baptized one time in ur life or solely obeying th leader of ur denomination. Summation of Protestant churches.... looking at it this way, u can plainly c catholic roots.

"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye!" (Mt 7:5)

I'm not Catholic and don't agree with any denomination whether Protestant or Catholic. Both do not believe "the Bible only," both hav a problem with thinking works save and hav some type of idolism. Not that anyone is perfect, i'm not saying that, I'm saying we hav a lot of issues as Protestants and should let God handle us before we concern ourselves with all th Catholic church issues.

yes the reformation did have its errors, and the counter reformation has even done away with the few corrections that were made in the reformation.

I agree half truth is not truth, Scripture ONLY!

That is why I feel a need to speak against lies, I will not sacrifice truth for anything.

 

[Isdaniel]

Tell me why did they make a graven image of angels? And many a time the Israelites bowed down before the Ark itself (even if they were instructed to make it by God). What were they doing in those moments? Obviously it was more than an aid in prayer, in fact a holy object, but clearly not God Himself, so why did they 'idolise' the Ark of the
Covenant by their actions?

hmm why did not God say to make a statue of Himself ?

Hmm I womder if Moses worship the burning bush ?

 

[Isdaniel]

I think God knows the answer better on this issue. If you have read the procedure as to how saints become saints- by miracles attributed to their intercession- and understood it without bias, your comment would not be logical.

How does one become a saint hmm simple accept Jesus hmmmmm

No meetings rituals etc

 

[Isdaniel]

Notuptome,

Yes Catholics 'pray' to Mary and the saints. But any knowledgable Catholic will tell you worship is only due to God. I find your judging of both Jews and Catholics not in line with the Spirit of God- but that's my opinion. His Opinion is the one that matters!

praying to something is worship

 

[Isdaniel]

Tell me why did they make a graven image of angels? And many a time the Israelites bowed down before the Ark itself (even if they were instructed to make it by God). What were they doing in those moments? Obviously it was more than an aid in prayer, in fact a holy object, but clearly not God Himself, so why did they 'idolise' the Ark of the
Covenant by their actions?

Tell me why did people bow down to Kings ?



Why was not a statue made like God ?


Did God sit on the mercy seat ?