There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity
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Literally what it says. GOD, the eternal ONE, created a body in the womb of Mary, so that part of HIMSELF could enter it, and be the HOLY blood Sacrifice for our sins. It is the Ultimate act of LOVE.
John 15:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] No one has greater love than this, that someone would lay down his life for his friends.
If GOD did not taste death for us, then HIS love is less than the greatest. GOD is Eternal, the ONLY way HE could die for us, is to take a human form first. Since GOD is also Omnipresent, only Part of HIM could enter that body, without ceasing to be Omnipresent, and to cease to be Omnipresent would be for HIM to cease being GOD. THAT part of GOD is the part that has ALWAYS functioned as a Son (not to be confused with being an offspring). The Father willed a plan of Salvation be carried out, the Son carried out the will of the Father, and the Holy Spirit enables us to BELIEVE in HIM who carried out the will of Father and enables us to do the will of the Father. THE THREE ARE ONE GOD, not three Gods. ONE GOD made up of three personages, ALWAYS HAVE BEEN ONE, and ALWAYS WILL BE ONE GOD. Sure HE said my GOD, because HE WAS ALSO TRULY HUMAN SO THAT HE COULD DIE. The difference between you and me, and JESUS CHRIST is our spirits were Created by HIM, while HIS SPIRIT IS GOD.
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Isaiah 43:10 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
Psalm 65:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You answer us in righteousness, with awe-inspiring works, God of our salvation, the hope of all the ends of the earth and of the distant seas.
Hebrews 1:8 (NRSV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
John 10:30 (ASV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] I and the Father are one.
Now tell me about your spiritual fruit of JOY. Do you have any?
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
Psalm 65:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You answer us in righteousness, with awe-inspiring works, God of our salvation, the hope of all the ends of the earth and of the distant seas.
Hebrews 1:8 (NRSV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
John 10:30 (ASV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] I and the Father are one.
Now tell me about your spiritual fruit of JOY. Do you have any?
@VCO
Hey, thanks again for your insight. I've been thinking about this for a while; why would God allow for 7 different types of churches? Wouldn't one central church suffice?
Hey, thanks again for your insight. I've been thinking about this for a while; why would God allow for 7 different types of churches? Wouldn't one central church suffice?
NO, because people are different. We do not all fit into one cookie cutter mold. For example I thoroughly enjoy listening to a Pastor who is gifted to exposit the WORD. That is when they teach the Word instead of just preach, explaining what it means by what it says and how it applies to our lives. But a Hellfire and Brimstone preacher would drive me out the door before his sermon was over. YET I know there are people who do not even feel like they have been to church unless they have heard some good old fashioned Hellfire and Brimstone preaching. I found the ritualistic order of service of the old German style of Lutheran Church that is was raised in, to be a bit boring and definitely left me starved for Bible Teaching. YET I know there are lots of people who need that to feel the reverence for GOD that HE deserves. What can effectively work to reach one for the LORD, may not work with the next at all, but something else will.
1 Corinthians 9:19-22 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Although I am a free man and not anyone’s ⌊slave⌋, I have made myself a slave to everyone, in order to win more people.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win Jews; to those under the law, like one under the law—though I myself am not under the law—to win those under the law.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] To those who are without ⌊that⌋ law, like one without the law—not being without God’s law but within Christ’s law—to win those without the law.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] To the weak I became weak, in order to win the weak. I have become all things to all people, so that I may by every possible means save some.
Paul understood that because people were different, different things, different positions on gray area issues, and different teaching styles were required to required to reach each different group. Paul was a traveling Missionary, therefore he could be flexible and adapt his teaching style to fit each different group. A Church needs to consistent in their teaching or you will drive many out the door every time you Change, and no one in your congregation will be maturing spiritually.
I have personally seen this happen in a Church that I attended. A Church was just starting, meeting in a school gym. In that town there were two different Churches that split over minor issues. So the two groups that split off from the other two Churches gravitated towards this third Church that was just getting started. That happened even though one group believed in tongues for today and the other group believed it was only an Apostolic gift. The Pastor knew that minor issue was a hot bed of disagreement; so he announced that it would be a non-issue and not be taught either way. So the two groups bonded as one, and the Church flourished for two years, and even built our own Church out of 100% donations, with NO money borrowed.
THEN one Sunday, without any warning the Pastor changed his mind and started teaching that tongues were for today, and caused yet another Church split. We were flourishing, and spiritually growing, with tongues being left as a Non-Issue; and that willful Change of position caused half of us to leave. That Church a couple years later closed it's doors due to lack of funds.
You will find that the Denominational barriers are almost ALWAYS over the minor issues. That is true throughout Mainline Christianity, because we all pretty much have the same CORE beliefs: The Doctrine of the Holy Trinity, The Deity of Jesus Christ, The in-errancy of the Holy Scriptures, The plan of Salvation, Christ's physical Resurrection, The fact that Christ will come again, The reality of Hell, The promise of Heaven for the Believers, etc. Sadly it is always the little things that we bicker about, for example: Elder Rule vs. Congregational Rule, has split many Churches, even though I can support both with Scripture. So diversity without compromising the CORE BELIEFS is necessary, because GOD made us all different.
Although are are correct that by the scriptures context (and by ones use of reason and logic) it is clear that scripture was stating that Solomon gave of his own bounty it doesn't overall the fact that the same principal can be applied to Gen 19 as I will show you.
Another account in which a messenger is called by his representative name is in the account of the army officer of Capernaum, in these two parallel verses we can clearly see the principle being applied.
(Matthew 8:5) "...When he [Jesus] entered into Ca·per′na·um, an army officer came to him, entreating him... In reply the army officer said: “Sir, I am not a fit man for you to enter under my roof, but just say the word and my manservant will be healed...Then Jesus said to the army officer: “Go. Just as it has been your faith..."
(Luke 7:2-4) "...Now a certain army officer’s slave, who was dear to him, was ailing and was about to pass away. 3 When he heard about Jesus, he sent forth older men of the Jews to him [Jesus] to ask him to come and bring his slave safely through. 4 Then those that came up to Jesus began to entreat him earnestly, saying: “He is worthy of your conferring this upon him..."
As we can see, the army officers representatives were labelled as the Army officer himself in Matthews account. Likewise In Genesis 19:24 the Angels, one in particular, was a representative of the Father. So when this Angel by Gods decree called fire down from Heaven he would of done so with the power of the almighty, so in effect Jehovah by his representative rained down fire from himself/Jehovah.
It is consistent with Hebrew idiom to speak of a person’s doing something in reference to himself, more than one account shows this, more examples read the following, Exodus 24:1, Hosea 1:6-7, Zechariah 10:12.
It goes against all logic and reason to say that the messenger of God was God himself, the statement in itself is contradictory, also nowhere in scripture is Jesus called "the messenger of God" but simply "Gods word". Furthermore the single Angel -who was in the appearance of a man just like the two other angels- representing Jehovah was not the one who rained down fire from heaven, it was in fact the two other Angels, rubbishing the claim the one of the three men was Jesus/Jehovah who rained down fire from Jehovah/Father in Heaven.
(Genesis 19:12-14) "...Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom....they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he prepared a feast for them.... Then the two men said to Lot, "Whom else have you here?".... for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before Yahweh that Yahweh has sent us to destroy it." Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, and said, "Up, get out of this place, for Yahweh will destroy the city.".... Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven..."
From the reading above it is again clear to see the "two Men" by the power of Jehovah were the ones who were bringing the city to ruin and not the "Man" of spoke directly for Jehovah, so since they were doing the work of God as his representative It again can be said "Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven".
Could you also provide me this scripture which shows that the title messenger can be applied to Jehovah the almighty, thanks and regards.
Another account in which a messenger is called by his representative name is in the account of the army officer of Capernaum, in these two parallel verses we can clearly see the principle being applied.
(Matthew 8:5) "...When he [Jesus] entered into Ca·per′na·um, an army officer came to him, entreating him... In reply the army officer said: “Sir, I am not a fit man for you to enter under my roof, but just say the word and my manservant will be healed...Then Jesus said to the army officer: “Go. Just as it has been your faith..."
(Luke 7:2-4) "...Now a certain army officer’s slave, who was dear to him, was ailing and was about to pass away. 3 When he heard about Jesus, he sent forth older men of the Jews to him [Jesus] to ask him to come and bring his slave safely through. 4 Then those that came up to Jesus began to entreat him earnestly, saying: “He is worthy of your conferring this upon him..."
As we can see, the army officers representatives were labelled as the Army officer himself in Matthews account. Likewise In Genesis 19:24 the Angels, one in particular, was a representative of the Father. So when this Angel by Gods decree called fire down from Heaven he would of done so with the power of the almighty, so in effect Jehovah by his representative rained down fire from himself/Jehovah.
It is consistent with Hebrew idiom to speak of a person’s doing something in reference to himself, more than one account shows this, more examples read the following, Exodus 24:1, Hosea 1:6-7, Zechariah 10:12.
It goes against all logic and reason to say that the messenger of God was God himself, the statement in itself is contradictory, also nowhere in scripture is Jesus called "the messenger of God" but simply "Gods word". Furthermore the single Angel -who was in the appearance of a man just like the two other angels- representing Jehovah was not the one who rained down fire from heaven, it was in fact the two other Angels, rubbishing the claim the one of the three men was Jesus/Jehovah who rained down fire from Jehovah/Father in Heaven.
(Genesis 19:12-14) "...Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom....they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he prepared a feast for them.... Then the two men said to Lot, "Whom else have you here?".... for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before Yahweh that Yahweh has sent us to destroy it." Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, and said, "Up, get out of this place, for Yahweh will destroy the city.".... Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven..."
From the reading above it is again clear to see the "two Men" by the power of Jehovah were the ones who were bringing the city to ruin and not the "Man" of spoke directly for Jehovah, so since they were doing the work of God as his representative It again can be said "Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven".
Could you also provide me this scripture which shows that the title messenger can be applied to Jehovah the almighty, thanks and regards.
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A
After reading posts and skimming others in this thread, it seems to me that the biggest issue we need to agree on is this:
Is Jehovah/Yahweh/YHWH/LORD the one and only God?
In other words, does Jehovah/Yahweh/YHWH/LORD = the one true God?
Or are there demigods that are called God, but are not Jehovah/Yahweh/YHWH/LORD?
There seems to be some confusion in this thread on this topic, so let's get this answered before we move on.
For the record, I will answer my own post, and I invite others to answer as well.
I believe that Jehovah/Yahweh/YHWH/LORD is the only God.
What do you think?
Is Jehovah/Yahweh/YHWH/LORD the one and only God?
In other words, does Jehovah/Yahweh/YHWH/LORD = the one true God?
Or are there demigods that are called God, but are not Jehovah/Yahweh/YHWH/LORD?
There seems to be some confusion in this thread on this topic, so let's get this answered before we move on.
For the record, I will answer my own post, and I invite others to answer as well.
I believe that Jehovah/Yahweh/YHWH/LORD is the only God.
What do you think?
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C
Religious intolerance was common throughout the Middle Ages, and it found increased fervor in the 16th century. Religion fanned the flames of ghastly, bloody wars in such lands as England, France, Germany, and the Netherlands. Between 1520 and about 1565, some 3,000 people were executed as heretics in Western Christendom. Almost any questioning of values and ideas—particularly in the area of religion—was likely to meet with an intolerant reaction.
Yet, some in the 16th century chose to go against tradition and examine the Scriptures in an attempt to clarify such mysteries. Their motto was sola Scriptura (Scripture alone). Those who rejected the Trinity doctrine—some of whom were later called Unitarians, as opposed to Trinitarians—often became the object of intense persecution by Catholics and Protestants alike. They printed their widely read works under pseudonyms and hid themselves away to avoid persecution. Anti-Trinitarians were also at the forefront in the fight for tolerance. Some, such as the Spanish theologian Michael Servetus, even paid for their convictions with their lives
Yet, some in the 16th century chose to go against tradition and examine the Scriptures in an attempt to clarify such mysteries. Their motto was sola Scriptura (Scripture alone). Those who rejected the Trinity doctrine—some of whom were later called Unitarians, as opposed to Trinitarians—often became the object of intense persecution by Catholics and Protestants alike. They printed their widely read works under pseudonyms and hid themselves away to avoid persecution. Anti-Trinitarians were also at the forefront in the fight for tolerance. Some, such as the Spanish theologian Michael Servetus, even paid for their convictions with their lives
C
Religious intolerance was common throughout the Middle Ages, and it found increased fervor in the 16th century. Religion fanned the flames of ghastly, bloody wars in such lands as England, France, Germany, and the Netherlands. Between 1520 and about 1565, some 3,000 people were executed as heretics in Western Christendom. Almost any questioning of values and ideas—particularly in the area of religion—was likely to meet with an intolerant reaction.
Yet, some in the 16th century chose to go against tradition and examine the Scriptures in an attempt to clarify such mysteries. Their motto was sola Scriptura (Scripture alone). Those who rejected the Trinity doctrine—some of whom were later called Unitarians, as opposed to Trinitarians—often became the object of intense persecution by Catholics and Protestants alike. They printed their widely read works under pseudonyms and hid themselves away to avoid persecution. Anti-Trinitarians were also at the forefront in the fight for tolerance. Some, such as the Spanish theologian Michael Servetus, even paid for their convictions with their lives
Yet, some in the 16th century chose to go against tradition and examine the Scriptures in an attempt to clarify such mysteries. Their motto was sola Scriptura (Scripture alone). Those who rejected the Trinity doctrine—some of whom were later called Unitarians, as opposed to Trinitarians—often became the object of intense persecution by Catholics and Protestants alike. They printed their widely read works under pseudonyms and hid themselves away to avoid persecution. Anti-Trinitarians were also at the forefront in the fight for tolerance. Some, such as the Spanish theologian Michael Servetus, even paid for their convictions with their lives
But it started FAR EARLIER than 1500s. In fact, I question if you can support Religious Tolerance, with Scripture. I find commands to NOT be tolerant of False gospels, False Christs, and False Doctrines:
Those commands started with the Inspired WORD of GOD that Paul penned:
Galatians 1:6-9 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] which is not another gospel only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] As we have said before, so say I now again, if any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema.
1 Timothy 6:3-5 (ASV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] If any man teacheth a different doctrine, and consenteth not to sound words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
[SUP]4 [/SUP] he is puffed up, knowing nothing, but doting about questionings and disputes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] wranglings of men corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, supposing that godliness is a way of gain.
1 Timothy 6:11-12 (ASV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Fight the good fight of the faith, lay hold on the life eternal, where unto thou wast called, and didst confess the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.
2 Timothy 3:1-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But know this: Difficult times will come in the last days.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, without love for what is good,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] holding to the form of godliness but denying its power. Avoid these people!
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For among them are those who worm their way into households and capture idle women burdened down with sins, led along by a variety of passions,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] always learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 1:18-20 (NKJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
And in the Inspired WORD of GOD that John penned:
2 John 1:10-11 (ASV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If any one cometh unto you, and bringeth not this teaching, receive him not into your house, and give him no greeting:
[SUP]11 [/SUP] for he that giveth him greeting partaketh in his evil works.
And even the Inspired WORDS penned by Peter showed no Tolerance for False Teachers:
2 Peter 2:1-2 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Many will follow their unrestrained ways, and the way of truth will be blasphemed because of them.
No, we are not to let debates elevate to the level of Arguments, and agreeing to disagree is sometimes the only way to avoid those arguments. But neither are we to be Tolerant of False Gospels, False Christs, and False Doctrines. It is the WORLD that is preaching Religious Tolerance, not the Word of GOD.
And even the Inspired Words penned by Jude, did not call for Tolerance:
Jude 1:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Those commands started with the Inspired WORD of GOD that Paul penned:
Galatians 1:6-9 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] which is not another gospel only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] As we have said before, so say I now again, if any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema.
1 Timothy 6:3-5 (ASV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] If any man teacheth a different doctrine, and consenteth not to sound words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
[SUP]4 [/SUP] he is puffed up, knowing nothing, but doting about questionings and disputes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] wranglings of men corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, supposing that godliness is a way of gain.
1 Timothy 6:11-12 (ASV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Fight the good fight of the faith, lay hold on the life eternal, where unto thou wast called, and didst confess the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.
2 Timothy 3:1-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But know this: Difficult times will come in the last days.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, without love for what is good,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] holding to the form of godliness but denying its power. Avoid these people!
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For among them are those who worm their way into households and capture idle women burdened down with sins, led along by a variety of passions,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] always learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 1:18-20 (NKJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
And in the Inspired WORD of GOD that John penned:
2 John 1:10-11 (ASV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If any one cometh unto you, and bringeth not this teaching, receive him not into your house, and give him no greeting:
[SUP]11 [/SUP] for he that giveth him greeting partaketh in his evil works.
And even the Inspired WORDS penned by Peter showed no Tolerance for False Teachers:
2 Peter 2:1-2 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Many will follow their unrestrained ways, and the way of truth will be blasphemed because of them.
No, we are not to let debates elevate to the level of Arguments, and agreeing to disagree is sometimes the only way to avoid those arguments. But neither are we to be Tolerant of False Gospels, False Christs, and False Doctrines. It is the WORLD that is preaching Religious Tolerance, not the Word of GOD.
And even the Inspired Words penned by Jude, did not call for Tolerance:
Jude 1:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
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Re: Study up JW...
Bowman, it would help if you posted the Translation as well as the Book, Chapter, and Verses. I have 22 available Translations (not counting non-English Translations) on my WORDsearch 10 software program. OF ALL OF THEM only TWO translated that Messenger of GOD. The REST all translated it Angel of GOD. The only two that translated it the way you posted it were:
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
and the modern day street language English Translation
God's Word Translation (GWT or GW if it is an older version of it)
So I found twenty Translations on my software alone that Translated it:
Galatians 4:13-14 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] you know that previously I preached the gospel to you because of a physical illness.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] You did not despise or reject me though my physical condition was a trial for you. On the contrary, you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus ⌊Himself⌋.
The software I use has a FREE version that includes 7 Bibles you download and include the KJV, YLT, HCSB, and GWT: https://www.wordsearchbible.com/basic
Bowman, it would help if you posted the Translation as well as the Book, Chapter, and Verses. I have 22 available Translations (not counting non-English Translations) on my WORDsearch 10 software program. OF ALL OF THEM only TWO translated that Messenger of GOD. The REST all translated it Angel of GOD. The only two that translated it the way you posted it were:
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
and the modern day street language English Translation
God's Word Translation (GWT or GW if it is an older version of it)
So I found twenty Translations on my software alone that Translated it:
Galatians 4:13-14 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] you know that previously I preached the gospel to you because of a physical illness.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] You did not despise or reject me though my physical condition was a trial for you. On the contrary, you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus ⌊Himself⌋.
The software I use has a FREE version that includes 7 Bibles you download and include the KJV, YLT, HCSB, and GWT: https://www.wordsearchbible.com/basic
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T
One thing I'd like to inform you is that John sounds VERY trinitarian but whenever he does, he makes it clear that he is not. So In John 1 your right it sounds just like a trinity, up until verse 18. He states that no man has seen God. It doesnt say "god the father" it simply says God. If the trinity is true doctrine then no man should have seen Jesus because he is God. But at the same time not right? Also the entirety of John 17 disproves the trinity. This is Jesus's prayer for his disciples. John 17: 21 states....
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
So we are to be one in Jesus in the same manner that he is one with god. So how is he one with god? NOT by being or the same entity but by the same mind. When Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen my father he did not mean by body or by spirit (in the literal sense) but by mind or will. Jesus perfectly manifested god. Manifestation does not mean they are the same in entity but different beings with exact same traits. Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God so he can not be God.
Some other things that clearly show the difference of Jesus and God are that Jesus could sin, he didn't but he could. God cannot because whatever God does is righteous no matter what. God is invisible. Jesus is not. God lies in unapproachable light. Jesus did not for at least 30 years and will be coming back. God cannot die. Jesus did. He was resurrected after 3 days but for those 3 days he was in fact dead. God cannot be tempted. Jesus was. The list goes on. Jesus does not=God but is the perfect servant of God. What relationship would we have with Jesus if he literally could not sin (for if he was God he couldn't). We woulnd't be able to relate to him. He wouldn't be able to relate to us! He sent his son so there could be a connection between us and him. Another thing is Jesus prayed to God. If Jesus is God that concept makes no sense. Jesus prayed to himself? Also only once Jesus was baptized did he have the power to perform miracles. If he was God he would have had them at birth. ALSO Jesus had to learn the scriptures as a child. If he was God he would know everything. When Jesus is praying to God asking God to take the cup from him he is asking God is there any other way for him to save the world other than dieing the horrible death he did. If he was God he would have known there was no way. Jesus struggled with sin just as we do, but if Jesus was God he wouldn't have.
Now an interesting idea is the history of the trinity. How did it actually come to be. You can google this if you really want to make sure I am right or not but I have gotten my information from a book called "Is Jesus God" and it was written by I believe an atheist but I could be wrong on that one. I also do not know his name and I returned the book to the owner already which is why I implore to you find out if I am telling the truth or not on your own.
The general history of the trinity is that around 300 A.D. there were constant political conflicts and in a sense mini wars based on theology. The question at hand was is Jesus God. After MANY people were killed there was a convention. In this convention the trinity was voted on for if it would be a doctrine that would be deemed true. Slightly over 50% voted in favor. Those who voted no were then killed off. That makes sense because heretics were hunted down up until the 1500s. So of course the general population will believe the trinity but close study shoes the trinity is a false doctrine.
God bless to all!
Re: Study up JW...
Thanks brother...
We know that αγγελον is defined by its context...as such, the best rendering of this term is as 'Messenger', since we know that The Son is not an angel.
The Son has numerous epithets applied to Him throughout the Holy Bible, with 'Messenger' being one of many.
In the OT, The Son was often referred to as 'Malek Yahweh'...i.e. The Messenger of God.
Even the authors of the Koran picked up on this and also refer to Jesus as 'The Messenger of God' amongst numerous other epithets...
Thanks brother...
We know that αγγελον is defined by its context...as such, the best rendering of this term is as 'Messenger', since we know that The Son is not an angel.
The Son has numerous epithets applied to Him throughout the Holy Bible, with 'Messenger' being one of many.
In the OT, The Son was often referred to as 'Malek Yahweh'...i.e. The Messenger of God.
Even the authors of the Koran picked up on this and also refer to Jesus as 'The Messenger of God' amongst numerous other epithets...
Re: Study up JW...
Oh, NOW I understand how you misunderstood that verse.
What Paul was saying is "You treated me and my message of the good news, as if a messenger angel from GOD brought it to you, or Christ Himself." HE DID NOT SAY, "You treated me as if my message of the good news as if it came from Jesus Christ or Christ Himself."
Galatians 4:13-14 (YLT)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] and ye have known that through infirmity of the flesh I did proclaim good news to you at the first,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] and my trial that is in my flesh ye did not despise nor reject, but as a messenger of God ye did receive me--as Christ Jesus;
See how that makes no sense.
Galatians 4:13-14 (GW)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] You know that the first time I brought you the Good News I was ill.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Even though my illness was difficult for you, you didn't despise or reject me. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were God's messenger or Christ Jesus himself.
You are trying to read into the absence of the "or" in the YLT that just is not there.
WHO appeared to Cornelius and his Family? A messenger Angel or Christ?
Acts 10:22 (YLT)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] And they said, `Cornelius, a centurion, a man righteous and fearing God, well testified to, also, by all the nation of the Jews, was divinely warned by a holy messenger to send for thee, to his house, and to hear sayings from thee.'
An ANGEL, and how do we know this? When Jesus Christ appeared to Paul on the Damascus road, Christ had taken back his Shekinah Glory
and it BLINDED Paul, and the shear power of it knocked him clean of his horse. And this following verse too is obviously an angel.
Luke 2:9-11 (YLT)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and lo, a messenger of the Lord stood over them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they feared a great fear.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And the messenger said to them, `Fear not, for lo, I bring you good news of great joy, that shall be to all the people--
[SUP]11 [/SUP] because there was born to you to-day a Saviour--who is Christ the Lord--in the city of David,
Oh, NOW I understand how you misunderstood that verse.
What Paul was saying is "You treated me and my message of the good news, as if a messenger angel from GOD brought it to you, or Christ Himself." HE DID NOT SAY, "You treated me as if my message of the good news as if it came from Jesus Christ or Christ Himself."
Galatians 4:13-14 (YLT)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] and ye have known that through infirmity of the flesh I did proclaim good news to you at the first,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] and my trial that is in my flesh ye did not despise nor reject, but as a messenger of God ye did receive me--as Christ Jesus;
See how that makes no sense.
Galatians 4:13-14 (GW)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] You know that the first time I brought you the Good News I was ill.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Even though my illness was difficult for you, you didn't despise or reject me. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were God's messenger or Christ Jesus himself.
You are trying to read into the absence of the "or" in the YLT that just is not there.
WHO appeared to Cornelius and his Family? A messenger Angel or Christ?
Acts 10:22 (YLT)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] And they said, `Cornelius, a centurion, a man righteous and fearing God, well testified to, also, by all the nation of the Jews, was divinely warned by a holy messenger to send for thee, to his house, and to hear sayings from thee.'
An ANGEL, and how do we know this? When Jesus Christ appeared to Paul on the Damascus road, Christ had taken back his Shekinah Glory
and it BLINDED Paul, and the shear power of it knocked him clean of his horse. And this following verse too is obviously an angel.
Luke 2:9-11 (YLT)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and lo, a messenger of the Lord stood over them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they feared a great fear.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And the messenger said to them, `Fear not, for lo, I bring you good news of great joy, that shall be to all the people--
[SUP]11 [/SUP] because there was born to you to-day a Saviour--who is Christ the Lord--in the city of David,
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I am pretty sure it isn't you, because you are a product of your teachers; so WHO EXACTLY IS THE ONE MAKING UP THESE LIES ABOUT WHAT WE TEACH AND BELIEVE?
We do not believe the flesh part of JESUS is the part of JESUS that is GOD. Jesus is in every way also HUMAN just like us, that is HE, like us, has a BODY, a SOUL, and a SPIRIT.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely. And may your spirit, soul, and body be kept sound and blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
John 4:24 (NIV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
Colossians 2:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
John 14:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
NOW GUESS WHICH PART OF JESUS WE BELIEVE PURELY IS GOD?
Now the Difference between our human spirit and HIS SPIRIT, is our spirit was CREATED by HIM.
AND THE SPIRIT OF JESUS IS GOD HIMSELF. HE created that body in Mary's womb so that part of HIMSELF, could enter it, and become a man, thereby being able experience DEATH in the fleshly part of HIMSELF, thereby becoming the ULTIMATE FORM OF LOVE, as HE HIMSELF DEFINED IT.
John 15:13 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
GOD HAD TO BECOME A MAN AND DIE A SUBSTITUTIONARY DEATH FOR US, OR HIS LOVE IS LESS THAN WHAT A MAN CAN DO.
THEREFORE JESUS IS BOTH TRULY MAN AND TRULY GOD.
See how different your view of what you THINK WE BELIEVE is, than what is the REALITY of what we actually do Believe?
You have studied made up lies, designed to discredit our beliefs; AND you know who the father of all lies is.
We do not believe the flesh part of JESUS is the part of JESUS that is GOD. Jesus is in every way also HUMAN just like us, that is HE, like us, has a BODY, a SOUL, and a SPIRIT.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely. And may your spirit, soul, and body be kept sound and blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
John 4:24 (NIV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
Colossians 2:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
John 14:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
NOW GUESS WHICH PART OF JESUS WE BELIEVE PURELY IS GOD?
Now the Difference between our human spirit and HIS SPIRIT, is our spirit was CREATED by HIM.
AND THE SPIRIT OF JESUS IS GOD HIMSELF. HE created that body in Mary's womb so that part of HIMSELF, could enter it, and become a man, thereby being able experience DEATH in the fleshly part of HIMSELF, thereby becoming the ULTIMATE FORM OF LOVE, as HE HIMSELF DEFINED IT.
John 15:13 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
GOD HAD TO BECOME A MAN AND DIE A SUBSTITUTIONARY DEATH FOR US, OR HIS LOVE IS LESS THAN WHAT A MAN CAN DO.
THEREFORE JESUS IS BOTH TRULY MAN AND TRULY GOD.
See how different your view of what you THINK WE BELIEVE is, than what is the REALITY of what we actually do Believe?
You have studied made up lies, designed to discredit our beliefs; AND you know who the father of all lies is.