There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

gotime · Dec 21, 2013

The Old testament shows that it was Jehovah who would be pierced on the cross.

Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

now let us look at the scripture that John is referring to but not quoting.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

who is speaking here?

Answer: Jehovah

Thus Jehovah said that it would be himself who is pierced and John bares record that it is Jesus.

gotime · Dec 21, 2013

By the way the whole word revealed before the incarnation still stands. The revelation that Jesus is Jehovah came after Jesus came to earth. no one knew before.

Gjolll · Dec 21, 2013

gotime said:

No. You are adopting an unspiritual view of the issue. Bear in mind: "I (Jesus) and my Father are one."

Let's have none of this "Jesus is Jehovah." Jesus is Jesus. Jehovah is the Father although we allow that the Word was not dormant in Jehovah's actions.

gotime · Dec 21, 2013

Gjolll said:

I guess we agree to disagree then.

Blessings

secularhermit · Dec 21, 2013

Gjolll said:

I don´t think the WORD was hidden, if HE were, that would have been a LIE.

I will not laugh at a lying TOO MUCH like that, because the O.T. constantly said: There is ONLY ONE God (JWHW). On the contrary, I think some men hid HIS name, for a reason, and there GOD can teach us WHY, if He felt offended or vanished in some way.

FireWire · Dec 21, 2013

Well there's plenty of evidence in the bible to prove it. Just because we don't understand it doesn't mean it isn't true.

"I and the Father are One"

Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, [SUP]2 [/SUP]in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, [SUP]4 [/SUP]having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

And that's my first post in this forum!!

Gjolll · Dec 21, 2013

secularhermit said:

There is only one God, the Father, and the Father lives in the Word, and the Word in the Father. On a need to know basis, there was no need for the Israelites to know anything of this mystery. What was important for them to grasp was the unity of God.

Having said that, it is quite obvious that what has happened since the incarnation of the Word, is that exactly what the OT was designed to prevent, which is to say, the notion of two independent Gods in heaven, is being promulgated by numerous people calling themselves "Christians."

The notion of two Gods is pagan. There is no concept of the Son acting independently from the Father, or the Father from the Son. There's is a unity in heaven. The notion that "Jesus was the lord of the OT" infers, "Jesus to the exclusion of the Father." No way. Jesus did nothing to the exclusion of the Father, except whilst on earth, when he was a man, which the Father could not do as he is God.

The name "Jesus" or rather its Hebrew equivalent only ever applied to the child born to Mary.

To talk about two Gods acting independently of each other in heaven is just pagan.

secularhermit · Dec 21, 2013

sweetchristiangirl said:

I get what you say but, has God lied to Israel? He said He was ONE. He was too jelous when Israel worship other things (not deities) so we see GOD acted as any jelous human, many times to prove HE IS and WAS ONE.

We, as believers, insisting on talking things HE could explain FOR HIMSELF, in behave of our weak (or doubtful) understanding.

VCO · Dec 21, 2013

gotime said:

t t t

And that can be backed up in the New Testament:

2 Corinthians 5:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

stonesoffire · Dec 21, 2013

sa 53:9
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Seperate yet One.

gotime · Dec 21, 2013

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Notice that Jehovah on the earth rained fire from Jehovah in heaven.

gotime · Dec 21, 2013

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Paul says it was Christ with Israel.

gotime · Dec 21, 2013

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Peter argues that Jesus is the Jehovah that David was speaking about.

stonesoffire · Dec 21, 2013

Isa 5:24
Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

The preexistance of the Word who we call Yeshua, Jesus.

H565

אמרה אמרה

'imrâh 'emrâh

im-raw',
em-raw'
The second form is the feminine of
H561, and meaning the same: - commandment, speech, word.
or the Memra.

2Sa 23:2
The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

H7307

רוּח

rûach

roo'-akh

From
H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

LXX related word(s)

G129 haima

G417 anemos

G435 aner

G2250 hemera

G2372 thumos

G3313 meros

G3563 nous

G4151 pneuma

G4157 pnoe

G5428 phronesis

G5590 psuche

The word "word" there is dabar.

NWL · Dec 21, 2013

gotime said:

(1 King 10:13) "...And King Solomon gave to the queen of Sheba all that she desired, whatever she asked besides what was given her by the bounty of King Solomon..."

Using your own reasoning gotime does the above account prove King Solomon is part of a trinity? Of course it doesn't, likewise Genesis 19:24 doesn't prove God is apart of a Trinity, as the verse was obviously intended to mean that Jehovah rained down fire himself, this is how many translation render and understand 1 Kings 10:13 so why can't the same be applied to Gen 19.

(1 King 10:13) "...King Solomon gave the queen of Sheba all she desired and asked for, besides what he had given her out of his royal bounty..."

Remember that God was being represented by Angel(s) on Earth in that account of Genesis 19:24, and it's fully acceptable from a biblical standpoint for representatives of people to be called by the persons name whom they are representing. Therefore it was acceptable for the representing Angel to be called by Gods name himself, as the account below shows;

(Exodus 3:2) "...Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, why, here the thornbush was burning with the fire and yet the thornbush was not consumed..."

(Exodus 3:6) "...And he went on to say: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses concealed his face, because he was afraid to look at the [true] God..."

Who spoke to Moses Jehovah or and Angel? An Angel spoke but they were Gods words. Likewise in Genesis 19 it was the Angels who rained down fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, but since it was God who judged and commanded it, it was said that "Jehovah [the Angelic representative] made it rain fire and sulphur from Jehovah [who was in the heavens]"

Isdaniel · Dec 21, 2013

John 10:30

King James Version (KJV)

30 I and my Father are one.
John 17

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Isdaniel · Dec 21, 2013

[h=3]John 20:16-17[/h]King James Version (KJV)

16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

gotime · Dec 21, 2013

NWL said:

Thanx for your reply.

As to 1 King 10:13 First of all the verse you sited can be translated a number of ways. as you have already pointed out. however the very context and structure of the text puts what is being said in a very different place to Genesis 19:24.

The Text first says that the king gave her all that she desired. but the structure of the next part of the verse clearly is adding information to this.

lets examine it.

First half explains that the king gave the queen all she desired.
The second shows that she desired more than the original gift and this more also came from the king.

The structure and context of this text is totally different than Genesis. you can't bare a comparison simply based on the fact that a name is mentioned twice. on top of this most translations do not translate it in the fashion you have chosen to favor your view. So this argument at best is weak. I am not saying you are weak or implying anything on you personally just to clarify. but the argument itself holds little to no water.

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Just a quick read shows a total different structure and context. The structure very clearly shows that Jehovah brought fire from Jehovah out of heaven. The very mention of the location serves to differentiate the location of the two beings here mentioned.

As for the angel part, I wont go into that right now. except to say that it is error to assume that angel always means angelic being. it also means messenger, which can and is also applied to Jehovah. As for exodus 3, without going into all the scriptures which I am sure you can search out yourself.

Jesus who is God is also the main Messenger of God. Thus An angel/messenger of the Lord can be the Lord himself. Jesus claimed to be the great I AM. Paul says that it was Jesus who was with Moses. Jesus was the one Abraham saw. etc.

Put it all together.

blessings.

VCO · Dec 21, 2013

Isdaniel said:

John 14:9-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, “Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I speak to you I do not speak on My own. The Father who lives in Me does His works.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me. Otherwise, believe because of the works themselves.

Colossians 2:9 (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

stonesoffire · Dec 21, 2013

Because God is Spirit....they three are One. Doesn't mean that Yeshua was Father and Holy Spirit too.

The three manifestations of the One Lord.

There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

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