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S
Well according to the bible it is not biblical.
1Timothy 2:11-14 addresses this question most directly. 1Timothy 2:11-14: Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the wman was deceived and became a transgressor.
1Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9 assume that elders are going to be men. An elder (or bishop/overseer) must be the husband of one wife ( 1Tim.3:2; also Titus 1:6), and must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way (1Tim. 3:4)
Those are a couple of verses to help but to also see that the man is the head of the house hold as Christ is the head of the body of Christ. Does this make sense?
1Timothy 2:11-14 addresses this question most directly. 1Timothy 2:11-14: Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the wman was deceived and became a transgressor.
1Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9 assume that elders are going to be men. An elder (or bishop/overseer) must be the husband of one wife ( 1Tim.3:2; also Titus 1:6), and must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way (1Tim. 3:4)
Those are a couple of verses to help but to also see that the man is the head of the house hold as Christ is the head of the body of Christ. Does this make sense?
J
The Body of Christ, his true church is relational and not institutional. In the institutions that are called church where men or ordained by man and theology taught and degrees are obtained in seminaries (cemetaries I call them) to me, I could not care less if they ordained a woman or even a donkey, a homsexual. The instituion is going to grow darker and darker in the last days anyhow and his true children will not be able to stomache to stay. Those in the body of Christ, God know them that are his who worship him in spirit and in truth, they will do the will of the father and not go against what the word says and not have trouble with what it says, after all, this is only a temporal body that we are in anyhow. It is our ego and our flesh that gets upset about not having it's way or, it's desire. Pastors are only mentioned in the new testament once and they are not leaders of the church. There is a five fold minsitry. Pastors are supposed to see if flock is being fed and cared for. That is why the first church had all things in common and shared what they have with each other. Elders are older people in the Lord who are mature and servants. It is not a man appointed postion that the "institution" of the world church appoints.
The King James scholars translated key words in this passage with supposed English equivalents that bear much more autocratic overtones than did the Greek.
For instance, the Greek word Peitho that was translated obey appears only 55 times in the New Testament. It is only translated obey seven of those times. It would sound ridiculous to use the English word obey in most of the other passages where the Greek word Peitho appears. You be the judge.
The word Obey (peitho) is in the passive voice and simply means be persuaded.
"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." (Hebrews 13:17).
Note: The word over is not in the original Greek, but was added, so we should dismiss it and all that it implies. The King James scholars translated key words in this passage with supposed English equivalents that bear much more autocratic overtones than did the Greek.
For instance, the Greek word Peitho that was translated obey appears only 55 times in the New Testament. It is only translated obey seven of those times. It would sound ridiculous to use the English word obey in most of the other passages where the Greek word Peitho appears. You be the judge.
The word Obey (peitho) is in the passive voice and simply means be persuaded.
"Peitho: To persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe. To make friends of, to win one's favour, gain one's good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one. To tranquillise. To persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something. Be persuaded. To be persuaded, to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing. To believe." (Thayer and Smith Greek Lexicon)
"peitho, to persuade, to win over, in the Passive and Middle voices, to be persuaded, to listen to.... (Acts 5:40, Passive Voice, "they agreed"); The obedience suggested is not by submission to authority, but resulting from persuasion." (W. E. Vine, Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)
B
Titus is given instruction by Paul, to see to it that elders are ordained...that is, appointed...in every city.
Paul writes:
"For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:" and then a list of the necessary qualifications or traits follows. I don't recall being older as one of them.
Paul also writes to Timothy:
"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine."
Elders DO rule and they are appointed.
Being "old" is not a prerequisite.
J
Elders
The Greek word translated elder by the KJV translators is Presbuteros. According to W.E. Vine, Presbuteros is "an adjective, the comparative degree of presbus, an old man, an elder....of age, whether of the elder of two persons...the eldest...of a person advanced in life, a senior..."
How is it that the Greek adjective presbuteros, ("older" or "elderly") mysteriously became a noun, represented in the English text by two official sounding titles, i.e., presbyter and elder? Among 54 translators in the KJV panel, at least one of them should have known the difference between an adjective and a noun.
They changed the translation of the Greek word presbuteros, which was formerly translated priest by the papacy, to elder, Tyndale's translation of the word. They did, however, do all that was within their power to give the term elder the same priestly and hierarchical connotation.
In his book entitled The Royal Priesthood, Carl Ketcherside exposes this conspiracy, revealing how the Catholic Church, through sophistry, sought to make presbuteros (elder) into a priestly office, aloof from the rest of the believers.
It is amazing how much one little word can change the meaning of a passage of scripture. Such is the case with this word over. Take for instance, Paul's words to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20:28 which reads:
Peter instructed the presbuteros of his day regarding the nature of their work, reminding them of the perimeters set by the Lord Himself.
In his commentary on 1 Peter 5:3, William Macdonald wrote:
Have you ever known someone who so inspired your admiration, that you caught yourself taking on their manners, their gestures, even talking like they talk? What you experienced, for good or bad, was the life altering power of an example.
When I, Michael, was a young man, my aunt pointed out to me one day that I laughed and smiled like my dad. One day in my adolescent years I even caught myself walking like he did. That was strange, because my father had an artificial leg that made him walk with a slight limp.
If Jesus, the ultimate example, the one who is altogether lovely, the one who suffered the horrors of Calvary on your behalf, should stand before you right now, you would become like him. You could not do otherwise. For it is in seeing Him that we are transformed. The scriptures say that when He appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is (2 Corinthians 3:18). When the power (ginomai) of example is gone, all you have left is the tyranny of demanded conformity.
Because the true church is relational, not institutional, it makes sense only in a social context, a family context. In every truly healthy family, there is second and third generation communion. You have the grandchildren, the parents, and the grandparents. In that context, the grandparents are the elders. They possess the wisdom of years, and if godly, are in a position to teach by their words and example as no other family member can. Satan has done all he can possibly do to destroy the very concept of family, and to encourage the young in disrespect for the elderly, ignoring their counsel. Thus, we have witnessed the breakdown of the family and the church. The church is a family. It began in the heart of a loving Father who sent his only Son to bring many sons to glory. Oh, what manner of love the father has bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of God!
Paul wrote to Timothy, telling how he should relate to the elderly (presbuteros) in the family of God:
I (Michael) am reminded of a story that a brother in Christ told me. One day a pair of Mormon missionaries came to his door and they introduced themselves as Elder Jones and Elder Smith (not their real names). My friend said that the oldest one could not have been more than twenty years old. Finally my friend, who was much older than them, asked, "Elder to what?" They were totally flustered.
In the New Testament we have Timothy, who some call an apostle and others call a pastor (the scripture calling him neither), being instructed to relate to the elderly man as he would his father, with honor and respect. There is something unnatural about the young rebuking the elderly. In an ecclesiastical, hierarchical context, where authority is positional rather than relational, the issue of age is irrelevant. It all depends upon who has the title and position. In today’s institutional churches it would be perceived as a compromise of a pastor’s authority to relate to any untitled individual as his senior. However, in the family esteeming others as better or superior to yourself is normal, or at least it should be. (Philippians 2:3) The church itself has become the greatest enemy of the family by its institutionalized example. This was a masterstroke of the enemy. God wants his family back!
Presbytery
Paul wrote to Timothy:
Did Timothy receive a gift by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery? Yes he did! But what in the world is the presbytery? Oh, it has come to mean something to us through word association, as you can teach a baby that a cat is a rat by simply calling the cat a rat. And if you did it long enough, no one could convince him otherwise. Such is the power of tradition.
In his Non-ecclesiastical New Testament, Frank Daniels interpreted presbuterion as the elderly.
Had the King James translators translated the Greek word presbuterion correctly it would have been a direct violation of the King’s rules of translation. This was one of the key dominos that, if tipped, would bring down all the rest. They did, however, add their ecclesiastical translation in the margins as "council of elders." If the 16th century reader had known what a true elder was, that might have helped. To them an elder was someone who advanced his own brand of orthodoxy at the expense of the people. They knew nothing of the kind of love that motivated the godly elderly of the first century.
The Greek word translated elder by the KJV translators is Presbuteros. According to W.E. Vine, Presbuteros is "an adjective, the comparative degree of presbus, an old man, an elder....of age, whether of the elder of two persons...the eldest...of a person advanced in life, a senior..."
How is it that the Greek adjective presbuteros, ("older" or "elderly") mysteriously became a noun, represented in the English text by two official sounding titles, i.e., presbyter and elder? Among 54 translators in the KJV panel, at least one of them should have known the difference between an adjective and a noun.
They changed the translation of the Greek word presbuteros, which was formerly translated priest by the papacy, to elder, Tyndale's translation of the word. They did, however, do all that was within their power to give the term elder the same priestly and hierarchical connotation.
In his book entitled The Royal Priesthood, Carl Ketcherside exposes this conspiracy, revealing how the Catholic Church, through sophistry, sought to make presbuteros (elder) into a priestly office, aloof from the rest of the believers.
"The original word which is mistranslated "priests" by the Roman Catholic version is the Greek "presbuteros" which literally means "an aged person." The word for priest is "hiereus." Nothing can be more palpably misleading than the deliberate translation of a word to justify a practice; thus changing the Bible to suit a human system, rather than changing such a system to suit the Bible. To prove this grave charge I cite the very book of Acts, from which Dr. O'Brien quotes. There were both "priests" and "elders" among the Jews. Since Rome translates the word "presbuteros" (an aged man) by the term priests in Acts 14:22, what does she do when the words for both "priests" and "elders" occur in the same verse? Notice the Douay Version at Acts 6:23: "And being let go, they came to their own company, and related all that the chief priests (archiereis) and ancients (presbuteroi) had said to them." In Acts 23:14, the Douay Version reads: "Who came to the chief priests (archiereusin) and the ancients (presbuterois)." In Acts 25:15, "When I was at Jerusalem, the chief priests, and the ancients of the Jews, came unto me." Why did the translators from the Latin Vulgate not render the above by "chief priests and priests"? They knew that it was obvious that there were both priests and elders among the Jews, and an arbitrary translation of priests for "presbuteros" would be easily detected. Therefore they translated it by the word "ancients," which can be and is used in both an official and non-official sense in the New Covenant scriptures. Why then did theynot translate Acts 14:22 in conformity with their translation elsewhere, to read: "And when they had ordained to them ancients in every church, they commended them to the Lord in whom they believed"? Rome had to get her priestcraft in, even if she violated all laws of interpretation and forfeited all claims to consistency. Of such fragile, fanciful tissue is the great fabric of priestcraft woven."
The difference between the orthodox model of leadership today and the first century model is that one says, "Do as I say," while the other said, "Do as I do." One is positional and the other is relational. The world is starving for examples; people are desperately looking for heroes, someone to show them the way. The first century elderly understood that the only power they possessed to influence others was the power of love and of their example. Perhaps you are asking, but doesn't the Bible say that elders are responsible to rule over the flock? It is amazing how much one little word can change the meaning of a passage of scripture. Such is the case with this word over. Take for instance, Paul's words to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20:28 which reads:
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over (en) which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."
This is a deliberate mistranslation. It could be nothing else for it required that the simplest Greek preposition, en (in or among), which is used 2,700 times in the New Testament and is nowhere else translated over, should be translated over only here and that in the context of leadership.Peter instructed the presbuteros of his day regarding the nature of their work, reminding them of the perimeters set by the Lord Himself.
"Neither as being lords over (katakurieuo) God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)
The Greek word katakurieuo translated lords over in the above passage is a compound verb consisting of kata, down, and kurieuo, to exercise lordship. Katakurieuo describes how a lord typically relates to a minion. He relates down (kata) because he is thought to be above or over. It is certain that Peter was remembering the words of Christ, who said "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over (katakurieuo) them … It shall not be so among you…" Jesus forbids His followers to lord-down upon each other. Instead, he reminds us that he who would be great must be a servant and whoever would be first must be a slave, even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. (See Matthew 20:25-28.)In his commentary on 1 Peter 5:3, William Macdonald wrote:
"Elders should be examples, not dictators. They should be walking out in front of the flock, not driving them from behind. They should not treat the flock as if it belonged to them. This strikes at the very heart of authoritarianism! Many of the abuses in Christendom would be eliminated by simply obeying the three instructions in verses 2, 3. The first would abolish all reluctance. The second would spell the end of commercialism. The third would be the death of officialism in the church."
The first century presbuterion were the elderly who followed in Christ's example of servanthood and were recognized (See Philippians 3:17). These men were not lords over or controllers of God’s heritage. They were, "…examples becoming (ginomai) the flock…"(Morris Literal Translation). Ginomai is the Greek word from which we get our English word generate. It is a primary verb, meaning to cause to be ("gen"-erate) or bring into being. Ginomai speaks of the power of example, the power to energize and inspire what they modeled. What we are talking about is the power of a life laid down. "Greater love has no man than this," and as sacrifice begets greater sacrifice, the body of Christ is energized toward greater and greater service. This is the example Jesus left us. He came to serve. Not to receive service as a king, but to give service as a slave. In this up-side-down kingdom, there is no thought of ruling over another; no thought of promotion, for if the King came as a servant, what then are we to do? Have you ever known someone who so inspired your admiration, that you caught yourself taking on their manners, their gestures, even talking like they talk? What you experienced, for good or bad, was the life altering power of an example.
When I, Michael, was a young man, my aunt pointed out to me one day that I laughed and smiled like my dad. One day in my adolescent years I even caught myself walking like he did. That was strange, because my father had an artificial leg that made him walk with a slight limp.
If Jesus, the ultimate example, the one who is altogether lovely, the one who suffered the horrors of Calvary on your behalf, should stand before you right now, you would become like him. You could not do otherwise. For it is in seeing Him that we are transformed. The scriptures say that when He appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is (2 Corinthians 3:18). When the power (ginomai) of example is gone, all you have left is the tyranny of demanded conformity.
Because the true church is relational, not institutional, it makes sense only in a social context, a family context. In every truly healthy family, there is second and third generation communion. You have the grandchildren, the parents, and the grandparents. In that context, the grandparents are the elders. They possess the wisdom of years, and if godly, are in a position to teach by their words and example as no other family member can. Satan has done all he can possibly do to destroy the very concept of family, and to encourage the young in disrespect for the elderly, ignoring their counsel. Thus, we have witnessed the breakdown of the family and the church. The church is a family. It began in the heart of a loving Father who sent his only Son to bring many sons to glory. Oh, what manner of love the father has bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of God!
Paul wrote to Timothy, telling how he should relate to the elderly (presbuteros) in the family of God:
"Rebuke not an elder, (presbuteros) but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; The elder (presbuteros) women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity." (1 Timothy 5:1-2)
The context of this scripture is completely relational, not institutional, and makes sense only in a family context. There is the mention of father, mothers, sisters and brethren. This sounds like a family to us. In the Greek, presbuteros is used for both old men and old women. In an attempt to institutionalize, all of these dear family terms became offices in the papal church. And since they could not recognize any title without ordination, everything that was once relational and family was displaced, and all but lost in the institution. Leadership gradually became more and more hierarchical until the supreme leader of this fallen church bore both the temporal and spiritual swords, sitting on a luxurious throne in extravagant robes wielding the kingly scepter of power and rule. Such men have bequeathed to us much that is called Christian leadership today.I (Michael) am reminded of a story that a brother in Christ told me. One day a pair of Mormon missionaries came to his door and they introduced themselves as Elder Jones and Elder Smith (not their real names). My friend said that the oldest one could not have been more than twenty years old. Finally my friend, who was much older than them, asked, "Elder to what?" They were totally flustered.
In the New Testament we have Timothy, who some call an apostle and others call a pastor (the scripture calling him neither), being instructed to relate to the elderly man as he would his father, with honor and respect. There is something unnatural about the young rebuking the elderly. In an ecclesiastical, hierarchical context, where authority is positional rather than relational, the issue of age is irrelevant. It all depends upon who has the title and position. In today’s institutional churches it would be perceived as a compromise of a pastor’s authority to relate to any untitled individual as his senior. However, in the family esteeming others as better or superior to yourself is normal, or at least it should be. (Philippians 2:3) The church itself has become the greatest enemy of the family by its institutionalized example. This was a masterstroke of the enemy. God wants his family back!
Presbytery
Paul wrote to Timothy:
"Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery (presbuterion)." (1 Timothy 4:14)
Since it is one of the transliterated words we referred to earlier, Presbytery should be suspect. For what reason did it go untranslated? In what way would that make the passage clearer? Did Timothy receive a gift by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery? Yes he did! But what in the world is the presbytery? Oh, it has come to mean something to us through word association, as you can teach a baby that a cat is a rat by simply calling the cat a rat. And if you did it long enough, no one could convince him otherwise. Such is the power of tradition.
In his Non-ecclesiastical New Testament, Frank Daniels interpreted presbuterion as the elderly.
"Do not neglect the gift that is in you which was given to you through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elderly." (1 Timothy 4:14)
We recognize that being elderly does not necessarily make one Godly. There are old sinners as well as young ones. The elderly in reference here are the godly elderly who laid down their lives for the flock, who followed in the footsteps of the serving Christ.Had the King James translators translated the Greek word presbuterion correctly it would have been a direct violation of the King’s rules of translation. This was one of the key dominos that, if tipped, would bring down all the rest. They did, however, add their ecclesiastical translation in the margins as "council of elders." If the 16th century reader had known what a true elder was, that might have helped. To them an elder was someone who advanced his own brand of orthodoxy at the expense of the people. They knew nothing of the kind of love that motivated the godly elderly of the first century.
"While older members (presbyters) owe a special responsibility to the younger members in teaching and example, the church is without officers to rule or make decisions. It is a body of loving interaction and full participation." (Dr. Norman Park, It Shall Not Be So Among You)
S
When you bring up a subject like this there is so much more that needs to be considered in the scriptures. You have made some statements that need to be applied and compared to other scriptures. When you compare, you get a better and more thorough understanding. If you are going to say that Heb 13:17 does not have the word over, because it was added (or is a bad translation) then you have to also apply that to verse 7 & 24 of the same chapter. If that is true can you also say the same about 1Thes 5:12 that deals with the same subject?
12And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
Is the phrase over you in the Lord not in the original Greek in this verse? It is in the original Greek language and it needs to be addressed.
VINES; Greek: proistemi ~ "to stand before," hence "to lead, to direct, attend to," is translated "rule," with reference to the family, in 1Tim 3:4,5,12 with reference to the church, in Rom 12:8; 1Thes 5:12"are over;" 1Tim 5:17, In Titus 3:8,14, it signifies "to maintain."
Heb 13:7 needs an exegete (word by word interpretation) all the way through and then compared to other scriptures having done the same. Your attempt is noble but incomplete because it leaves the listener or reader without all the information they need to have a good and balanced understanding. It would also be helpful to know the vocation and task of a shepherd over his flock and relate that to the vocation and task of a pastor in the church (Eph 4:11) because they both are the same Greek word ~ poimen; a masculine noun that VINES defines as the following;
1) a herdsman, esp. a shepherd
- in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
2) the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
- of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
- of kings and princes
A shepherd in the Near East was responsible for watching out for enemies trying to attack the sheep, defending the sheep from attackers, healing the wounded and sick sheep, finding and saving lost or trapped sheep, loving them, and sharing their lives and to earn their trust.
12And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
Is the phrase over you in the Lord not in the original Greek in this verse? It is in the original Greek language and it needs to be addressed.
VINES; Greek: proistemi ~ "to stand before," hence "to lead, to direct, attend to," is translated "rule," with reference to the family, in 1Tim 3:4,5,12 with reference to the church, in Rom 12:8; 1Thes 5:12"are over;" 1Tim 5:17, In Titus 3:8,14, it signifies "to maintain."
Heb 13:7 needs an exegete (word by word interpretation) all the way through and then compared to other scriptures having done the same. Your attempt is noble but incomplete because it leaves the listener or reader without all the information they need to have a good and balanced understanding. It would also be helpful to know the vocation and task of a shepherd over his flock and relate that to the vocation and task of a pastor in the church (Eph 4:11) because they both are the same Greek word ~ poimen; a masculine noun that VINES defines as the following;
1) a herdsman, esp. a shepherd
- in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
2) the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
- of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
- of kings and princes
A shepherd in the Near East was responsible for watching out for enemies trying to attack the sheep, defending the sheep from attackers, healing the wounded and sick sheep, finding and saving lost or trapped sheep, loving them, and sharing their lives and to earn their trust.
J
Yes, shpherds are to protect the sheep and be willing to lay down their lives for the sheep. Today, it is different, if you would bring in unadulterated truth in the form of a gift of the spirit of God, say for instance, prophesy or teaching, if it clashes with the doctrine of the pastor (sheperd) they would use the excuse that they are protecting the sheep to stop the truth from setting the body free from traditions and doctrines of man that pastor's theology and what he was taught at the seminary. In otherwords, it is more important for them to protect their own kingdoms, rather than the kingdom of God and hide it behind the lie of "protecting the sheep". They have their own interests at risk and they want their paychecks coming through their tithes and offerings. That is also why they will not allow a person to minister in the gift that God has given them until they know that person will not be a threat to their kingdom. They must first get to "know" that person. They even admit it. They say that they have to get to "know" you before you can minister in your gift. They just want to be sure that you will not say any of the word of God that will clash with their doctrines of man. When I tell you this, I am not giving you an example of what I have personally experienced but from what I have heard and witnessed and how it has become "the silence of the lambs" in their pews, keeping them quiet and contained in a "safe" atmostphere. The King James and other translations have deliberately left in very poor translations to try to keep their institutions a hierarchy having a rulership of elitists that are not truly servants ordained by Christ. They are ordained by man, having a piece of paper certificate but that does not mean that they are God's choice. Not all of the pastors are that way mind you. I will guess and say that about a tenth 10%, a tithe of God are God's pastors and five fold ministry.!
B
Christians must not have arguments about women as pastors, elders or overseers in the church.We must be thankful to God for having women who stand with boldness on this positions in spite of their weakness being a woman. The instruction of Apostle Paul to Timothy for women to submit and not to teach over men probably because of some problem during that time in their church. He gave the reason related to the weakness of Eve when tempted by Satan. But it also show the fault of Adam in not standing as the head of Eve. We can see such kind of men at their home this time. Those who carry this doctrine must consider the circustances of the time, the present works of the Holy Spirit and understand God deeper in their heart. This case should not cause strife between Christians or group of Christians.
Several times the Bible says, God is not a respecter of person. God sees any man or a woman in the same level regardless of work or service. God looks at the heart of a person whether a man or a woman. It is clear truth that a married woman must submit to her husband. But the husband and the wife must submit to God. If the wife desire to serve God as a pastor, elder, or overseers, she can do so provided she is capable in the position.
I believe men is preferable for this positions but if they do not submit to God and are not willing, women who cares to serve can take their place.the Bible say, "By the fruit we shall know them," and I can see women who excel in their teaching and preaching with men in their audience. Men in church organizations should remove their pride and must have humility to accept the spiritual gifts given to a woman.
Several times the Bible says, God is not a respecter of person. God sees any man or a woman in the same level regardless of work or service. God looks at the heart of a person whether a man or a woman. It is clear truth that a married woman must submit to her husband. But the husband and the wife must submit to God. If the wife desire to serve God as a pastor, elder, or overseers, she can do so provided she is capable in the position.
I believe men is preferable for this positions but if they do not submit to God and are not willing, women who cares to serve can take their place.the Bible say, "By the fruit we shall know them," and I can see women who excel in their teaching and preaching with men in their audience. Men in church organizations should remove their pride and must have humility to accept the spiritual gifts given to a woman.
J
The problem is about "you shall know them by their fruits", you don't even truly know what a person's life is until you live with them. What we see out in front is usually not what they truly are like at home, men and women alike. I discern by what doctrines they teach. When a man or woman start off a sermon with "will a man rob God", then, I turn and shake the dust from my feet. That is just only one among a few you can test by but it sure saves time.
