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Isaiah 42:8
I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
What was Jesus talking about? God doesn't share His glory.. Jesus couldn't have been another God but could He have been the same God?
Isaiah 44:8
Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’”
Just curious what you think about that, also..
Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘ I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God
I posted Isaiah 44:6 because in Revelation... Well....
Revelation 1
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
Those are the words of Jesus saying HE is the First and the Last.
According to Isaiah 44:6 Jehovah is the First and the Last.
Either you care to explain this or you are calling God's Word a lie.
(posted this on another thread so I just moved it over here)
I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
What was Jesus talking about? God doesn't share His glory.. Jesus couldn't have been another God but could He have been the same God?
Isaiah 44:8
Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’”
Just curious what you think about that, also..
Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘ I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God
I posted Isaiah 44:6 because in Revelation... Well....
Revelation 1
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
Those are the words of Jesus saying HE is the First and the Last.
According to Isaiah 44:6 Jehovah is the First and the Last.
Either you care to explain this or you are calling God's Word a lie.
(posted this on another thread so I just moved it over here)
If you're talking to me: Your belief in the TRINITY will not allow you to see the father son connection. It will also not allow you to see Jesus is not God. He told us countless times that he was not God and yet people refuse to believe him.
"Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?" Mat 21:34-40
This parable is the story of Jesus. Jesus is the son in this story that was sent from heaven by his father. The servants shown here are the prophets that were rejected and killed as well. Jesus is not God, never has been, never will be. The wrath of God does not come from Jesus, it comes from God.
"Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?" Mat 21:34-40
This parable is the story of Jesus. Jesus is the son in this story that was sent from heaven by his father. The servants shown here are the prophets that were rejected and killed as well. Jesus is not God, never has been, never will be. The wrath of God does not come from Jesus, it comes from God.
C an we possibly drop the holier-than-thou thing?
I was actually just watching the video you've posted, and gonna prepare a response to it. Is there a point to even doing that?
I'm sorry, but I don't go in for this whole judging one another's hearts bit.. That's G-d's job. It is not an element of Christianity that attracts me, in fact it rather reminds me of why I do feel more comfortable in a shul than in a church (with a few exceptions, like the Adventists).
If we can't come to a fundamental understanding that people can disagree on matters of doctrine without rejecting G-d's Word wholesale, then I think it's probably best that we just not discuss such matters.
Already, I've taken that stance in skipping several threads since I've been here which had either gotten divisive, or had the potential to do so. I shall have to pray on this, as it is important to me, but at this time, I think this topic, or at least this thread, is probably another I must add to that list, as it seems an affront to the holy love with which we are supposed to treat one another. I'm not perfect on this, far from it, and that's exactly why I don't want to snap and say something I might regret based on statements like that one I've quoted.
*edit* Oh, it's just as well, actually. I also can't in good conscience participate in a conversation where the Name of G-d is used unnecessarily, in compliance with the 2nd of 10 commandments listed it Exodus 20. There's all sorts of other words we can use to be clear. "G-d" works, as does "Father" or even "Hashem" or its English equvilent The Name.. It's really not a necessary thing to the conversation, to use His Name.
I was actually just watching the video you've posted, and gonna prepare a response to it. Is there a point to even doing that?
I'm sorry, but I don't go in for this whole judging one another's hearts bit.. That's G-d's job. It is not an element of Christianity that attracts me, in fact it rather reminds me of why I do feel more comfortable in a shul than in a church (with a few exceptions, like the Adventists).
If we can't come to a fundamental understanding that people can disagree on matters of doctrine without rejecting G-d's Word wholesale, then I think it's probably best that we just not discuss such matters.
Already, I've taken that stance in skipping several threads since I've been here which had either gotten divisive, or had the potential to do so. I shall have to pray on this, as it is important to me, but at this time, I think this topic, or at least this thread, is probably another I must add to that list, as it seems an affront to the holy love with which we are supposed to treat one another. I'm not perfect on this, far from it, and that's exactly why I don't want to snap and say something I might regret based on statements like that one I've quoted.
*edit* Oh, it's just as well, actually. I also can't in good conscience participate in a conversation where the Name of G-d is used unnecessarily, in compliance with the 2nd of 10 commandments listed it Exodus 20. There's all sorts of other words we can use to be clear. "G-d" works, as does "Father" or even "Hashem" or its English equvilent The Name.. It's really not a necessary thing to the conversation, to use His Name.
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short version?
Pending soime prayer on the matter, I'm withdrawing from this thread, based on the above-quoted statement, that non-trinitarians reject the Bible. I don't feel such a dialogue is conducive to the holy love with which we are to treat one another, and as this is a matter which I myself need to work on at times, I'm giving that priority. I wasn't exactly "undecided" on the matter anyway, but initially, I saw no harm in discussing it. Now I do.
Pending soime prayer on the matter, I'm withdrawing from this thread, based on the above-quoted statement, that non-trinitarians reject the Bible. I don't feel such a dialogue is conducive to the holy love with which we are to treat one another, and as this is a matter which I myself need to work on at times, I'm giving that priority. I wasn't exactly "undecided" on the matter anyway, but initially, I saw no harm in discussing it. Now I do.
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Sorry to everyone who I offended by saying that. I was just saying to me.. (yes to me). The bible makes it so extremely clear that God consists of more than one person. For example.
Psalm 45:7
You love righteousness and hate wickedness;Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.
Do you see what I mean? I am just saying God has to be more than one person for the bible to make sense. Jesus claims to be the first and the last. Jehovah says He is the first and the last. I believe there is a Father who is God and I believe there is a Son who is God and the Holy Spirit who is God.
Like I said sorry I offended anyone by saying Jesus is God.
That whole elohiym thing.. God being plural just made sense to me. Do you at least see where I am coming from?
Psalm 45:7
You love righteousness and hate wickedness;Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.
Do you see what I mean? I am just saying God has to be more than one person for the bible to make sense. Jesus claims to be the first and the last. Jehovah says He is the first and the last. I believe there is a Father who is God and I believe there is a Son who is God and the Holy Spirit who is God.
Like I said sorry I offended anyone by saying Jesus is God.
That whole elohiym thing.. God being plural just made sense to me. Do you at least see where I am coming from?
You asked. Now listen. Jesus did not say "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End." That was God who said it in Rev 21:6
Consider: "Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." Rev 21:5
Jesus does not sit on the throne of God, he sits beside it. John was quoting God, not Jesus.
"And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him." Rev 22:3
"To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." Rev 3:21
"And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth." Rev 5:6
When you're reading your bible it helps to go back and gather the content of the subject or where the conversation started. In this case, the conversation started in chapter 21 in Rev and it is the voice of God who is explaining things to John. Therefore, again, it was not Jesus who was claiming to be the first and the last, it was God. Just like Is. 44:6.
No where did Jesus ever claim to be God or equal to him.
Consider: "Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." Rev 21:5
Jesus does not sit on the throne of God, he sits beside it. John was quoting God, not Jesus.
"And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him." Rev 22:3
"To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." Rev 3:21
"And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth." Rev 5:6
When you're reading your bible it helps to go back and gather the content of the subject or where the conversation started. In this case, the conversation started in chapter 21 in Rev and it is the voice of God who is explaining things to John. Therefore, again, it was not Jesus who was claiming to be the first and the last, it was God. Just like Is. 44:6.
No where did Jesus ever claim to be God or equal to him.
D
Oh really so you do believe that God died?
Revelation 1
15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;
16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
Hello it's in YOUR bible Jesus said that!!
Isaiah 44:8
Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’”
Obviously it's clear right there that Jehovah is the First and the Last. Jesus says in Revelation 1:17 "I am the First and the Last" then goes on to say I am He who lives and was dead.. Umm So are you saying Jehovah died? (I didn't think you would say that).. So Jesus did die and is alive forevermore amen. You my friend need to keep things in context. That's besides the fact you're quoting Revelation 21 and I'm referring to Revelation 1 and Isaiah 44:6.
Second...Where in Scripture does Jesus say that He is equal with the Father ...
Well apart from John 10:30 I and My Father are one.... Let's see here.. Try the hymm of Christ.
Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
Revelation 1
15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;
16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
Hello it's in YOUR bible Jesus said that!!
Isaiah 44:8
Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’”
Obviously it's clear right there that Jehovah is the First and the Last. Jesus says in Revelation 1:17 "I am the First and the Last" then goes on to say I am He who lives and was dead.. Umm So are you saying Jehovah died? (I didn't think you would say that).. So Jesus did die and is alive forevermore amen. You my friend need to keep things in context. That's besides the fact you're quoting Revelation 21 and I'm referring to Revelation 1 and Isaiah 44:6.
Second...Where in Scripture does Jesus say that He is equal with the Father ...
Well apart from John 10:30 I and My Father are one.... Let's see here.. Try the hymm of Christ.
Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
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No because that isn't what the word means. English is not like Hebrew.. Hebrew is the Holy Language and a lot of words don't translate into other languages.
For example...Sheol and Hades.. Sheol you would find in the OT and Hades you would find in the NT. Both translate to "Hell" but they both don't mean the idea of "Hell" as we know it.
Sheol is the proper Hebrew word which means underworld that word is from the OT. Hades is the Greek word, but it's not equivilent.. That is just the closest word. So Hades means the grave, not under world. Hades is related to the religious philophies of Greek which is a pagan language in the first place. Keep in mind all the writers were all Hebrew writing in Greek (in the NT at least).
On the other hand.. Sheol was seperated into 2 parts, the part of torment (evil wicked)
and Abraham's bosom (righteous) Sheol doesn't just simply mean "grave" or "asleep" it actually means underworld. However we know that Abraham's Bosom is not there anymore the righteous are in Heaven with God.
That is just one example of how you can't correctly translate Hebrew words into pagan languages. I actually learned that from one of the chatters on CC.. He lives in Israel and speaks Hebrew. He is also the one who told me about Elohim. Which is plural but not in the sense "Gods" more then one God. It's one God but plural as in more than one person who is God.
For example...Sheol and Hades.. Sheol you would find in the OT and Hades you would find in the NT. Both translate to "Hell" but they both don't mean the idea of "Hell" as we know it.
Sheol is the proper Hebrew word which means underworld that word is from the OT. Hades is the Greek word, but it's not equivilent.. That is just the closest word. So Hades means the grave, not under world. Hades is related to the religious philophies of Greek which is a pagan language in the first place. Keep in mind all the writers were all Hebrew writing in Greek (in the NT at least).
On the other hand.. Sheol was seperated into 2 parts, the part of torment (evil wicked)
and Abraham's bosom (righteous) Sheol doesn't just simply mean "grave" or "asleep" it actually means underworld. However we know that Abraham's Bosom is not there anymore the righteous are in Heaven with God.
That is just one example of how you can't correctly translate Hebrew words into pagan languages. I actually learned that from one of the chatters on CC.. He lives in Israel and speaks Hebrew. He is also the one who told me about Elohim. Which is plural but not in the sense "Gods" more then one God. It's one God but plural as in more than one person who is God.
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