The Israel of God

[zone]

Hi zone , this is just a respectful inquiry, and please all who read this respond respectfully, thank you:
Yes, that is correct Daniel does speak of Jacob's Trouble as well as other parts of the Bible (unless I am mistaken), that speak of that period of time, namely 'The Tribulation'.

Part of the scripture you posted states: "finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins", and also "to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy".

The scriptures I put in parenthesis, have not completely been accomplished yet. Yes Jesus made an atonement for sin, but there has not been an "end to sins" as of yet; additionally, "everlasting righteousness" has not yet been established, and the very last portion, says to "seal up", I believe in another part, it's sealed up until the time of the end.

From what I understand and have been taught, only 69 of the 70 weeks of Daniel have been fulfilled and the 70th week will be the official 'Great Tribulation'. I am certain the Bible lists it as "Great". From my understanding we have been in the "Last Days for a long time now."

I am trying to find out, what parts you saw that the Tribulation/Jacob's Trouble (for the are one and the same), has begun already? I have come to a different conclusion. Can you please elaborate a little? Thanks.

hi Braveheartgal
i'll come back to this (i'll find another thread on the 70 weeks/Jacob's Trouble).
not enuff coffee yet
just keep in mind (as you know) that Jacob's Trouble was about Israel the nation. it's not about us.
some get around this by having the 'Church" raptured off the scene before it starts.
which is ridiculous.

it was over in 70AD, (though there were wars and rebellions after that as well...but God considered the end of it all 70AD - for the reprobates....the elect were saved out of it - tribulation).

 

[SarahM777]

Chosen,

By the way,if Revelation is in chronological order it means once all the water turns to blood,everything else MUST be completed within 48-72 hours under the best of conditions. It is the maximum that most animals and man can live WITHOUT WATER.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Your a Hoot Peaceful!
Yes I know what a Gnostic is, thank you.
and thank you for all those Scriptures that was rolling around in your head!

The Gnostic Gap is a rabbit hole.

The Dispensationalist in the 18th century proclaimed it was indeed the last days but they lied to Church and world.
as they did in the 19th Century; as they did in the 20th Century; as they are doing now in 21st Century!

No all of the above in my other post could not be about any other church; maybe cults.

The last days, latter days, end of days; 2nd coming, or rapture,
are usually followed by immediately; in a blink of an eye; as lighting shines in the east and is seen in the west!

My, My! The Holy Spirit must be nothing but a liar, in the Dispensational Churches!
For almost 300 years the Holy Spirit in these people have done nothing but lie!
I guess it's the Holy Spirit? What else could it be? maybe, let's see; no possibly,
THE DEVIL! Sorry i had to do that!

Now, let's hear you weave another excuse!

But then your in the rabbit hole! Never mind !@$%$^*^*__

It's okay ProphetExcalibur - I can take your sarcasm. Please explain to me then what you believe the 'mystery that was hidden before the foundation of the world' to be. Thanks.

 

[zone]

Daniel's 70th wk, is given in two 3 and 1/2 year periods.
Which suggests there is a break between them, not an unknown gap of thousands of years.
but there is no break between the 69th year and the 70 year!
so they are begun one after another, 69th week, 70th week.
Which means the last half of this 70 wk prophecy,
will be fulfilled within the same time period it began.

This 70th wk brings us to the time of Messiah; Jesus 3 and 1/2 yr ministry,
where He is cut off in the middle of the week.
with a break of 40 years, to the timeline of the Holocaust and destruction of the Temple by Titus.
and your last 3 and 1/2 yrs of Daniel's 70th week.

there's not even the 40 year gap in there.
all 70 weeks were fulfilled...followed by 40 years of preaching repentance and God's patience....THEN Titus came.
the 40 years and the event of 70AD is written of in that prophecy, but is NOT included in the 70 weeks.

 

[zone]

It's okay ProphetExcalibur - I can take your sarcasm. Please explain to me then what you believe the 'mystery that was hidden before the foundation of the world' to be. Thanks.

Ephesians 3
The Mystery of the Gospel Revealed
1For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.


Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

...

no distinction
no mystery gap
no church separate from Israel
no Israel separate from the church
nothing like that.

the Mystery is THE GOSPEL...and that through IT: the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

that was Israel's promise...God told the gentiles would be included all the way back in Genesis.
no gaps; no parenthesis.

Jesus Christ Crucified for jew & gentile...all called through THE GOSPEL.

the end.

 

[Elin]

Zone, why do you use the phrase "xians". I know what it is referring to, but I've only seen specific groups/organizations of people use that term. I wont say here which kind, but I am just curious what your use of it means?

In early Christian, and still in Catholic, liturgy, X stands for Christ.

 

[zone]

In early Christian, and still in Catholic, liturgy, X stands for Christ.

oops...i guess i'll find something like ex-tian zionists

 

[Elin]

oops...i guess i'll find something like ex-tian zionists

Actually, the symbol is two Greek letters, Chi and Rho

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Ephesians 3
The Mystery of the Gospel Revealed
1For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.


Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

...

no distinction
no mystery gap
no church separate from Israel
no Israel separate from the church
nothing like that.

the Mystery is THE GOSPEL...and that through IT: the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

that was Israel's promise...God told the gentiles would be included all the way back in Genesis.
no gaps; no parenthesis.

Jesus Christ Crucified for jew & gentile...all called through THE GOSPEL.

the end.

It couldn't have been told all the way back in Genesis - because God said it was hid from ages and generations - from before the foundation of the world - so which do I believe? oops another contradiction -

This gospel that Paul refers to as 'my gospel' (Romans 16:25) which is the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret since the world began - Paul was given stewardship of this dispensation/administration of grace - how by revelation Jesus Christ made known unto him the mystery - the gospel which was preached by him was not after men but he received it by revelation of Jesus Christ - Christ revealed to him something that heretofore was NOT KNOWN - HID FROM GENERATIONS AND AGES. It's so much more than gentiles being fellow heirs. . . .it is the gospel of God's grace; it is the gospel of our salvation that Paul was given - because of Christ's death and resurrection - it is God in Christ dwelling in us making us righteous, justifying us, sanctifying us - the miraculous sending of the gift of holy Spirit - that those who by grace through faith in Jesus Christ become the body of Christ - with Christ as the head - that was kept secret before the foundation of the world - had Satan known it he would not have worked within the heart of Judas nor those Jews responsible for crucifying our Lord (1 Cor. 2:8) OT believers saw shadows of what was to come - they did not see in full - which salvation they inquired and searched diligently - a veil was over their faces so that they could not see that which was coming was to be so much more glorious than they could ever understand. . . and to this day that veil remains - but one day we all with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, will be changed into the same image from glory to glory even as by the Spirit of the Lord. - the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me . . . The mystery is so much more than Gentiles being fellow heirs.

This mystery, this secret that was revealed to Paul - the apostles weren't able to handle this revelation before - "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." And by what he told Nicodemus - "If I told you of earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" They weren't ready in that dispensation/administration for the revelation that was given to Paul - (you want to call it a gap; call it a gap - I really don't care), it was something that wasn't known or revealed until it was given to Paul.

 

[zone]

It couldn't have been told all the way back in Genesis - because God said it was hid from ages and generations - from before the foundation of the world - so which do I believe? oops another contradiction -

it has not been a mystery for 2013+ years.
come on - Adam & Eve understood - Eve prolly thought she was already delivering the Savior

this is why - the NT interprets the OT.
it all comes down to Paul (for the dispensationalist).

what is Paul saying?
did the Patriarchs understand the mystery in their own way?
we are told they did.
Israel's hope was always the Messiah.

what they hardened their hearts to by the time Jesus appeared,
was that gentiles would be included.

and it is the GOSPEL - the scandalous MESSAGE of the bloody cross that was the HOW-MYSTERY

Galatians 3
7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

 

[weakness]

Col. 1:25 Wherefore I am made a minister , according to the dispensation of God given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;(26) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: (27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you the hope of glory.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

it has not been a mystery for 2013+ years.
come on - Adam & Eve understood - Eve prolly thought she was already delivering the Savior

this is why - the NT interprets the OT.
it all comes down to Paul (for the dispensationalist).

what is Paul saying?
did the Patriarchs understand the mystery in their own way?
we are told they did.
Israel's hope was always the Messiah.

what they hardened their hearts to by the time Jesus appeared,
was that gentiles would be included.

and it is the GOSPEL - the scandalous MESSAGE of the bloody cross that was the HOW-MYSTERY

Galatians 3
7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

a mystery for 2013 + years - IT WAS REVEALED TO PAUL
Why were they astonished when the gift of Holy Spirit was poured out also on the Gentiles and that the Gentiles had been granted repentance unto life if they knew and understood the mystery? It goes much further than the Gentiles being granted repentance - it is that we are a part of the body of Christ - THAT is the church. Israel's hope was in a conquering Messiah instead they got a suffering Messiah that is why they rejected him.

Paul received more revelation than any other disciple - so yep I would say that what he wrote by inspiration from God was pretty important. He spoke of a mystery/secret that was hid before the foundation of the world; a mystery/secret that was hid from ages and generations but was now revealed . . . . and that he received it by revelation of Jesus Christ - which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Did the patriarchs understand the mystery? Not fully - they saw foreshadowing of things to come. When we look at a 'shadow' it is not a clear reflection but a dark reflection. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which was abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Oh well, you are my sister in Christ zone. . . .I can not do without you nor can you do without me.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye where would be the hearing, if the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling. But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member where were the body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of you: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, . . . . . .but God has tempered the body together . . . . that the members should have the same care one for another . . . . Now we are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Christ being the head . . . . . that is the Church. Love ya

 

[zone]

Col. 1:25 Wherefore I am made a minister , according to the dispensation of God given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;(26) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: (27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you the hope of glory.

..........

 

[zone]

a mystery for 2013 + years - IT WAS REVEALED TO PAUL
Why were they astonished when the gift of Holy Spirit was poured out also on the Gentiles and that the Gentiles had been granted repentance unto life if they knew and understood the mystery? It goes much further than the Gentiles being granted repentance - it is that we are a part of the body of Christ - THAT is the church. Israel's hope was in a conquering Messiah instead they got a suffering Messiah that is why they rejected him.

Paul received more revelation than any other disciple - so yep I would say that what he wrote by inspiration from God was pretty important. He spoke of a mystery/secret that was hid before the foundation of the world; a mystery/secret that was hid from ages and generations but was now revealed . . . . and that he received it by revelation of Jesus Christ - which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Did the patriarchs understand the mystery? Not fully - they saw foreshadowing of things to come. When we look at a 'shadow' it is not a clear reflection but a dark reflection. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which was abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Oh well, you are my sister in Christ zone. . . .I can not do without you nor can you do without me.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye where would be the hearing, if the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling. But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member where were the body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of you: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, . . . . . .but God has tempered the body together . . . . that the members should have the same care one for another . . . . Now we are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Christ being the head . . . . . that is the Church. Love ya

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

love you too peaceful.

 

[BradC]

a mystery for 2013 + years - IT WAS REVEALED TO PAUL
Why were they astonished when the gift of Holy Spirit was poured out also on the Gentiles and that the Gentiles had been granted repentance unto life if they knew and understood the mystery? It goes much further than the Gentiles being granted repentance - it is that we are a part of the body of Christ - THAT is the church. Israel's hope was in a conquering Messiah instead they got a suffering Messiah that is why they rejected him.

Paul received more revelation than any other disciple - so yep I would say that what he wrote by inspiration from God was pretty important. He spoke of a mystery/secret that was hid before the foundation of the world; a mystery/secret that was hid from ages and generations but was now revealed . . . . and that he received it by revelation of Jesus Christ - which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Did the patriarchs understand the mystery? Not fully - they saw foreshadowing of things to come. When we look at a 'shadow' it is not a clear reflection but a dark reflection. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which was abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Oh well, you are my sister in Christ zone. . . .I can not do without you nor can you do without me.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye where would be the hearing, if the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling. But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member where were the body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of you: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, . . . . . .but God has tempered the body together . . . . that the members should have the same care one for another . . . . Now we are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Christ being the head . . . . . that is the Church. Love ya

It's a curious thing that Zone has no intentions to edify others the same way you have of her. In fact she has condemned many others, who are your brothers and sisters in Christ, and treated them with disgust because they adhere to the principles of dispensational truth and do not budge from that position. Do you think she has need of them and you want to edify her when she couldn't care less of those who she continually condemns? That is not preserving the unity of the Spirit nor is it edifying the body in the Spirit of truth or in the love of God. Our love should be according to judgment and knowledge without thinking and speaking evil of others. Is she able to make that claim in your eyes?

 

[BradC]

Ephesians 3
The Mystery of the Gospel Revealed
1For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.


Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

...

no distinction
no mystery gap
no church separate from Israel
no Israel separate from the church
nothing like that.

the Mystery is THE GOSPEL...and that through IT: the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

that was Israel's promise...God told the gentiles would be included all the way back in Genesis.
no gaps; no parenthesis.

Jesus Christ Crucified for jew & gentile...all called through THE GOSPEL, the end.

The end will not come until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in (Rom 11:25) and all of Israel is saved (Rom 11:26), which will take us to the second coming of Christ when he will appear and all shall see him as he is and those who pierced him will repent and mourn. It was not the Gentiles who pierced him who will be mourning, it is the Jews of Israel as those mourning for their only son (Zech 12:10).

psychomom & unclefester - Are you going to stand up for the truth or are you going to get sucked into an empty vacuum without the promises of God for the restoration of the nation, kingdom and people of Israel when Christ comes back with salvation and deliverance for Jacob?

 

[konroh]

While I do believe that God will keep all His promises, the all Israel who will be saved will not be saved in spite of rejecting the Messiah. They will only be saved because they accept their Messiah. No one will be saved without believing.

Paul's prayer was for the Jews to believe. He was also an apostle to the Gentiles. The mystery of Christ in you the hope of glory is my prayer for everyone, Jew, Gentile, Palestinian, German, Syrian, Korean, many tongues, many nations.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

It's a curious thing that Zone has no intentions to edify others the same way you have of her. In fact she has condemned many others, who are your brothers and sisters in Christ, and treated them with disgust because they adhere to the principles of dispensational truth and do not budge from that position. Do you think she has need of them and you want to edify her when she couldn't care less of those who she continually condemns?

That is not preserving the unity of the Spirit nor is it edifying the body in the Spirit of truth or in the love of God. Our love should be according to judgment and knowledge without thinking and speaking evil of others. Is she able to make that claim in your eyes?

zone may have a certain way of dealing with people that I do not necessarily agree with but does that mean that I should do the same in return? She is my sister in Christ - despite our differences.

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

It's okay ProphetExcalibur - I can take your sarcasm. Please explain to me then what you believe the 'mystery that was hidden before the foundation of the world' to be. Thanks.

Thanks peaceful, I just figure someone who likes wise cracking wouldn't mind a little in return!
It looks like your Mystery foundation question is being answered in a pretty civil discussion!
Shucks! I better stay out of it so it don't turn ugly! $#^%*&**+
many blessings

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

there's not even the 40 year gap in there.
all 70 weeks were fulfilled...followed by 40 years of preaching repentance and God's patience....THEN Titus came.
the 40 years and the event of 70AD is written of in that prophecy, but is NOT included in the 70 weeks.

I have to disagree with you on this one Zone though I did believe this once,
at least it's in the right ballpark where it can be discussed.
It's in the same timetable where God expected the Jews of that generation to believe their own Prophet Daniel; concerning the arrival of their Messiah, and many DID!