What's so bad about calvinism?

[DinoDillinger]

I guess you're right.. We can learn something from this possibly....

I mean here is another example of how God's grace is not irresistible..

Mark 10
17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”
18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’”[c]
20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.”
21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Jesus offered this man salvation. In fact He told him exactly what to do. This man rejected Jesus' grace and went away...


I am going to withdraw from this thread on this note.. If you can't accept Scripture then there is no point in arguing with you. However it was nice chatting with you all. Shalom and God bless.

Thank you,

Mark 10:26 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, “Who then can be saved?”
27 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

Here you see, that with men by themselves, salvation is impossible, but not with God, because with God all things are possible.

You see, no one can come to the Son, unless sent by the Father.

You Jesus offered the man salvation, and he rejects it.

When Jesus spoke to the rich man from the gentiles I believe, that man gave up his riches.
Jesus said that the kingdom of God has come to this house today.

Jesus didn't give credit to the man, but to God.

Do you not know that your faith itself is the very gift of God?

 

[Thaddaeus]

Do you not know that your faith itself is the very gift of God?

yeah but it is given to every man equally.

Ro 12:3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

yeah but it is given to every man equally.

Ro 12:3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

"For I say, through the grace [given] unto me, (I) say to every man that is among you, not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to, but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man (among you) the measure of faith."

#3358 - metron. a measure, lit. or fig; by impl. a limited portion (degree): measure.

 

[DinoDillinger]

yeah but it is given to every man equally.

Ro 12:3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

among you, being the church.

 

[1Covenant]

1. DC you're right when you said "The POINT is God's grace does NOT CHANGE. Although His covenants may."
All Covenant's prior to the new covenant were inferior (Hebrews points this out). Hebrews expounds on the old covenants to reveal their truest intentions and realities.
"Dino - They were choosing to keep the law." The law was there but there was also sacrifice that taught them daily that they were incapable of law keeping. They were choosing the promise of forgiveness through sacrifice and a life of righteousness (love of God and neighbor) which we now know in the fullest expression as the entire book of Hebrew points out.

Mahoganysnail is right to say that it is always been about faith, it has always been a heart issue. For the OT people were also told by Moses to therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer...And the LORD your God willcircumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live...and by Jeremiah to circumcise yourselves to the LORD, And take away the foreskins of your hearts. This is also how Elijah can say to King Ahab's house ruler, "go in peace," as the King's house ruler goes off to a foreign god's house with Ahab to worship. The house ruler's heart was right before God as he sought comfort. Look also at the psalmist who exclaims that the intent behind the sacrifices is a humble and contrite heart.

The law was added because of transgressions (not as a means to life), till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator (type and shadow)...the law was our tutor. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

After all, this is why so many Jews believed, it made sense with all that was taught of old. Nowhere does Christ say that game has changed I'm scrapping everything and starting over. Even with Nicodemus, the savior asks, "“Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?"
Only the pharisees did not believe and they represent what most people today think the OT was about, but even Jesus tells the pharisees they are wrong again and again.

2. DC - "Therefore if God's grace was irresistible you wouldn't be able to CHOOSE WHO YOU SERVE."
I know that you and I have already been down this path but for the sake of others, I'm gonna respond. After all its about calvinism.
God's Word says that we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth (the means).
There you have decree and means. If God says that you will be saved and then deems it, that it shall be done through your belief and continual choice (sanctification) - Is God incapable of figuring out how that can be true? It should not be to us, as though it is man's hardest and toughest mathematical equation, and because we can't figure it out, that means somehow that God cannot. Take God at His word in faith.

 

[DinoDillinger]

Should I just copy and paste John 6?

Jesus says that all that the Father sends Him will come to Him.

His sheep know His voice.

He who has an ear, let Him hear.

Who has an ear? His sheep.

I'm not even trying to defend all of calvinism, but people shouldn't be taking credit for their salvation. We aren't any better than a lost man. Anyone who choose to accept Jesus in their heart and was really saved, don't be decieved, it was the Holy Spirit that came on you and convicted you there in your sin. It doesn't happen to many. straight is the path and narrow is the gate that leads to life, and their are FEW who find it. Surely a man in darkness can't see to follow a path. God's grace light it up for us. We are called to demonstrate the Glory of God. Not exalt ourselves in the eyes of men for a choice we made.

The Kingdom of God is at hand.

 

[1Covenant]

Should I just copy and paste John 6?

Dino
I wasn't disagreeing with you completely. I get your point and agree about salvation.
Only on the point about choosing to keep the law, I had a clarification. First, they (Israel) were chosen, and second, any choosing they did was not for legalism, but for love.

The fact that they were first chosen is a refrain that God uses again and again, so that the people do not forget that He has first saved them, "I am the Lord God that brought you out." This first action is a driving factor in other aspects of God's law. Example, "You shall neither mistreat a stranger nor oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt." The point here is love because they have 1st been loved. Show kindness because they have 1st been shown kindness, etc.

 

[DinoDillinger]

Dino
I wasn't disagreeing with you completely. I get your point and agree about salvation.
Only on the point about choosing to keep the law, I had a clarification. First, they (Israel) were chosen, and second, any choosing they did was not for legalism, but for love.

The fact that they were first chosen is a refrain that God uses again and again, so that the people do not forget that He has first saved them, "I am the Lord God that brought you out." This first action is a driving factor in other aspects of God's law. Example, "You shall neither mistreat a stranger nor oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt." The point here is love because they have 1st been loved. Show kindness because they have 1st been shown kindness, etc.

Yea,I got that, I forgot to mention you made some good points.

There is something I think that is important here, where the law is, love is not there. In the old covenant, the Holy Spirit was in the temple. Only the high priest encountered it. Look at the beginning of the Gospel of John, Nicodemas, the pharisee, Jesus spoke about being born again in the spirit. The man who was very knowledgable in the law didn't know what He was talking about.

Christianity has made a new law, the whole 'accept Christ in your heart' thing, and that isn't even found in scripture.

Jesus doesn't want to come into a sinner's wicked heart. He wants to give you a new heart, born seeking God.

The old covenant and being born again is an interesting topic though. When Jesus came He said behold the kingdom of God is at hand. A discussion on people being born again would be interesting in the OT. like who, when, and how. My understanding is that the Holy Spirit converting people was new since Jesus said that.

 

[1Covenant]

Hey Dino
You make some good points as well. But there are varying aspects of law. There is the law of sin that governs our natural bodies and wars with the law of our mind. There is the law of faith, of Moses, the Jews, of husbands, of God, of Christ, of commandments, of a fleshly commandment, etc. Each reference an aspect good or bad about THE law or a law. There is definitely love in the OT, you can't miss it. But concerning the heaviness (legalism) of the Pharisees, I would definitely agree with your statement, but I would also say that that was not the law "of God."

Regarding Nicodemus, my point was simply that the question that Jesus asks is one that implies that Nicodemus aught to know...Sort of like Jesus saying "As a teacher of Israel, how is it that you don't know this?" I also take the rest of the passage to be implying that like all the other pharisees Nicodemus was approaching the scriptures wrong which is why he didn't understand it. Even his introductory statement is clouded in doubt. He confesses Christ as come from God but He doesn't come to Him openly but rather in cover of night. (Sidenote - John's use of imagery should not be overlooked, particularly because he is constantly using it.) The context of this passage is all about addressing Nicodemus and it is bookmarked on both ends by darkness. Nicodemus comes to him in the night (at dark) and God concludes his time with him by implying something of those people that love darkness instead of the light. Of course then Nicodemus has two options remain in darkness of his understanding or be called out of darkness into His marvelous light and start over with the understanding that Christ testifies of heavenly truths and illuminates all else.
Similarly - The rich young ruler had much wealth and his rebirth was marked by God to be through becoming poor.
So now - Nicodemus who came at night has status as a pharisee and his rebirth was marked by God to count it as nothing and confess Christ in the light (who does not condemn).
So at the risk of being repetitious, Nicodemus has confessed Christ as "come from God" but hypocritically comes to Him in the cover of night. Jesus is calling Nicodemus out when He says "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

On the other note:
The Spirit was definitely quantitatively different after Jesus than before but I would not say it was qualitatively different. Present with the people versus poured out through the people in an evangelical nature.
Because in the OT you definitely have the Spirit in action in all sorts of ways and of course there are all of the prophecies of God giving them one heart, and putting a new spirit within them and also of the Spirit's outpouring that the pharisees and others should have been looking for. That would be an interesting thread. I wish I could be on here more often.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Yea,I got that, I forgot to mention you made some good points.

There is something I think that is important here, where the law is, love is not there. In the old covenant, the Holy Spirit was in the temple. Only the high priest encountered it. Look at the beginning of the Gospel of John, Nicodemas, the pharisee, Jesus spoke about being born again in the spirit. The man who was very knowledgable in the law didn't know what He was talking about.

Christianity has made a new law, the whole 'accept Christ in your heart' thing, and that isn't even found in scripture.

Jesus doesn't want to come into a sinner's wicked heart. He wants to give you a new heart, born seeking God.

The old covenant and being born again is an interesting topic though. When Jesus came He said behold the kingdom of God is at hand. A discussion on people being born again would be interesting in the OT. like who, when, and how. My understanding is that the Holy Spirit converting people was new since Jesus said that.

There is no 'born again', you want find that in the orginal Greek John 3:7 "Marvel not that i say unto you, Ye must be born from above (anothen)" anothen in all four gospels has a meaning of 'top to bottom', starting at the top and decending downwards, from on-high, above. You can find this even in the notes of KJV, the word is incorrectly translated 'again', in no way does anothen mean - again, it simply is a wrong translation, 'born-again' doctrine has no Biblical basis whatsoever...

 

[Thaddaeus]

among you, being the church.

those are the ones that were not to think more highly for they had already received. they couldn't had been part of the Church . or used that faith but that every man has the same, if they had been the only one that received that measure of faith then they could have been just in thinking of themselves more Highly for they had been blessed with something that God didn't bless everyone with But paul was reminding them that everyone had that measure of faith so they/ the Chruch was not special.

 

[DinoDillinger]

There is no 'born again', you want find that in the orginal Greek John 3:7 "Marvel not that i say unto you, Ye must be born from above (anothen)" anothen in all four gospels has a meaning of 'top to bottom', starting at the top and decending downwards, from on-high, above. You can find this even in the notes of KJV, the word is incorrectly translated 'again', in no way does anothen mean - again, it simply is a wrong translation, 'born-again' doctrine has no Biblical basis whatsoever...

Thank you for your translation, I don't believe that makes it inaccurate, Jesus is talking about the Holy Spirit giving you life. Born from God, receiving the Holy Spirit. Yes it does have a biblical basis, anyone in Christ is a new creature. through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. those are acouple.
I posted something from ezekiel if you care to look back at it.

I will say that you are correct in a since. Because you aren't born with the Holy Spirit and then then born again with it by receiving the truth. It is the first time that you are born of the Spirit.

 

[DinoDillinger]

those are the ones that were not to think more highly for they had already received. they couldn't had been part of the Church . or used that faith but that every man has the same, if they had been the only one that received that measure of faith then they could have been just in thinking of themselves more Highly for they had been blessed with something that God didn't bless everyone with But paul was reminding them that everyone had that measure of faith so they/ the Chruch was not special.

I see it the opposite way, if I understand what your saying, which I'm not sure I do, then, according to the way the gospel is preached now. those in the church had the same amount of faith of those not in the church, but they 'choose' to act on it. In that logic, why wouldn't they take credit for the faith they choose to act on? I mean according to that, they wanted God but those outside the church didnt? Sounds like something to brag about to me.

Is it easier to look down on a lost man because he willfully chooses to reject a Holy God, or have compassion to someone enslaved to sin, and blinded by their heart?

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Thank you for your translation, I don't believe that makes it inaccurate, Jesus is talking about the Holy Spirit giving you life. Born from God, receiving the Holy Spirit. Yes it does have a biblical basis, anyone in Christ is a new creature. through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. those are acouple.
I posted something from ezekiel if you care to look back at it.

I will say that you are correct in a since. Because you aren't born with the Holy Spirit and then then born again with it by receiving the truth. It is the first time that you are born of the Spirit.

Well I am sure that Jesus using the word anothen knew what He was talking about, if we see the other witnesses and John himself it is always translated top to bottom, 'from above'. Now what does He say later: "And no man hath ascended (of his own self) up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven even the Son of man Which is in heaven." and "Verily, verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born of Hendiadys (noun becomes a superlative and emphatic adjective, determining the meaning and nature of the former noun, showing to be spiritual water, i.e. not water but spirit - 'of water - yea, spiritual water, see, Ezekial 36:26-27)" Then Jesus talks about the 'flesh is flesh, spirit is spirit, and who is talking well God is, just like in Ezekiel, He is saying I will give you a new heart, Iwill put My spirit in you, I will do all this and you will be My people! What is the Pharisee thinking "how can I be born twice?"...Nicodemus simply has no idea what Jesus is talking about and gets it all wrong! Now you are right about regeneration, renewing, there is a new creation, but the creation has come from the top to the bottom, with Jesus at the top and you at the bottom, His spirit is the spiritual water from on high, from above.

You can see how by analysing these correct words instead of accepting crude translations or perhaps even purposeful mistranslation we can get a more accurate view of what He is talking about. If we allow people to say "born again' of water [and] spirit, then we get the whole personal choice, born again, water baptism evangelism and all that falsehood that extends from it. I mean it puts the whole you must be baptzed in actual liquid water by a preacher or minister concept to rest, or that you make a personal descision 'for Christ' say your prayer, get baptized, and instantly 'born again, that's not how it works, and I suspect that you know as much what I am talking about, you can see my point, yes?

 

[DinoDillinger]

Well I am sure that Jesus using the word anothen knew what He was talking about, if we see the other witnesses and John himself it is always translated top to bottom, 'from above'. Now what does He say later: "And no man hath ascended (of his own self) up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven even the Son of man Which is in heaven." and "Verily, verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born of Hendiadys (noun becomes a superlative and emphatic adjective, determining the meaning and nature of the former noun, showing to be spiritual water, i.e. not water but spirit - 'of water - yea, spiritual water, see, Ezekial 36:26-27)" Then Jesus talks about the 'flesh is flesh, spirit is spirit, and who is talking well God is, just like in Ezekiel, He is saying I will give you a new heart, Iwill put My spirit in you, I will do all this and you will be My people! What is the Pharisee thinking "how can I be born twice?"...Nicodemus simply has no idea what Jesus is talking about and gets it all wrong! Now you are right about regeneration, renewing, there is a new creation, but the creation has come from the top to the bottom, with Jesus at the top and you at the bottom, His spirit is the spiritual water from on high, from above.

You can see how by analysing these correct words instead of accepting crude translations or perhaps even purposeful mistranslation we can get a more accurate view of what He is talking about. If we allow people to say "born again' of water [and] spirit, then we get the whole personal choice, born again, water baptism evangelism and all that falsehood that extends from it. I mean it puts the whole you must be baptzed in actual liquid water by a preacher or minister concept to rest, or that you make a personal descision 'for Christ' say your prayer, get baptized, and instantly 'born again, that's not how it works, and I suspect that you know as much what I am talking about, you can see my point, yes?

Yea, I see what your saying. That does give a clearer explanation of it. But as you know people will read out of it what they want to hear. Just try getting someone to explain John 6.

I will keep this in mind, but the actual event can't really be justified with words anyway.

 

[1Covenant]

Nicodemus simply has no idea what Jesus is talking about and gets it all wrong! Now you are right about regeneration, renewing, there is a new creation, but the creation has come from the top to the bottom, with Jesus at the top and you at the bottom, His spirit is the spiritual water from on high, from above.

Good point. If I may...I will add my agreement. You are correct on the translation and the context makes that clear, but you are also right that Nicodemus had no idea what he was saying which is why, despite the right word that Jesus uses, Nicodemus goes right back to natural birth idea.
Throughout John's Gospel the point is made that there is light and there is LIGHT (from above). There is water and there is Living Water, there is birth and there is heavenly birth, and so on.

Its been uplifting to read y'all's dialogue.