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S
Pretty much.
OP should have known you can't talk about the bible in the Singles Forum.
OP should have known you can't talk about the bible in the Singles Forum.
There are scholars in both camps with large quantities of scripture backing up both viewpoints. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle, and it's an interesting theological pissing match as anyone arguing about it is probably, by necessity, already saved, whether that be because they are one of the elect, or they are saved of their own free will (pick your poison).
But yeah, theological grudge matches are frowned upon here.
S
4-point Calvinist here! I don't really see how Arminianism fits in Scripture, but I also don't see any verses that support "Limited Atonement".
Atonement is different than salvation. Atonement is different than justification.
All men were condemned by Adam's sin, and also condemned by their own sin, until Christ atoned for Adam. Now all men are still condemned by their own individual sins.
The whole race was atoned for (unlimited). But all men need individual regeneration and justification to be saved. That's where election and predestination come in.
John 6:35-71. Romans chapter 9.
Atonement is different than salvation. Atonement is different than justification.
All men were condemned by Adam's sin, and also condemned by their own sin, until Christ atoned for Adam. Now all men are still condemned by their own individual sins.
The whole race was atoned for (unlimited). But all men need individual regeneration and justification to be saved. That's where election and predestination come in.
John 6:35-71. Romans chapter 9.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
(footnote: Um, well they don't mean ALL people because you know, God is all powerful, and if He really wanted everyone he would *Poof* make it happen. So really just the Elect.)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone* who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
(Footnote, again, the Bible doesn't literally mean everyone I mean C'mon God is not saying preach the Gospel to all creation or call everyone to repent, cause its just for the Predestined.)
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all of your heart. **
(footnote: Yeah see this doesn't jive with the Gospel according to Calvin either, Cause only people who've already been specifically hand selected from the beginning of time are capable of seeking God, so total depravity trumps Bible stuff, all day.)
And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
(Yeah, this ALL thing is really just a tricky translation Error, I mean the Bible never really means ALL cause that violates the Gospel of TULIP, so doesn't actually exist.)
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
(See, but its the Ungodly that was hand selected by God arbitrarily, that receive salvation.)
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
(Well, he doesn't LITERALLY mean for everyone to repent, just you know the Preselected. Cause frankly no one else is capable of repenting, even though God Commands it. I mean pfft, if God Commands it, we are pretty much powerless to disobey that, cause Sovereign and stuff. So yeah, God isn't really commanding this cause that would violate the TULIP thing, and nothing violates the TULIP thing)
To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ.
(Well, you've got your God I've got mine, so basically....
Cause TULIP and stuff.)
(footnote: Um, well they don't mean ALL people because you know, God is all powerful, and if He really wanted everyone he would *Poof* make it happen. So really just the Elect.)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone* who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
(Footnote, again, the Bible doesn't literally mean everyone I mean C'mon God is not saying preach the Gospel to all creation or call everyone to repent, cause its just for the Predestined.)
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all of your heart. **
(footnote: Yeah see this doesn't jive with the Gospel according to Calvin either, Cause only people who've already been specifically hand selected from the beginning of time are capable of seeking God, so total depravity trumps Bible stuff, all day.)
And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
(Yeah, this ALL thing is really just a tricky translation Error, I mean the Bible never really means ALL cause that violates the Gospel of TULIP, so doesn't actually exist.)
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
(See, but its the Ungodly that was hand selected by God arbitrarily, that receive salvation.)
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
(Well, he doesn't LITERALLY mean for everyone to repent, just you know the Preselected. Cause frankly no one else is capable of repenting, even though God Commands it. I mean pfft, if God Commands it, we are pretty much powerless to disobey that, cause Sovereign and stuff. So yeah, God isn't really commanding this cause that would violate the TULIP thing, and nothing violates the TULIP thing)
To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ.
(Well, you've got your God I've got mine, so basically....
Cause TULIP and stuff.)
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
(footnote: Um, well they don't mean ALL people because you know, God is all powerful, and if He really wanted everyone he would *Poof* make it happen. So really just the Elect.)
All people? Or all people who believe? If he ransoms all people, then what about those who don't believe? Are they also ransomed? If he ransoms those who believe, then that IS the elect right? The elect are those who believe. It's not as if the word "Elect" is not in scripture multiple times in multiple areas. You act like it's a bad word, but it's in the Bible.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone* who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
(Footnote, again, the Bible doesn't literally mean everyone I mean C'mon God is not saying preach the Gospel to all creation or call everyone to repent, cause its just for the Predestined.)
Everyone who believes, again. I don't see where there is disagreement.
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all of your heart. **
(footnote: Yeah see this doesn't jive with the Gospel according to Calvin either, Cause only people who've already been specifically hand selected from the beginning of time are capable of seeking God, so total depravity trumps Bible stuff, all day.)
Who seeks God? Do those who seek him find him? (Obviously, as seen above.) So... believers? (aka the Elect?)
And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
(Yeah, this ALL thing is really just a tricky translation Error, I mean the Bible never really means ALL cause that violates the Gospel of TULIP, so doesn't actually exist.)
If he died for all, then are all saved? If his blood redeemed all, then are they not all his?
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
(See, but its the Ungodly that was hand selected by God arbitrarily, that receive salvation.)
I don't understand how this is relevant.
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
(Well, he doesn't LITERALLY mean for everyone to repent, just you know the Preselected. Cause frankly no one else is capable of repenting, even though God Commands it. I mean pfft, if God Commands it, we are pretty much powerless to disobey that, cause Sovereign and stuff. So yeah, God isn't really commanding this cause that would violate the TULIP thing, and nothing violates the TULIP thing)
Have you read Romans 9? "But why does God still blame us, for who resists his will?" Your objection to this concept is nothing new. Paul spent a lot of time explaining these same concepts to the people of his day who also felt that predestination was "unfair".
So much calvinist bashing. And while I don't like the term "calvinist" - I prefer to stand on scripture for my doctrine - the words "predestined" and "elect" are quite present in scripture. And while some believe that God wouldn't be so "unfair" in the matter of salvation, others can acknowledge that HELL is what is "fair" for all, and salvation is a grace and mercy for some.
Were God's "people" in the Old Testament ALL PEOPLE? Or were they "chosen" by God himself through no act of their own? Was it unfair that he chose the nation of Israel and not the nation of Ishmael for "his people"? Is the Old Testament Israel not a shadow of the New Testament body of Christ? Why wouldn't they resemble one another in how they are chosen?
Blah, I do not want to debate this issue. But I'd like to not see it bashed repeatedly either. *stares at Praus*
(footnote: Um, well they don't mean ALL people because you know, God is all powerful, and if He really wanted everyone he would *Poof* make it happen. So really just the Elect.)
All people? Or all people who believe? If he ransoms all people, then what about those who don't believe? Are they also ransomed? If he ransoms those who believe, then that IS the elect right? The elect are those who believe. It's not as if the word "Elect" is not in scripture multiple times in multiple areas. You act like it's a bad word, but it's in the Bible.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone* who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
(Footnote, again, the Bible doesn't literally mean everyone I mean C'mon God is not saying preach the Gospel to all creation or call everyone to repent, cause its just for the Predestined.)
Everyone who believes, again. I don't see where there is disagreement.
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all of your heart. **
(footnote: Yeah see this doesn't jive with the Gospel according to Calvin either, Cause only people who've already been specifically hand selected from the beginning of time are capable of seeking God, so total depravity trumps Bible stuff, all day.)
Who seeks God? Do those who seek him find him? (Obviously, as seen above.) So... believers? (aka the Elect?)
And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
(Yeah, this ALL thing is really just a tricky translation Error, I mean the Bible never really means ALL cause that violates the Gospel of TULIP, so doesn't actually exist.)
If he died for all, then are all saved? If his blood redeemed all, then are they not all his?
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
(See, but its the Ungodly that was hand selected by God arbitrarily, that receive salvation.)
I don't understand how this is relevant.
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
(Well, he doesn't LITERALLY mean for everyone to repent, just you know the Preselected. Cause frankly no one else is capable of repenting, even though God Commands it. I mean pfft, if God Commands it, we are pretty much powerless to disobey that, cause Sovereign and stuff. So yeah, God isn't really commanding this cause that would violate the TULIP thing, and nothing violates the TULIP thing)
Have you read Romans 9? "But why does God still blame us, for who resists his will?" Your objection to this concept is nothing new. Paul spent a lot of time explaining these same concepts to the people of his day who also felt that predestination was "unfair".
...
So much calvinist bashing. And while I don't like the term "calvinist" - I prefer to stand on scripture for my doctrine - the words "predestined" and "elect" are quite present in scripture. And while some believe that God wouldn't be so "unfair" in the matter of salvation, others can acknowledge that HELL is what is "fair" for all, and salvation is a grace and mercy for some.
Were God's "people" in the Old Testament ALL PEOPLE? Or were they "chosen" by God himself through no act of their own? Was it unfair that he chose the nation of Israel and not the nation of Ishmael for "his people"? Is the Old Testament Israel not a shadow of the New Testament body of Christ? Why wouldn't they resemble one another in how they are chosen?
Blah, I do not want to debate this issue. But I'd like to not see it bashed repeatedly either. *stares at Praus*
You'll make all the other single men jealous of my beard if you stare!
Seriously, I have other projects at this time--Greek, Aramaic, some math stuff, etc. Also there's a new surge of messianics/Hebrew-roots types in the Bible Discussion Chat so I have lots to do.
Here's some music!
[video=youtube;4D3BdWEfV20]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D3BdWEfV20[/video]
Worthy is the,
Lamb who was slain
Holy, Holy, is He
Sing a new song, to Him who sits on
Heaven's Mercy Seat
[Repeat 2x]
(Chorus)
Holy, Holy, Holy
Is the Lord God Almighty
Who was, and is, and is to come
With all creation I sing:
Praise to the King of Kings!
You are my everything,
And I will adore You !
Yeah!
Clothed in rainbows, of living color
Flashes of lightning, rolls of thunder
Blessing and honor, strength and
Glory and power be
To You the Only Wise King,
Yeah
(Chorus)
Holy, Holy, Holy
Is the Lord God Almighty
Who was, and is, and is to come, yeah
With all creation I sing:
Praise to the King of Kings!
You are my everything,
And I - will - adore You!
Yeah!
Filled with wonder,
Awestruck wonder
At the mention of Your Name
Jesus, Your Name is Power
Breath, and Living Water
Such a marvelous mystery
Yeah...
(Chorus)
Holy, Holy, Holy
Is the Lord God Almighty
Who was, and is, and is to come, yeah
With all creation I sing:
Praise to the King of Kings!
You are my everything,
And I - will - adore You!
Holy, Holy, Holy
Is the Lord God Almighty
Who was, and is, and is to come,
With all creation I sing:
Praise to the King of Kings!
You are my everything,
And I - will - adore YOU
(Chorus) (Repeat at a cappella)
Come up lift up His Name
To the King of Kings
We will adore YOU Lord
King of heaven and earth
King Jesus, King Jesus
Aleluya, aleluya, aleluya!
Majesty, awestruck Honor
And Power and Strength and Dominion
To You Lord,
To the King, to King
To the King of Glory
Seriously, I have other projects at this time--Greek, Aramaic, some math stuff, etc. Also there's a new surge of messianics/Hebrew-roots types in the Bible Discussion Chat so I have lots to do.
Here's some music!
[video=youtube;4D3BdWEfV20]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D3BdWEfV20[/video]
Worthy is the,
Lamb who was slain
Holy, Holy, is He
Sing a new song, to Him who sits on
Heaven's Mercy Seat
[Repeat 2x]
(Chorus)
Holy, Holy, Holy
Is the Lord God Almighty
Who was, and is, and is to come
With all creation I sing:
Praise to the King of Kings!
You are my everything,
And I will adore You !
Yeah!
Clothed in rainbows, of living color
Flashes of lightning, rolls of thunder
Blessing and honor, strength and
Glory and power be
To You the Only Wise King,
Yeah
(Chorus)
Holy, Holy, Holy
Is the Lord God Almighty
Who was, and is, and is to come, yeah
With all creation I sing:
Praise to the King of Kings!
You are my everything,
And I - will - adore You!
Yeah!
Filled with wonder,
Awestruck wonder
At the mention of Your Name
Jesus, Your Name is Power
Breath, and Living Water
Such a marvelous mystery
Yeah...
(Chorus)
Holy, Holy, Holy
Is the Lord God Almighty
Who was, and is, and is to come, yeah
With all creation I sing:
Praise to the King of Kings!
You are my everything,
And I - will - adore You!
Holy, Holy, Holy
Is the Lord God Almighty
Who was, and is, and is to come,
With all creation I sing:
Praise to the King of Kings!
You are my everything,
And I - will - adore YOU
(Chorus) (Repeat at a cappella)
Come up lift up His Name
To the King of Kings
We will adore YOU Lord
King of heaven and earth
King Jesus, King Jesus
Aleluya, aleluya, aleluya!
Majesty, awestruck Honor
And Power and Strength and Dominion
To You Lord,
To the King, to King
To the King of Glory
K
I am watching Seinfeld and something Jerry Seinfeld said strangely reminded me of the gospel. I think he says a really good (and unintended) definition of ransom . Only change the word reservation here for ''ransom''.
Ransom (defined by the merriam webster):
- a consideration paid or demanded for the release of someone or something from captivity
Jerry makes a reservation for a midsize car at Worthy Rent-A-Car, but when he arrives, the agent says they have no midsize available at the moment; Jerry asks, “I made a reservation? Do you have my reservation?” and the agent responds, “Yes, we do. Unfortunately, we ran out of cars.” Jerry explains, “But the reservation keeps the car here. That’s why you have the reservations.” When the agent says, “I know why we have the reservations,” Jerry tells her, “I don’t think you do. If you did, I’d have a car. See, you know how to take the reservation. You just don’t know how to hold the reservation. And that’s really the most important part of the reservation, the holding. Anyone can just take them.”
Isn't this how our reaction should be if we said that God ''saved ALL people'' (believers and unbelievers alike) but then God decided to send some of these same people he supposedly saved to hell? God either ''made a reservation'' or not. He either gave himself as a ransom or he didn't . He didn't make a ransom possible. He actively gave himself as a ransom.
I really didn't want to debate here, and maybe I should take this to the Bible Forum, but I thought that Seinfeld quote was very good haha. And I don't know how good Seinfeld would be taken in the Bible Forum..... I would probably be labeled a Seinfeld-ist or something.
Ransom (defined by the merriam webster):
- a consideration paid or demanded for the release of someone or something from captivity
Jerry makes a reservation for a midsize car at Worthy Rent-A-Car, but when he arrives, the agent says they have no midsize available at the moment; Jerry asks, “I made a reservation? Do you have my reservation?” and the agent responds, “Yes, we do. Unfortunately, we ran out of cars.” Jerry explains, “But the reservation keeps the car here. That’s why you have the reservations.” When the agent says, “I know why we have the reservations,” Jerry tells her, “I don’t think you do. If you did, I’d have a car. See, you know how to take the reservation. You just don’t know how to hold the reservation. And that’s really the most important part of the reservation, the holding. Anyone can just take them.”
Isn't this how our reaction should be if we said that God ''saved ALL people'' (believers and unbelievers alike) but then God decided to send some of these same people he supposedly saved to hell? God either ''made a reservation'' or not. He either gave himself as a ransom or he didn't . He didn't make a ransom possible. He actively gave himself as a ransom.
I really didn't want to debate here, and maybe I should take this to the Bible Forum, but I thought that Seinfeld quote was very good haha. And I don't know how good Seinfeld would be taken in the Bible Forum..... I would probably be labeled a Seinfeld-ist or something.
The Gospel of Armenius. For God so loved the World that He saved Everyone.
Behold I stand at the door and knock, to let you know that you are saved.
For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. (And these plans are simply irresistible. oh wait, different Gospel), plans to let you know that you are saved.
Cause you know that whole business of righteousness and repentance that the Bible keeps harping about, that just for the elect, to read about, because the outcome is fixed, and completely beyond their control, because they should just wake up one day and realize that they are saved.
Like when Jesus meets the rich young ruler, He really isn't "Disappointed" that he wouldn't sell everything and give the money to the poor, Cause the Arminians believe he's already saved and the Calvinists believe he's been doomed since the foundations of the Universe.
Narrow is the way and there are few who find it. (Apparently Arminians believe everyone is there, and Calvinists believe the way finds you instead.)
We should like rewrite the Bible to make sure it more accurately reflects the traditions of our church forefathers.
Behold I stand at the door and knock, to let you know that you are saved.
For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. (And these plans are simply irresistible. oh wait, different Gospel), plans to let you know that you are saved.
Cause you know that whole business of righteousness and repentance that the Bible keeps harping about, that just for the elect, to read about, because the outcome is fixed, and completely beyond their control, because they should just wake up one day and realize that they are saved.
Like when Jesus meets the rich young ruler, He really isn't "Disappointed" that he wouldn't sell everything and give the money to the poor, Cause the Arminians believe he's already saved and the Calvinists believe he's been doomed since the foundations of the Universe.
Narrow is the way and there are few who find it. (Apparently Arminians believe everyone is there, and Calvinists believe the way finds you instead.)
We should like rewrite the Bible to make sure it more accurately reflects the traditions of our church forefathers.