Attack of the Judaizers

[Historicist]

That is your personal assumption.

Please provide Scriptures for your basis.

The clean animals in the ark were for the purpose of sacrifice, not for eating.

There is no Biblical basis before Lev for a change in God's command in Ge 9:3,

and the regulations of Lev were temporarily added (Ro 5:20; Gal 4:9), as was the Sinaitic Covenant,

and were removed in the NT (Mk 7:19), taking us back again to God's original command in Ge 9:3.

Elin, Jesus, in Mark 7:19 is not telling us it is now okay to eat donkeys, pigs, chimpanzees, gorillas, snakes, cats, spiders, catfish and dogs, etc. Do you really think Jesus would eat gorilla, or pig? Go back to verse 8 and learn that 7:19, in context, is condemning of ceremonial washings invented by the Pharisses. This is why there is not one example in scripture of Jesus or the Bible writers eating these unclean things.

 

[Elin]

Where does it say Christ fulfilled the Law?

Where does it not?

Did Christ love the brethren?

See Ro 13:8; Gal 5:1.

Was Christ the fullness of God?

See Jn 1:14, 16; Col 1:19, 2:9; Eph 1:23, 3:19, 4:13.

I'll leave the parsing to you.

 

[just-me]

We present to them the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. We go straight to the gospel because we have a record. He was born of a virgin, God made in the likeness of sinful flesh as Emanuel, dwelling among men. The law is not the means needed as a school master to lead to Christ for the Word became flesh and we have the record to believe and follow.

So are you advocating that the schoolmaster be bring the lost to Christ is not necessary anymore because of the new covenant?

 

[chubbena]

That is your personal assumption.

Please provide Scriptures for your basis.

The clean animals in the ark were for the purpose of sacrifice, not for eating.

There is no Biblical basis before Lev for a change in God's command in Ge 9:3,

and the regulations of Lev were temporarily added (Ro 5:20; Gal 4:9), as was the Sinaitic Covenant,

and were removed in the NT (Mk 7:19), taking us back again to God's original command in Ge 9:3.

Example:
I threw a buffet party at home. When guests arrived I said "foods are in the kitchen, eat all you want". A few didn't know better and went for the garbage can because it looked like a nice container. I had to stop them by posting a note there saying "whatever in there are unclean and detestable". Some late comers couldn't read, they went for the garbage can and thus missed out the food on the island. Doesn't really matter to me. At the end they all thanked me.

Noah knew what He meant. You probably need a note.

 

[Elin]

And yet Jesus Christ said...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

The Gospel and the Law are inextricably bound together.

So eternal life is by law keeping, and you set Jesus against the epistles.

Heads up: when your understanding sets the Scriptures against themselves, you misunderstand them.

 

[just-me]

If I went to my teacher who taught me from the old textbook and now there is a new textbook with the complete revelation of what the old was trying to communicate, I would hope that he would show me the new and explain the revelation to me so that I could know and see what the old was unable to reveal to me.

Did you know that Jesus was the teacher of the Old Testament?

Hebrews 9:15-22 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Jeremiah 31:30-33 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This is the Mosaic Law of love. It is no different from what Jesus taught.

Leviticus 19:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Deuteronomy 6:1-6 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

 

[Elin]

You may begin with the Psalms. then look linto the Proverbs. Again, Zechariah. Now look at what Yahweh said to Abraham about his descendants possessing the Gate of their enemies. When finished with these, read the Old testament, Jesus is everywhere there, that is if the veil of Moses is not blinding the reader.

Nowhere there are

the mystery of Christ in you the hope of glory,

the mystery of the two-in-one enfleshment of Christ and his body the Church, his bride,

the mystery of Gentile and Jew together in Christ's body, the Church, his bride.

Nope, none of these mysteries and more are there.

 

[Elin]

The law leads all who believe to the Lamab of Yahweh. Have you never yearned to see an old teaher from a course you really love. Do you not hold dear memories and love for any teacher or professor who took time to insure you learned what you loved so much? If not, you are very different from most avid students. Try thinking about your teachers and professors, and I am certain at least one will stand out as very special, and that in a subject you like.

Yes, the law was our tutor, our teacher, but pointing to Yeshua, we realize we must go on with the knowledge given us by the Law and perfected by Jesus Christ. I feel very bad for anyone who does not possess this realization.

Your analogy is so without the power of the word of God.

 

[chubbena]

For everyone here who preaches to get anything Jewish out of our worship of God, have you thought about that God created that race for our benefit? Through the about 2,000 years since Christ we have killed them for that, we have often made them support our governments, and just read these posts to see how anything Jewish is looked at!

Paul, a devout and practicing Jew, is quoted over and over as supporting this because God told him to not teach the rituals that brought to mind the spiritual truths, but go direct to the truths.

Well, the church got rid of the rituals and the spiritual truths the rituals were to teach. No one is kosher, but they also go to movies with pure filth in them. No one puts up a mezuzah, but they also allow fighting and TV filth in their homes, and don't think of it as a place God is present in. They aren't circumcised physically, but o one thinks of being circumcised spiritually, either. Paul didn't say God commanded you to never do anything to help you make these things part of your everyday life, God said the reminders were nothing, it was doing what the reminders told us of.

Some believe God brought the Israelites out of Egypt to torture and bully them - in the desert and in Canaan. While everyone around them go shopping or to a movie or something during the weekend, they were forced to stay where they were. While others had bacon for breakfast, ham for lunch and pork chop for dinner, they had to settle for lamb rack or tenderloin.
The scripture says otherwise - He gave them a covenant of love. A love many gentile believers wouldn't understand.

 

[Elin]

Classic false premise. The New did not replace the Old, it
was to give us a spiritual understanding of the old.

That's a real setting of the word of God on its head.

The NT exists for the sake of the OT?

How did you get it so backwards?

 

[john832]

Where does it not?

Did Christ love the brethren?

See Ro 13:8; Gal 5:1.

Was Christ the fullness of God?

See Jn 1:14, 16; Col 1:19, 2:9; Eph 1:23, 3:19, 4:13.

I'll leave the parsing to you.

I was kinda hoping you would...

Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For the commandments, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," "YOU SHALL NOT MURDER," "YOU SHALL NOT STEAL," "YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS," "YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

So fulfilling the law in this case means that love is the summation of the Commandments, not the doing away of them.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Fulfillment is not in this verse, you are obliquely references something that was not meant here but since you have, let's read the entire passage instead of lifting it out of context...

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Paul here is referencing physical circumcision and then explaining that physical circumcision does not justify us. I have never said that physical circumcision justifies us, we are justified by His blood, but not saved by it...

Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

WE are saved by His life.

Christ being the fulness of God is not the question but since you referenced it...

Joh 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

Joh 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

No one has seen or heard the Father at any time, but Adam and Eve heard and saw someone...

Gen 3:8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

Abraham heard and saw the LORD, but it was not the Father...

Gen 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.

All Israel heard someone, but it was not the Father...

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

Who was this?

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
1Co 10:2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1Co 10:3 all ate the same spiritual food,
1Co 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

This was Jesus Christ. So, help me out, is He schizophrenic? Does He have a split personality or did He really mean what He said here...

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

Did He do away with His own Law? Did He make a mistake with the Ten Commandments and have to come in the flesh to fix this?

Or is the Law exactly what Paul says...

Rom 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

And do we do away with the Law?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

 

[john832]

Some believe God brought the Israelites out of Egypt to torture and bully them - in the desert and in Canaan. While everyone around them go shopping or to a movie or something during the weekend, they were forced to stay where they were. While others had bacon for breakfast, ham for lunch and pork chop for dinner, they had to settle for lamb rack or tenderloin.
The scripture says otherwise - He gave them a covenant of love. A love many gentile believers wouldn't understand.

Not gentile bellievers...

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Carnal unbelievers is the correct word here.

 

[Elin]

For everyone here who preaches to get anything Jewish out of our worship of God, have you thought about that God created that race for our benefit?

That's a short-sighted view of benefit.

God has created more than one thing to benefit his purpose, when he then destroyed.

 

[Elin]

God's plan was to temporarily add (Ro 5:20; Gal 4:9) the Sinaitic Covenant and the Mosaic law on
which it was based, with its unavoidable and, therefore, inseparable curse (Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10, 13),
to the Abrahmaic Covenant.

God's plan was to make the Sinaitic (Old) Covenant obsolete (Heb 8:13) and
to set aside the Mosaic law with its curse (Heb 7:18-19)
at the inauguration of the New Covenant (Lk 22:20) in the poured-out blood of Christ Jesus.

God's plan was to replace the Mosaic law and its necessary curse with
the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39), which has no curse (a huge difference between the two, Ro 8:1)
and which fulfills (accomplishes) the Mosaic law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:10).

Those in Christ are under Christ's law, which has no curse for imperfect obedience,
and are not under the set-aside Mosaic law with its curse.

The Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ for all those in Christ,
for he is our Sabbath; i.e, our rest from our own work (to save)
as God rested from his own work (to create). (Heb 4:9-10)

However, those in Christ do assemble together (Heb 10:25)
for prayer, worship, fellowship, instruction and participation in the Lord's Supper,
they do obey the law of Christ, which fulfills (accomplishes) the whole law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8),
and they do set themselves apart from sin and to God.

Nothing is lost in the Christian life with setting aside of the Mosaic law with its curse,
and replacing it with the law of Christ which has no curse.

Since it was Christ who spoke the Ten Commandments on Mt. Sinai,

Scriptural basis please, and not the logic of your personal view please.

perhaps you can explain why He decided to say "Oops, my bad. People were put to death for breaking these Laws that I have decided to do away with, but aren't you glad I have rectified my mistake back then? Oh and that "not a jot or tittle thing", fooled ya didn't I?"

Your issue is with the writer of Hebrews and with Paul, not with me.

Take it up with them.

 

[just-me]

That's a real setting of the word of God on its head.

The NT exists for the sake of the OT?

How did you get it so backwards?

There would be nothing new if there wasn't something old to compare it with LOL. Logic.

 

[danschance]

I suppose they term me as a Judaizer because I observe Sabbath and respect and love the 10 Commandments because God wrote them with His own finger. But from the not eating meat aspect - You won't be lost just because you don't eat meat and you don't have to start eating it. You are probably healthier than most of the rest of us meat eaters. The way the animals are treated and the drugs they give them you are much better off. Some people have food allergies so carry on being a vegetarian and loving the Lord.

I want to reiterate something I have said several times on this thread. Just because a person chooses to observe the sabbath, that does not make him/her a Judaizer. A Judaizer is a Christian who believes in the gospel and also seeks to be justified by Jewish law. The gospel of Christ alone is sufficient for salvation. Any time a person employs the gospels and adds anything to it, they are no longer fit for the gospel and are severed from Christ.

Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

 

[Elin]

That's a real setting of the word of God on its head.

The NT exists for the sake of the OT?

How did you get it so backwards?

There would be nothing new if there wasn't something old to compare it with LOL. Logic.

LOL with "logic" totally irrelevant to the point?

 

[just-me]

I want to reiterate something I have said several times on this thread. Just because a person chooses to observe the sabbath, that does not make him/her a Judaizer. A Judaizer is a Christian who believes in the gospel and also seeks to be justified by Jewish law. The gospel of Christ alone is sufficient for salvation. Any time a person employs the gospels and adds anything to it, they are no longer fit for the gospel and are severed from Christ.

Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Well spoken.. The Sabbath is completed, but certainly not done away with by this spiritual concept of scripture

Hebrews 4:7-12 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[john832]

Scriptural basis please, and not the logic of your personal view please.


Your issue is with the writer of Hebrews and with Paul, not with me.

Take it up with them.

Was it I AM who spoke to Moses?

Exo 3:14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

Christ was the Word the one known as I AM.

 

[just-me]

LOL with "logic" totally irrelevant to the point?

I thought you would appreciate that. Look... I have something new! It replaces something old. What is old didn't work any more, so I had to replace it. I would never known what to buy if I didn't have this old thing to compare it with. The old work well for it's purpose, but the product has been made better.