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Sep 26, 2013
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Whatever Happened to Gnosticism? Part Two:
Defining Gnosticism
by David C. Grabbe
Forerunner, December 2006
Related
Beware of Philosophy
Let's Get Real!
False Gospels
Does Paul Condemn Observing God's Holy Days?
Sin Is Spiritual!
Nicolaitanism Today
Keeping the Truth Pure
More...
Series
The Whatever Happened to Gnosticism? series:
Whatever Happened to Gnosticism? Part One: False Knowledge
Whatever Happened to Gnosticism? Part Two: Defining Gnosticism
Whatever Happened to Gnosticism? Part Three: Satan's Three Heresies
Gnosticism is difficult to define because it comes in so many flavors and interpretations. By itself, it is not a separate denomination or religion but a religious philosophy. It is a framework from which to explain the nature of God, creation, good and evil, man, and the purpose of life. Gnostics tended to focus exclusively on the inner life of the spirit, which they clearly differentiated from material life.


Author R.V. Young, in his book Harold Bloom: the Critic as Gnostic, summarizes Gnostic teachings this way:


The Gnostics' teaching places the origin of evil, of pain and suffering, in the conditions of the material creation; salvation involves overcoming ignorance and escaping these external conditions by finding divinity within. . . . The Gnostic finds the beginning of the path to salvation in the realization that the world is a great imposture, a prison of pain and frustration. His escape lies in recovering the intrinsic good within himself, the principle of illumination that he shares with other enlightened spirits. . . . What makes it possible for the self and God to commune so freely is that the self already is of God. (Emphasis ours throughout)


Gnosticism contained only a few core beliefs, but as long as they were adhered to, they could be infused into any number of religions, including Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, and even Islam (the Gnostic form of which is known as Sufism). The Gnostic concepts are typically traced back to the religions of Persia and India (Zoroastrianism and Hinduism), but they have been added to and modified over time, especially as they became entrenched in Greek culture. As Plato's writings are full of Gnostic concepts, he furthered the cause of the Gnostics tremendously.


Today, Jewish mystics practice a religion known as Kabbalah, a Gnostic version of Judaism. Its most famous spokesperson right now is none other than Madonna, but other celebrated practitioners include Demi Moore, Britney Spears, and Mick Jagger. Kabbalah—a Hebrew term that literally means "receiving"—holds that it is the "soul" of the Torah, and that the secrets of life are hidden within its text. It also uses and tries to give the true meaning of the Jewish "Oral Law." Thus, it takes elements of Judaism and arranges them according to secret knowledge about the nature of God, good and evil, and the origin and destiny of man. Its adherents believe that they have found enlightenment, even as they live notoriously debased lives.


Galatian Gnosticism


Paul penned the book of Galatians because church members in Galatia were turning away from the true gospel and had embraced a false one (Galatians 1:6-7). Early on, Paul had to establish his credentials—that the gospel he preached did not have its source in any man, as Gnostic ideas do, but had come directly from Jesus Christ (verses 11-12). The Galatians were returning to the "weak and beggarly elements" (Galatians 4:9), referring to the demonism they had been involved in prior to their conversion (verse 8). The Gentile Galatians were observing certain days, months, seasons, and years that had nothing to do with God's holy days (verse 10), but were part of a system that elevated rites and ceremonies above the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, even while paying lip service to Christianity.


Paul addresses a philosophy that venerated the Torah—and went so far as to teach that one could be justified by works of the law—but also involved astrology and receiving revelations from angels (Galatians 1:8). Because of the belief that the spirit of a person was trying to get back to heaven, worship of angels and astrology was a common tenet of Gnosticism, since angels and the patterns of stars and planets were believed to hold keys to this spiritual journey. Contrary to popular assumption, Paul does not condemn God's law in Galatians but a corrupt system that was severely affecting the church. That Gnostic system happened to include an emphasis on the Old Covenant at the expense of Jesus Christ's life, death, and teachings.


Gnostic Christians borrowed the idea of redemption through Christ, but rather than believing that He redeemed them from sin, they believed that He would redeem them from matter—that is, from the flesh, which they considered to be inherently evil. At the core of Gnosticism is the belief that knowledge, typically secret knowledge—knowledge from angels, from the stars and planets, from the ancients—was the path to holiness and salvation. They believed that the path of redemption was through knowledge, and that the worst evil was ignorance.


Thus, they did not endeavor to overcome sin but ignorance. If they could just become wise enough, they reasoned, sin would not be a problem because they would be more spiritual than physical. Obviously, they overlooked man's incurably sick heart (Jeremiah 17:9), and the struggle that a person must undertake to overcome it. The Gnostics believed that the solution was found in greater understanding, rather than in a Savior and High Priest who justifies and guides us through a process of sanctification. In essence, Gnostics would rather learn than submit.


What is more, the knowledge that the Gnostics sought always originated in something other than God and His Word. We know that knowledge itself is not the problem. In the Bible, knowledge is generally presented as a good thing. God goes so far as to say that Israel is "destroyed for lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4:6). However, the knowledge He means is the knowledge of Himself and of His way of life, not knowledge as an end in itself.


In the New Testament, Paul tells the congregation at Rome that Israel has "a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge" (Romans 10:2). Israelites like to think they are serving God, but the way they go about it is contrary to the instructions that God gave them. Jesus Himself says that eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ (John 17:3), by which He means the experience of an intimate relationship with the Father and the Son, something the Gnostics would never accept. They believed that a spiritual and thus pure God would have nothing to do with what they considered to be entirely evil matter and flesh. They did not care that God called His physical creation "good"—even "very good"—for they still saw it as corrupt, a prison from which to be liberated.


Gnosticism in Colossae


Colossians 2:8-10 gives another general definition of Gnosticism, as well as how to combat it:


Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the [divine nature] bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.


Paul writes of a philosophy like Stoicism, not a specific religion, such as Judaism. This is important to recognize, since in verse 16, Paul mentions the Sabbath and holy days, and it is commonly assumed that Paul condemns their observance. Yet, he does not—he warns against a philosophy that disparaged the feasting and joyous observance of the Sabbath and holy days. This is why Paul tells the Colossians to "let no one judge you" with regard to eating, drinking, or observing the weekly and annual Sabbaths—rather than what is commonly read into Colossians 2:16: "There is no reason to keep the Sabbath or holy days." Christians in Colossae were being pressured by the ascetic society around them, which would have looked down on their feasting.


This is confirmed in the rest of Colossians 2, which deals primarily with asceticism (see especially Colossians 2:21-23). Some branches of Gnosticism adhered to asceticism as a way to free the eternal spirit by living regimented, plain, and insular lives. (Conversely, some Gnostics went to the other extreme—practicing hedonism—believing that what they did with their bodies did not make any difference since only spirit mattered.)


Paul says that this philosophy and its associated doctrines were plausible, but they were not based on solid arguments. He calls them "vain deceit" (KJV) or "empty deceit" (NKJV). They may sound good, depending upon one's inclination, but they endanger church members. The apostle writes that they would be "spoiled" (KJV), which does not necessarily mean being "corrupted," but rather of being "plundered," hence the NKJV's use of "cheated." This empty philosophy would rob or cheat them of their faith, their hope, their understanding of God, their relationship with God, their vision, and the purpose that God is working out. Once introduced, it would begin to steal away all of their true, spiritual riches.


Paul also provides two possible sources of this unsteady philosophy: "the traditions of men" and the "rudiments of the world." Examining the "rudiments of the world" first will help to explain the traditions of men. Other translations call them the "elements of the world," the "basic principles of the world," or "the powers of the world." In using this term, Paul is referring to the demonic powers that make this world, this cosmos, what it is. The source of this philosophy of salvation through special knowledge is Satan and the demons.


This explains why, when we read the histories of various religions and their branches, the same patterns arise time and again. Man does not have it within himself to pass along accurately and dependably ideas that go back to the very beginning. With an incessant drumming, the powers of the world keep prompting men and women in the same vain deceits that directly contradict the truth about God and His purpose for mankind.


Humans certainly play a role in handing down these traditions. Sunday school teachers and theologians perpetuate the Gnostic myths of the immortality of the soul, of eternal consciousness, of progressive revelation, of each person having a spark of goodness within that just needs to be fanned into a flame, and of each soul or spirit existing before in heaven and returning there upon death. Men pass these traditions on to other men, but the powers of the spirit world keep these messengers on their track and blinded to the truth.


A Counter to Gnosticism


The last phrase in Colossians 2:8—"not according to Christ"—is a simple one, but it encapsulates what this is all about. Not a single branch of Gnosticism had the truth about Jesus Christ. That knowledge can be found only in God's Word.


At every turn, it seems, the main object of Gnosticism was to twist the nature of Christ. Some Gnostics believed that Jesus was a man, but that Christ entered into Jesus when He was baptized and left Him right before He died. Other Gnostics believed that Jesus did not really die—because, after all, if He died, then He was not really God. Others believed that He could not have been perfect and sinless because He created matter, which Gnostics believed to be evil. And there were also those who believed that Jesus Christ was a created being—an idea that is still affecting the fringes of the church of God today.


So if we want to counter Gnosticism, we must begin with the truth of Jesus Christ. Paul emphasizes this in verses 9-10: Jesus was the fullness of the divine nature in bodily form, and He is the head, the leader, the sovereign, of every principality and power. Though the Gnostics in their various views always twisted or denied some aspect of the nature and role of Jesus Christ, these truths brought out by the apostle are bedrock beliefs for true Christians.


Also foundational to countering Gnosticism is the truth that Jesus brought. To combat the false knowledge that threatens to plunder our spiritual riches, we must take the Bible as the complete and inspired Word of God, against which we can test any concept, tradition, doctrine, or philosophy, no matter how good it sounds on the surface. Gnostics would not readily accept the Bible as God's inspired revelation, or if they did, they also held that other ancient, secret writings were on par with Scripture, and could be trusted to provide greater insight.


In addition, Gnostics were also avid proponents of "progressive revelation," the belief that God is continuing to reveal His will to mankind, but with the implication that Holy Scripture is not as important as hearing directly from the spirit world. Thus, some today, while not entirely rejecting the Bible, believe that "God" is personally revealing things to them—things which often contradict what He has already given to mankind in the His written Word.


© 2006 Church of the Great God
PO Box 471846
Charlotte, NC 28247-1846
(803) 802-7075
 
Sep 26, 2013
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Whatever Happened to Gnosticism? Part Three:
Satan's Three Heresies
by David C. Grabbe
Forerunner, January 2007
Related
Beware of Philosophy
Does Doctrine Really Matter? (Part 1)
Satan (Part 2)
Snares
In the Grip of Distrust
Christ's Death and the Immortality of the Soul
Do Human Beings Have an Immortal Soul (Genesis 3:4)?
More...
Series
The Whatever Happened to Gnosticism? series:
Whatever Happened to Gnosticism? Part One: False Knowledge
Whatever Happened to Gnosticism? Part Two: Defining Gnosticism
Whatever Happened to Gnosticism? Part Three: Satan's Three Heresies
Scholars who define "Gnosticism" generally agree that Gnostic philosophies had their source in the Zoroastrianism and Hinduism of Persia and India, and that these ideas were brought into the West via Alexander the Great's conquest of Persia. These Eastern thoughts blended with Greek culture, producing a heady mixture that profoundly influenced the Jews of the time and Christians centuries later. However, the ultimate source of this "falsely called knowledge"—as well as the one responsible for perpetuating these anti-God philosophies throughout time—is, of course, Satan the Devil. Gnosticism is one of the many heresies he has used to deceive the whole world (Revelation 12:9). His words to Eve in the Garden of Eden bear a striking resemblance with the core of Gnostic thought and teaching:


Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?" And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'" Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:1-5)


In this first message to mankind, Satan introduces three heresies that he has used repeatedly throughout history. First, in verse 1, he sows seeds of doubt as to whether God can be trusted. Satan's very first words were, "Has God indeed said. . . ?" Spoken or not, this sentiment that God is untrustworthy, and that His Word is suspect, has been a regular feature in mankind's relationship with God ever since.


The Gnostics were no exception—in fact, they are a prime example. In its most basic sense, Gnosticism is knowing, but its knowledge, while sometimes including the Word of God, does not have it as its foundation. Instead, more than what was contained in Scripture, Gnostics valued what they experienced, what elders told them, or what they learned from "angels," astrology, or chemistry (alchemy). Thus, we see elements of Gnosticism in Galatians: a mixture of "lucky days," to which they ascribed spiritual significance (part of their worship prior to conversion) and a belief, brought in by Judaizers or perhaps even an "angel" (Galatians 1:8), that justification could come by works of the law.


Judaism, though it has its roots in the Old Testament, sees God's Word through the lens of Hellenism (Greek thought) and the traditions of Jewish scholars and teachers through the centuries. The Galatian Christians gave God's Word lip service, but did not depend on it as the source of their beliefs and practices. If they had, they would not have returned to pagan "days, months, seasons, and years," nor believed that justification could ever result from good works—a concept that is read into the Old Testament, but not actually found there.


Similarly, the Colossian Christians were affected by an ascetic form of Gnosticism that included "ordinances" (KJV) or "regulations" (NKJV) that are not found in God's Word but were the commandments and doctrines of men (Colossians 2:20-23), as well as demons, the "basic principles of the world" (Colossians 2:8).


Modern Distrust of God


This same distrust of God's Word is readily seen in today's Catholicism and Protestantism. The Catholic Church holds that Scripture is only one of three sources from which its dogma is derived—the other two being divine revelation and the writings and traditions of previous Catholic saints. The Bible, while generally utilized as the source of doctrine, can be easily overridden by the words of a Pope or other theologian, living or dead. Once again, human words and traditions are considered more trustworthy than God's.


In some respects, Protestantism has a higher regard for Scripture. However, it, too, accepts the traditions of men in such beliefs as the Trinity, the immortality of the soul, going to heaven, observing Christmas and Easter, and venerating the first day of the week (which the Catholic Church rightly points out makes sense only if one accepts Rome's authority, for there is no scriptural authority for keeping any day holy but the Sabbaths).


Modern Gnostics who believe in "progressive revelation" have also succumbed to this first of Satan's ploys. While God does reveal things to us, the critical point is that what is revealed—if it truly comes from Him—will never contradict what He has already revealed in His Word. "God is not a man, that He should lie" (Numbers 23:19). Yet progressive revelation advocates believe that their revelations are more authoritative than the Bible, rather than complementing and harmonizing with it, making them ripe for satanic influence under the guise of God revealing something new to them. They may sincerely believe that God speaks to them, yet they simultaneously mistrust what He has already said in inspired Scripture. They tend to shy away from Bible study, concluding that they do not need it since God speaks directly to them, and if there is anything important, God will let them know.


Romans 10:17 tells us that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." But Satan knows this too and believes that, if he can undermine the trustworthiness of God and the validity of His Word, he can destroy the faith necessary for salvation. Currently, the Bible's legitimacy is undergoing an intense assault. Due to popular Gnostic writings like the Gospel of Judas and the Gospel of Thomas, as well as The Da Vinci Code book and movie, many people are questioning why we have the Bible that we do and wondering if something in the ancient apocryphal writings, if it were known, would change Christianity as we know it. Rather than quibbling about this or that point of doctrine, Satan seems to be gunning for the whole package by asserting that the Word of God is subject to the whims of men and thus cannot be trusted. At every turn, faith founded in God's Word is being undermined.


The Second Heresy


Satan's next heresy is found in Genesis 3:4: "You shall not surely die." When expanded, this one claims that we are already immortal, so death has no real hold over us. This idea, proposed at the very beginning, has thrived throughout history. Mainstream Christianity calls it the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, while various Eastern religions contain it in beliefs such as reincarnation. Whatever its moniker, the belief that human beings possess a spiritual, eternally conscious, imperishable component is a major tenet of nearly every religion throughout man's history. In our modern culture, books and movies abound with examples of the spirits of the dead hovering around the living characters, giving them comfort, aid, and encouragement. It is taken as given that death is not the end; somehow, one's conscious spirit will live on when the physical body perishes.


The Gnostic belief in the dualism of flesh and spirit—with the flesh being evil and something to be freed from, while the eternal spirit was good—also originated in the lie Satan told Eve. Gnostics, in general, believed that the purpose of human existence was to return to the spiritual realm from whence all originated. Death, then, was seen as liberation of the spirit.


First, consider how this belief affects a person's attitude and way of life. When Satan undermined the death penalty for disobedience, in addition to sowing further distrust in what God says, he also blunted one of the keenest elements of human motivation, continued self-preservation. If life beyond the grave is assured, how this life is lived makes little difference. It is like guaranteeing a college freshman that he will receive a doctorate degree, regardless of whether anything is learned, any work is done, any classes are attended, or any tuition is paid. While the student may indeed expend some effort, the motivation to apply himself wholeheartedly to his education will be substantially weakened. It would be so easy to slack off and postpone catching up to some time next week. After all, if the goal is certain, why worry about the details in the meantime?


Spiritually, the result is the same. If one already has immortality, and is eternally saved, there is no pressing reason to resist the pulls of carnality. Resisting Satan matters little. Devoting one's life to growing and overcoming has no urgency. Sin is no big deal. Why should one study to come to know God and His truth? Believing that one already possesses eternal life removes the urgency to live according to the desires and requirements of the Creator. At best, all that remains is the vague guidance of "just be a good person."


The Bible teaches that there can be life after death through the resurrection from the dead. Eternal life is ours only if God supplies it, and not because we possess an immortal soul:


» God tells us, "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4; emphasis ours throughout). God repeats this in Ezekiel 18:20. Clearly, it is possible for a "soul" to die.


» Paul instructs in Romans 6:23 that "the wages of sin is death," not eternal life—not even eternal life in ever-burning hell. As with Ezekiel 18, sin incurs the death penalty. Satan, though, would have us believe that since death is not a real threat, sin is no big deal. It is only because of God's grace that we are not struck down immediately—not because of any inherent immortality within us—as the rest of Romans 6:23 explains: "but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Eternal life is a gift, not an inborn quality.


» I Timothy 6:16 says that God "alone has immortality"—not any member of the human race, Christians included!


» Romans 2:7 promises "eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality," again proving that eternal life is a gift, not a right, and that immortality must be sought (by "doing good") rather than assumed to have it already.


» Finally, in the "Resurrection Chapter," I Corinthians 15, Paul explains when Christians receive immortality:


Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." (I Corinthians 15:50-54)


It is not until "the last trumpet," when Jesus Christ returns, that the dead will be resurrected and given immortality (I Thessalonians 4:16). At this time, the saints will be changed and given new spiritual bodies (I Corinthians 15:49; I John 3:2). Clearly, immortality is not given until the resurrection from the dead, which does not take place until Jesus Christ returns.


That God must resurrect a person for him to continue living means that He retains sovereignty. He is not obliged to grant eternal life to anyone who demonstrates, once he has the opportunity to know God, that he is not willing to be subject to His way of life. However, by belittling the truth about the resurrection from the dead, and telling people that they already have immortality, Satan can distract them from a basic reason why they need to listen to God—so that they may be resurrected and continue living!


The Third Lie


The third prong in the Devil's ongoing assault on God's instructions is found in Genesis 3:5: that by taking of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, human eyes would be opened—implying wisdom and enlightenment—to allow a person to know good and evil as God does. Immediately, Satan places the emphasis on knowing, but it is contrasted with living eternally. Satan proposes that mankind should be like God in taking to himself the knowledge—the definition—of what is right and wrong, asserting that this is a good thing! In contrast, the Tree of Life represents a way of living in which the meaning of good and evil already exists, and eternal life involves submitting through the Holy Spirit to that definition and the Sovereign who is its source.


Likewise, the Gnostics are those who know—who pursue mystical knowledge that they believe holds the key to eternal life through advancing beyond the physical and into the spiritual realm. Recall that the Gospel of Thomas states at the very beginning that "whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death." Gnostics believed the key to eternal life was contained in right interpretation—knowledge—of those esoteric sayings.


The book of Revelation expounds on the Tree of Life in two places:


· To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God. (Revelation 2:7)


· Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into [New Jerusalem]. (Revelation 22:14)


The Tree of Life, then, is associated with a way of life—one that requires overcoming (growth against a standard of righteousness) and keeping (doing) God's commandments. The only ones who are allowed to partake of the Tree of Life are those have changed themselves (with God's help, by His Spirit) to begin living in the same manner as He does. To those who submit to His standard of righteousness, then, He grants life that is both endless and of the same quality that He enjoys.


Satan, though, in addition to casting doubt on what God plainly says, and implying that God is unfair by withholding good things, offers a shortcut. He says, "You do not need to follow God's way, for it is obviously unfair and far too stringent. You can follow your own way. You can take knowledge to yourself of what is good and what is evil. You can be just like God in determining what is right and wrong." Adam and Eve took the bait, and ever since, man has rejected God's standard of righteousness in favor of his own.


This third heresy is easily seen in the antinomianism (literally, "against law") of the Gnostics, who may not have been against every law, but were certainly against any law—any standard of conduct or requirement of righteousness—that impinged upon their standard of conduct. Thus the ascetic Gnostics who grieved the Christians in Colossae held to manmade regulations of "do not touch, do not taste, do not handle" (Colossians 2:20-21), while rejecting the command to "rejoice" with food and drink during the God-ordained festivals. Similarly, mainstream Christianity will (rightly) use portions of Leviticus and Deuteronomy to point out God's abhorrence of abortion and homosexuality, but will claim that the same law is "done away" when it comes to the Sabbath and holy days. They have taken to themselves the knowledge of what is good and what is evil, establishing their own standard of righteousness.


A core issue of the Bible is whether we submit to God's governance or try to form a government based on our own perception of what is good or what works. God's way results in eternal life, but it comes with the obligation to submit oneself to God. It requires keeping all of His commandments and overcoming our human weaknesses that do not rise to that standard. Satan, conversely, seeks to persuade us to do our own thing and to usurp God's prerogative in defining right living. He encourages us to be enlightened, to have our eyes opened, by doubting God and rejecting His way.


The Highest Virtue?


These three heresies, each subtly undercutting God's truth and plan for mankind, have been recycled since Creation, effectively continuing the separation from God begun in the Garden of Eden. Certainly, Gnosticism incorporates these foundational falsehoods, but they also exist in every anti-God system of belief, organized or not.


An area where the wrong approach to knowledge becomes apparent is in love toward God and toward fellow man, and especially toward our brethren and families. The Gnostics tended to disdain those who were not as "enlightened" as they were. Knowledge and understanding were their currency, and they assigned value to people based on what they knew, a practice completely contrary to God's way of outgoing concern.


In writing against Gnosticism, the apostle John, both in his epistles and his gospel, emphasizes God's love toward us and our obligation to love the brethren. Similarly, Paul writes, "Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies" (I Corinthians 8:1), and that even if he understood all mysteries and all knowledge, but did not have love, he would be nothing (I Corinthians 13:2). He also warns Timothy about self-centered people who are "always learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (II Timothy 3:7).


To the Gnostics, knowledge was the highest virtue, since they considered it the path to spirituality. They sought the "divine" inside themselves through self-knowledge; they were caught up in an all-important search for the self. They did not need Jesus Christ as Savior, Redeemer, or High Priest, but only as a spiritual Messenger who would instruct and enlighten. This approach or philosophy cannot but make a person self-centered, and selfishness lives at the root of all strife within relationships.


For Christians, right knowledge is extremely important, but that right knowledge will never contradict faith, hope, and especially love. Ultimately, knowledge will come to nothing (I Corinthians 13:8), but faith, hope, and love will remain (verse 13).


© 2007 Church of the Great God
PO Box 471846
Charlotte, NC 28247-1846
(803) 802-7075
 
Sep 3, 2012
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Do you suspect us to read all that?? kudos to the 1 who does lol
 
Feb 17, 2010
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they are one with God but they are not God like simiel clame's. and how do you know VERY few people have it you can't you can't see whats on a persons heart only God can
This is how I know... 1 John 4.... Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
And then there is the GIFT of discerning spirits.... And what the heart is full of the mouth runneth over... Like yours, it seems you do not know what God can give to people that WANTS TO KNOW HIM...

There are MANY things that God gives us to make A RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT.... If I try the Spirits what is the MEASURE I should use? If I way your Truth what is the MEASURE I should use? If I weigh you WHAT is the MEASURE I use? If I weigh myself what is the MEASURE I should use? If I judge with a righteous judgment, WHO DOES THE JUDGING? Me or Godand His Truth?

Wonderer6059, can you judge RIGHTEOUSLY? What do a person need to judge with a righteous judgement? The TRUTH! God's Word is the Truth. EVERYTHING you say I will MEASURE WITH THE WORD OF GOD, and JUDGE IT TO FIT OR NOT!!!!That is how I know how you believe. Is it from God or SATAN? That is how I know it is Christ and the anti-christ.
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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2 Thessalonians 2

9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Stand Firm

13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits[b] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[c] we passed on to you,whether by word of mouth or by letter.
16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.

[h=1]1 John 2:18-23[/h]
Warnings Against Denying the Son

18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[a] 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


read those carefully and look at your past post


Revelation 13


The Beast out of the Sea

13 The dragon[a] stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.[b]
9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.
10 “If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed[c] with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”[d]

This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.
The Beast out of the Earth

11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[e] That number is 666.

i'm not saying anything but just think a bit
 
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Arwen4CJ

Guest
I just went through the entire thread and studied Simiel's posts. I was going to make a post quoting all of them, and give a reason for why I find each post slightly disturbing, but I decided the post would be way too long, and there is no point in doing that.

Allow me to make a few observations, though.

If this thread shows anything, it is the depth of deception that some in the church can be under, as well as the complete lack of discernment in some parts of the church today. :( These two things are much more disturbing than the thread itself. Given the deception and lack of discernment displayed in this thread, it suggests that some churches might have mentally ill or demon possessed individuals, and the members in the church wouldn't be able to tell them apart from true Spirit filled Christians. If anything, this should be a wake-up call.

First of all, Simiel began this thread stating that he heard multiple voices, and that these voices argued against each other. This seemed to be a real mental illness or demon possession manifesting. His responses were often sarcastic, indirect, or somehow not quite right.

Then he started giving respones that lined up with what is taught in hyper-charismatic and occult circles. Finally, he turned this thread into a thread about how everyone was attacking him, and how people didn't believe in the spiritual gifts because we questioned the source of his voices. He actually questioned the salvation of those who suggested he had a mental illness or he was possed by a demon. This seems to be a very devisive direction the thread is heading.

We are clearly dealing with someone who is either demon possessed or mentally ill, or a combination of both. Due to the fruit of this thread, I tend to think that there is at least some demonic influence here.

If anyone wants to know what concerns me so much about his posts, you can PM me, and I will give a detailed explanation.

I'm not trying to attack him as a person, but I think there are some real issues going on here, and I really think he needs to talk to a pastor or Christian counselor, if he really does hear voices in his head and is concerned about them.

The only reason I'm even making this post is because of the direction that I see this thread taking. People are questioning whether others in the thread have the Holy Spirit because they don't agree with everything that Simiel has said. I suggest that everyone takes the time to read through this thread again, especially Simiel's posts, and see what he said and what he was replying to.

No one here is attacking the idea that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today. We are questioning things that Simiel has said about the voices in his head, and other things that he has said.
 
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I just went through the entire thread and studied Simiel's posts. I was going to make a post quoting all of them, and give a reason for why I find each post slightly disturbing, but I decided the post would be way too long, and there is no point in doing that.

Allow me to make a few observations, though.

If this thread shows anything, it is the depth of deception that some in the church can be under, as well as the complete lack of discernment in some parts of the church today. :( These two things are much more disturbing than the thread itself. Given the deception and lack of discernment displayed in this thread, it suggests that some churches might have mentally ill or demon possessed individuals, and the members in the church wouldn't be able to tell them apart from true Spirit filled Christians. If anything, this should be a wake-up call.

First of all, Simiel began this thread stating that he heard multiple voices, and that these voices argued against each other. This seemed to be a real mental illness or demon possession manifesting. His responses were often sarcastic, indirect, or somehow not quite right.

Then he started giving respones that lined up with what is taught in hyper-charismatic and occult circles. Finally, he turned this thread into a thread about how everyone was attacking him, and how people didn't believe in the spiritual gifts because we questioned the source of his voices. He actually questioned the salvation of those who suggested he had a mental illness or he was possed by a demon. This seems to be a very devisive direction the thread is heading.

We are clearly dealing with someone who is either demon possessed or mentally ill, or a combination of both. Due to the fruit of this thread, I tend to think that there is at least some demonic influence here.

If anyone wants to know what concerns me so much about his posts, you can PM me, and I will give a detailed explanation.

I'm not trying to attack him as a person, but I think there are some real issues going on here, and I really think he needs to talk to a pastor or Christian counselor, if he really does hear voices in his head and is concerned about them.

The only reason I'm even making this post is because of the direction that I see this thread taking. People are questioning whether others in the thread have the Holy Spirit because they don't agree with everything that Simiel has said. I suggest that everyone takes the time to read through this thread again, especially Simiel's posts, and see what he said and what he was replying to.

No one here is attacking the idea that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today. We are questioning things that Simiel has said about the voices in his head, and other things that he has said.
Good post your so awesome.. When Jesus was lead by the spirit to be tempted by the devil. Do you believe he was there actually talkin to him person to person or a voice trying to twist Gods word?
 
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Arwen4CJ

Guest
Good post your so awesome.. When Jesus was lead by the spirit to be tempted by the devil. Do you believe he was there actually talkin to him person to person or a voice trying to twist Gods word?
I think that the devil is real, and I think that Satan was actually there talking to Jesus, outside of Jesus' head. I think the conversation was face to face.

In other words, I do not believe that Jesus' temptation was an internal conversation. I say this based on the context of the passages.
 
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I think that the devil is real, and I think that Satan was actually there talking to Jesus, outside of Jesus' head. I think the conversation was face to face.

In other words, I do not believe that Jesus' temptation was an internal temptation. I say this based on the context of the passages.
Please share why you believe so?

Jesus said my sheep hear my voice. Hmm that's 1 voice we are suppose to hear... Also a strangers voice and they will not follow. Hmmmm that's 2 voices...
 
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Arwen4CJ

Guest
Please share why you believe so?

Jesus said my sheep hear my voice. Hmm that's 1 voice we are suppose to hear... Also a strangers voice and they will not follow. Hmmmm that's 2 voices...
Sure thing.

Let's look at the passages:
-- Matthew 4:1-11 (NASB)
4 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He [SUP][a][/SUP]then became hungry. [SUP]3[/SUP]And the tempter came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’”

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the devil *took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and *said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written,

‘He will command His angels concerning You’;

and

‘On their hands they will bear You up,
So that You will not strike Your foot against a stone.’”

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “[SUP][b][/SUP]On the other hand, it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Again, the devil *took Him to a very high mountain and *showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; [SUP]9 [/SUP]and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and [SUP][c][/SUP]worship me.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus *said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and [SUP][d][/SUP]serve Him only.’”[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then the devil *left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.


I put in bold the parts that I think are important to show that I believe the temptation was outside of Jesus.
1.) The tempter actually came to Jesus. The text doesn't read, "The devil tempted Jesus within His head."
2.) Satan took Jesus into the city and had Jesus stand on the pinnacle of the temple. Now, this had to have been an actual event -- otherwise it wouldn't have been a true temptation. It was not something that occurred just within Jesus' head, and it wasn't that the devil possessed Jesus and made him do that. The idea that Jesus could be possessed by Satan and made to be crazy is blasphemous.
3.) Same thing with taking Jesus on top of the high mountain.
4.) Then Satan left Jesus -- this seems to be a physical thing. It wasn't just that the voice stopped tempting Jesus, or got outside of Jesus' head.

Mark 1:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Immediately the Spirit *impelled Him to go out into the wilderness. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And He was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by Satan; and He was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to Him.


That doesn't give us a whole lot of information. But it does say that Jesus was tempted by Satan. It doesn't say that He was tempted by a voice in his head.

Luke 4:1-13 (NASB)
4 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around [SUP][a][/SUP]by the Spirit in the wilderness [SUP]2 [/SUP]for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And He ate nothing during those days, and when they had ended, He became hungry. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’”

[SUP]5[/SUP]And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of [SUP][b][/SUP]the world in a moment of time. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and [SUP][c][/SUP]its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore if You [SUP][d][/SUP]worship before me, it shall all be Yours.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’”

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he led Him to Jerusalem and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for it is written,

‘He will command His angels concerning You to guard You,’

[SUP]11 [/SUP]and,

‘On their hands they will bear You up,
So that You will not strike Your foot against a stone.’”

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said to him, “It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]When the devil had finished every temptation, he left Him until an opportune time.

This is pretty much the same thing that is written in Matthew, although some of the things were written in a different order. The devil isn't just a voice in Jesus' head, though, because Satan says things like, "I will give you..." This implies that it is a spirit being who is not just some kind of thing in Jesus' head.

As far as your reference to Jesus' quote in John, let's look at that passage and see what it says in context.

John 10:1-18 (NASB)

10 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. [SUP]3 [/SUP]To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. [SUP]4 [/SUP]When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. [SUP]5 [/SUP]A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” [SUP]6[/SUP]This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and [SUP][a][/SUP]have it abundantly.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. [SUP]12 [/SUP]He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. [SUP]13 [/SUP]He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, [SUP]15 [/SUP]even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. [SUP]18 [/SUP]No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

From the context we can see that Jesus isn't talking about literally hearing voices. Rather it is a figure of speech. The text itself even says this. He was comparing sheep and people. He was saying that sheep know their shepherd's voice. They follow their shepherd. He's also saying that Satan always has bad intentions for those who follow after him, those that he can lead astray.

Jesus is not saying we are to hear different voices in our head and listen to the voices that we believe are of him, and that we will have other voices arguing with the voice we think is his.

An actual application of this passage might be if there is a preacher who becomes very popular. This pastor says things contrary to Scripture, yet says things that make people feel good about themselves. Those who follow after this preacher are going to be deceived because they are listening to "another voice." They are listening to things that are contrary to Scripture.
 
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Sure thing.

Let's look at the passages:
-- Matthew 4:1-11 (NASB)
4 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He [SUP][a][/SUP]then became hungry. [SUP]3[/SUP]And the tempter came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’”

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the devil *took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and *said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written,

‘He will command His angels concerning You’;

and

‘On their hands they will bear You up,
So that You will not strike Your foot against a stone.’”

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “[SUP][b][/SUP]On the other hand, it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Again, the devil *took Him to a very high mountain and *showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; [SUP]9 [/SUP]and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and [SUP][c][/SUP]worship me.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus *said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and [SUP][d][/SUP]serve Him only.’”[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then the devil *left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.


I put in bold the parts that I think are important to show that I believe the temptation was outside of Jesus.
1.) The tempter actually came to Jesus. The text doesn't read, "The devil tempted Jesus within His head."
2.) Satan took Jesus into the city and had Jesus stand on the pinnacle of the temple. Now, this had to have been an actual event -- otherwise it wouldn't have been a true temptation. It was not something that occurred just within Jesus' head, and it wasn't that the devil possessed Jesus and made him do that. The idea that Jesus could be possessed by Satan and made to be crazy is blasphemous.
3.) Same thing with taking Jesus on top of the high mountain.
4.) Then Satan left Jesus -- this seems to be a physical thing. It wasn't just that the voice stopped tempting Jesus, or got outside of Jesus' head.

Mark 1:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Immediately the Spirit *impelled Him to go out into the wilderness. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And He was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by Satan; and He was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to Him.


That doesn't give us a whole lot of information. But it does say that Jesus was tempted by Satan. It doesn't say that He was tempted by a voice in his head.

Luke 4:1-13 (NASB)
4 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around [SUP][a][/SUP]by the Spirit in the wilderness [SUP]2 [/SUP]for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And He ate nothing during those days, and when they had ended, He became hungry. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’”

[SUP]5[/SUP]And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of [SUP][b][/SUP]the world in a moment of time. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and [SUP][c][/SUP]its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore if You [SUP][d][/SUP]worship before me, it shall all be Yours.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’”

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he led Him to Jerusalem and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for it is written,

‘He will command His angels concerning You to guard You,’

[SUP]11 [/SUP]and,

‘On their hands they will bear You up,
So that You will not strike Your foot against a stone.’”

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said to him, “It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]When the devil had finished every temptation, he left Him until an opportune time.

This is pretty much the same thing that is written in Matthew, although some of the things were written in a different order. The devil isn't just a voice in Jesus' head, though, because Satan says things like, "I will give you..." This implies that it is a spirit being who is not just some kind of thing in Jesus' head.

As far as your reference to Jesus' quote in John, let's look at that passage and see what it says in context.

John 10:1-18 (NASB)

10 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. [SUP]3 [/SUP]To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. [SUP]4 [/SUP]When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. [SUP]5 [/SUP]A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” [SUP]6[/SUP]This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and [SUP][a][/SUP]have it abundantly.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. [SUP]12 [/SUP]He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. [SUP]13 [/SUP]He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, [SUP]15 [/SUP]even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. [SUP]18 [/SUP]No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

From the context we can see that Jesus isn't talking about literally hearing voices. Rather it is a figure of speech. The text itself even says this. He was comparing sheep and people. He was saying that sheep know their shepherd's voice. They follow their shepherd. He's also saying that Satan always has bad intentions for those who follow after him, those that he can lead astray.

Jesus is not saying we are to hear different voices in our head and listen to the voices that we believe are of him, and that we will have other voices arguing with the voice we think is his.

An actual application of this passage might be if there is a preacher who becomes very popular. This pastor says things contrary to Scripture, yet says things that make people feel good about themselves. Those who follow after this preacher are going to be deceived because they are listening to "another voice." They are listening to things that are contrary to Scripture.
So when the spirit "lead" Jesus to be tempted .. Was that the same as the devil "took" him to a high mountain place..
 
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Arwen4CJ

Guest
So when the spirit "lead" Jesus to be tempted .. Was that the same as the devil "took" him to a high mountain place..
No.

I see what you are trying to do with this here.

If I claim that the Holy Spirit was inside of Jesus, then you're going to claim that so was Satan.
If I suggest that Satan was outside of Jesus, you'll say that I should interpret the Holy Spirit as being outside of Jesus, too.

However, what I claim as that the Holy Spirit was inside of Jesus, but Satan was not. Why?

Well, for one, if Satan were inside Jesus, and "took Him to the temple," then that would be possession. Jesus could not be possessed. The "took Him into the city and put him on the temple" is not the same thing as the Holy Spirit "leading Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted."

Also, if you suggest that Jesus was possessed by Satan, which would be blasphemous, I'd still tell you that it has to be different from the Holy Spirit leading. Why? Because the Holy Spirit doesn't possess people, and He doesn't make people do anything.
 
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No.

I see what you are trying to do with this here.

If I claim that the Holy Spirit was inside of Jesus, then you're going to claim that so was Satan.
If I suggest that Satan was outside of Jesus, you'll say that I should interpret the Holy Spirit as being outside of Jesus, too.

However, what I claim as that the Holy Spirit was inside of Jesus, but Satan was not. Why?

Well, for one, if Satan were inside Jesus, and "took Him to the temple," then that would be possession. Jesus could not be possessed. The "took Him into the city and put him on the temple" is not the same thing as the Holy Spirit "leading Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted."

Also, if you suggest that Jesus was possessed by Satan, which would be blasphemous, I'd still tell you that it has to be different from the Holy Spirit leading. Why? Because the Holy Spirit doesn't possess people, and He doesn't make people do anything.
Was Peter possesed when Jesus said get behind me satan? Was satan there?
 
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Arwen4CJ

Guest
Was Peter possesed when Jesus said get behind me satan? Was satan there?
Peter was not possessed by Satan. Peter was saying something that Satan would say -- or through Peter's words, Jesus was tempted.

Or maybe Peter spoke out loud a thought that popped into his head that originated with Satan.
 
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Hizikyah

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Aug 25, 2013
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satan is a word NOT a name, satan means adversary, Kepha was saying something against what Messiah needed to do, thus, get behind me adversary.
 
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Peter was not possessed by Satan. Peter was saying something that Satan would say -- or through Peter's words, Jesus was tempted.

Or maybe Peter spoke out loud a thought that popped into his head that originated with Satan.
Good response. Peter mind was carnal of humans wisdom which is from satan.

Could not the same happen to Jesus? He came down as a man not God. For we know God can't be tempted.
 
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Arwen4CJ

Guest
Good response. Peter mind was carnal of humans wisdom which is from satan.

Could not the same happen to Jesus? He came down as a man not God. For we know God can't be tempted.
So you deny Jesus' deity?

Jesus was fully human and fully God. In the incarnation, Jesus could be tempted, but He was not tainted by original sin. Jesus did not have a sinful nature.

Jesus' mind couldn't be carnal, and He did not have "wisdom from Satan."

Where are you getting your theology from? Bill Johnson?
 
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So you deny Jesus' deity?

Jesus was fully human and fully God. In the incarnation, Jesus could be tempted, but He was not tainted by original sin.

Jesus' mind couldn't be carnal, and He did not have "wisdom from Satan."
Define deity
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
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quit falling for the troll arwen...