People say I'm crazy
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A
Okay, thank you for answering the questions I asked. While I would agree with some of what you said, I can't help but still think that you take a different twist on things. It seems your understanding is more of a gospel of human potential/humanistic thing than it is the biblical gospel.
Some of what you've said here sounds close to the biblical gospel, but, given your posts in this thread, I think what you mean by some of these statements is different. I could be wrong, but it certainly seems that you are really big into the human potential idea.
At the very least, you have denied Jesus' deity, saying that he was just a man who was empowered by the Holy Spirit, and that we are to perform signs and wonders as the Holy Spirit empowers us. This brings Jesus down to our level, and us up to Jesus' level.
Some of what you've said here sounds close to the biblical gospel, but, given your posts in this thread, I think what you mean by some of these statements is different. I could be wrong, but it certainly seems that you are really big into the human potential idea.
At the very least, you have denied Jesus' deity, saying that he was just a man who was empowered by the Holy Spirit, and that we are to perform signs and wonders as the Holy Spirit empowers us. This brings Jesus down to our level, and us up to Jesus' level.
A
We are adopted into God's family, and we are co-heirs with Christ, yes.
At the same time, this doesn't mean that we are on the level of Jesus -- that we have become little gods. It also doesn't take away the fact that Jesus is God.
But since you deny Jesus' deity anyway, exalting humanity to Jesus' level is no problem for you.
At the same time, this doesn't mean that we are on the level of Jesus -- that we have become little gods. It also doesn't take away the fact that Jesus is God.
But since you deny Jesus' deity anyway, exalting humanity to Jesus' level is no problem for you.
Heh I all ready see the obvious question/answer in response to yours Arwen.
Isn't it written in the Gospels that Jesus is just a Man enpowered by the Holy Spirit indeed?
I'll answer the question too. Yes He was. However don't forget, it was by the Holy Spirit that Jesus was made. That's the resolving of the so-called Trinity Debate isn't it? The Father created for Himself a Son with His own Holy Spirit and offers to the world the gift of God is Salvation, God is With Us. What did the Son say? What did the Holy Spirit inside that Son say? Such a wonderful story it is indeed. I think Simiel/Stephen here has a lot more to teach us and help us understand than we all, myself included, may have thought at the beginning of this chat topic.
Isn't it written in the Gospels that Jesus is just a Man enpowered by the Holy Spirit indeed?
I'll answer the question too. Yes He was. However don't forget, it was by the Holy Spirit that Jesus was made. That's the resolving of the so-called Trinity Debate isn't it? The Father created for Himself a Son with His own Holy Spirit and offers to the world the gift of God is Salvation, God is With Us. What did the Son say? What did the Holy Spirit inside that Son say? Such a wonderful story it is indeed. I think Simiel/Stephen here has a lot more to teach us and help us understand than we all, myself included, may have thought at the beginning of this chat topic.
5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:
“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,[a]
And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
Bringing Many Sons to Glory
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:
“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”[c]
13 And again:
“I will put My trust in Him.”[d]
And again:
“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
He was made lower than the angels. God is not lower than the angels. Man is. So he came down as a man and did everything as a man. To redeem man you have to pay with a man. Now risin up he is above the angels and has risen us above the angels with him.
Ephesians 2:6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
My emphasis is not on human potential but on the power of God and his Holy Spirit which is in us.
“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,[a]
And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
Bringing Many Sons to Glory
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:
“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”[c]
13 And again:
“I will put My trust in Him.”[d]
And again:
“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
He was made lower than the angels. God is not lower than the angels. Man is. So he came down as a man and did everything as a man. To redeem man you have to pay with a man. Now risin up he is above the angels and has risen us above the angels with him.
Ephesians 2:6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
My emphasis is not on human potential but on the power of God and his Holy Spirit which is in us.
A
No, it isn't written in the Gospels that Jesus is just a man empowered by the Holy Spirit. Was He a man? Yes. But He was also God in the flesh.
To GodIsSalvation, before we go any further in this discussion there is something even more we need to discuss:
Whether or not Jesus had pre-existence before the incarnation
Some claim that Jesus didn't even exist until the incarnation. Is that what you claim?
When you wrote: "it was by the Holy Spirit that Jesus was made...The Father created for Himself a Son with His own Holy Spirit," were you just talking about His human body, or were you talking about His very existence?
To GodIsSalvation, before we go any further in this discussion there is something even more we need to discuss:
Whether or not Jesus had pre-existence before the incarnation
Some claim that Jesus didn't even exist until the incarnation. Is that what you claim?
When you wrote: "it was by the Holy Spirit that Jesus was made...The Father created for Himself a Son with His own Holy Spirit," were you just talking about His human body, or were you talking about His very existence?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
A
I'm not denying that Jesus came to earth as a human. What I am saying, though, is that Jesus was not only human.
I also am not convinced that He did His miracles as only a human, empowered by the Holy Spirit. It seems to me that His miracles were supposed to point to who He is. The fact that He walked on water showed His deity.
Heh I am more interested in your response to your same two questions here at the end. Though in all honesty I believe both. To throw in a little Bible reference since this is Bible Discussion Section. What does the Chapter 1 of the Gospel of John say? That is what I believe. Mind you it says it elsewhere in the Bible, but I think John put it into pretty good words that I can understand. Especially right at the beginning, John 1:1-2 " 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God."
Though don't get me wrong the rest of the chapter supports this too and is certainly well worth reading and I believe them also alogn with the other Gospel books to be True, and you should keep that in mind also, but just from those two verses quoted is a pretty good way to describe what I personally and currently understand. If I am wrong I am sorry, I am not trying to mislead you or anything, rather just trying to explain what I think and then see how other people think, hence why I am here on this site.
I freely admit my thinking is child-like and to a degree flawed but that's why I am trying and enjoying talking with all you people here. I'm just trying to learn more about God and Jesus in the spirit of Truth. So far this website very helpful to me with all the people on it. I am not trying to make a personal attack on you or God or anything. If you understand greater than me I am willing to consider and check into your teaching just like I could see Simiel/Stephen understand better than me and I want to learn more from him about his perspective on things.
I guess it goes back to how I personally view this chatroom/forum which is just as a big church. Which is awesome, I never really had a fellowship or regularly attended a stone church before with believers of Jesus that are well versed in the Bible so I am kinda new to these things, forgive me for any childish mistakes or stuff I am saying. I am willing to learn better, that's my whole point of coming back to this website. Thank you for your questions though they do make me wonder and want to look more into the Bible and understand Jesus better so even if you are wrong or I am wrong in my mind that's irrelevant because it simply gives me more stuff to consider to learn better. Either way I am glad Jesus brought me here and brought you here too even if we both hardly understand it completely.
Though don't get me wrong the rest of the chapter supports this too and is certainly well worth reading and I believe them also alogn with the other Gospel books to be True, and you should keep that in mind also, but just from those two verses quoted is a pretty good way to describe what I personally and currently understand. If I am wrong I am sorry, I am not trying to mislead you or anything, rather just trying to explain what I think and then see how other people think, hence why I am here on this site.
I freely admit my thinking is child-like and to a degree flawed but that's why I am trying and enjoying talking with all you people here. I'm just trying to learn more about God and Jesus in the spirit of Truth. So far this website very helpful to me with all the people on it. I am not trying to make a personal attack on you or God or anything. If you understand greater than me I am willing to consider and check into your teaching just like I could see Simiel/Stephen understand better than me and I want to learn more from him about his perspective on things.
I guess it goes back to how I personally view this chatroom/forum which is just as a big church. Which is awesome, I never really had a fellowship or regularly attended a stone church before with believers of Jesus that are well versed in the Bible so I am kinda new to these things, forgive me for any childish mistakes or stuff I am saying. I am willing to learn better, that's my whole point of coming back to this website. Thank you for your questions though they do make me wonder and want to look more into the Bible and understand Jesus better so even if you are wrong or I am wrong in my mind that's irrelevant because it simply gives me more stuff to consider to learn better. Either way I am glad Jesus brought me here and brought you here too even if we both hardly understand it completely.
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A
Peter could only do it because Jesus was right there.
And, yes, I can see how walking on the water wasn't the best example, because of this question of Peter.....so let me use another water example. Calming the storm. Jesus had the power to make the wind and the waves obey Him, and He had control over the water.
And, yes, I can see how walking on the water wasn't the best example, because of this question of Peter.....so let me use another water example. Calming the storm. Jesus had the power to make the wind and the waves obey Him, and He had control over the water.
If I told you In my city there was was tornnado watch yesterday and the winds were blowing around 60mph and raining hard and in Jesus name I said tornado you are not aloud here, winds rest and rain stop. And it did instantly. Would not believe me?
For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
And what does this mean to you? If you don't mine me asking.
For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
And what does this mean to you? If you don't mine me asking.
A
I was going to quote Scripture, and had it in my message, but took it out because I wanted to see how you would respond to my question first. I'll copy and paste them back to this post. I will answer my own questions to you as well
So my questions to you were this:
1.) Did Jesus have preexistence before the incarnation?
and
2.) When you wrote: "it was by the Holy Spirit that Jesus was made...The Father created for Himself a Son with His own Holy Spirit," were you just talking about His human body, or were you talking about His very existence?
My response:
I'll answer both questions in one response. As I have tried to state clearly on here, I believe that Jesus Christ is both fully human and fully God. Now, if He is fully God, then that has to mean that He is eternal -- that He eternally always existed, just as the Father has always eternally existed. There was no point in time in which He took on the God nature, as He always has existed as God.
But, obviously, we know that Jesus, as a human did not always exist. He was born into the world as a baby, just as every other baby is born. There was a point in time in which He took on the human nature. The Bible does say that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
So, if these two things are true, then we have to come to the conclusion that Jesus preexisted as God before the incarnation (before Jesus became human). We have to conclude that it was only Jesus' body that was created at the incarnation. Jesus Himself has always existed.
You were right to bring up John chapter 1 with this topic, although I'm unsure how you are interpreting it. People read all sorts of things into Bible passages, so what is straightforward to one person may not be to another person.
John 1:1-3 (NASB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]He was in the beginning with God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:14-18 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word became flesh, and [SUP][a][/SUP]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [SUP][b][/SUP]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. [SUP]15 [/SUP]John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me [SUP][c][/SUP]has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” [SUP]16 [/SUP]For of His fullness [SUP][d][/SUP]we have all received, and [SUP][e][/SUP]grace upon grace. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth [SUP][f][/SUP]were realized through Jesus Christ. [SUP]18 [/SUP]No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
From these passages from John chapter 1, there are a couple of things that we notice. First, John believes that Jesus preexisted. He uses the term "the Word" to describe the preexistent Jesus. Not only did "the Word" preexist, but John says, "In the beginning was the Word." I don't know Greek, but I've heard pastors explain that phrase in Greek is the exact same phrase that is used in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) to start out Genesis chapter 1. If this is this is the case, then John is in essence referring people back to Genesis chapter 1 here, and he said that Jesus was there.
Then in the part reads, "and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Okay -- now we have something more to work with. Someone might read this and think that there are two gods. But, we know from the rest of the Bible that there is only one God. So what does this mean? It must mean that there are at least two Persons who are the one God. The Word is God, and yet, He is not the only one who is God.
Then it says, "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." That means that the Word participated in doing the creating, which makes sense, since He is God.
Skipping down to verse 14 it says that the Word became flesh. This means that the Word became human, and the other things that I put in bold continue to highlight the things that I already explained.
The other verses that I was going to send to you to further this argument are:
John 8:58-59 (NASB)
[SUP]58 [/SUP]Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham [SUP][a][/SUP]was born, I am.” [SUP]59 [/SUP]Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus [SUP][b][/SUP]hid Himself and went out of the temple.
In the Old Testament God identified Himself as the I Am. Jesus applied this to Himself, and the Jews that He was talking to knew what He was claiming. That is why they picked up stones -- so that they could stone Him for blasphemy because He claimed to be God.
Micah 5:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“[SUP][a][/SUP]But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
[SUP][b][/SUP]His goings forth are from long ago,From the days of eternity.”
This is a prophecy in the Old Testament about the Messiah. Since Jesus is the Messiah, this is about Him.
There are more passages, but this should be sufficient evidence to both establish Jesus' deity as well as His preexistence.
I'll have to answer the rest of your post later because I'm talking to a friend right now.
So my questions to you were this:
1.) Did Jesus have preexistence before the incarnation?
and
2.) When you wrote: "it was by the Holy Spirit that Jesus was made...The Father created for Himself a Son with His own Holy Spirit," were you just talking about His human body, or were you talking about His very existence?
My response:
I'll answer both questions in one response. As I have tried to state clearly on here, I believe that Jesus Christ is both fully human and fully God. Now, if He is fully God, then that has to mean that He is eternal -- that He eternally always existed, just as the Father has always eternally existed. There was no point in time in which He took on the God nature, as He always has existed as God.
But, obviously, we know that Jesus, as a human did not always exist. He was born into the world as a baby, just as every other baby is born. There was a point in time in which He took on the human nature. The Bible does say that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
So, if these two things are true, then we have to come to the conclusion that Jesus preexisted as God before the incarnation (before Jesus became human). We have to conclude that it was only Jesus' body that was created at the incarnation. Jesus Himself has always existed.
You were right to bring up John chapter 1 with this topic, although I'm unsure how you are interpreting it. People read all sorts of things into Bible passages, so what is straightforward to one person may not be to another person.
John 1:1-3 (NASB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]He was in the beginning with God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:14-18 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word became flesh, and [SUP][a][/SUP]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [SUP][b][/SUP]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. [SUP]15 [/SUP]John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me [SUP][c][/SUP]has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” [SUP]16 [/SUP]For of His fullness [SUP][d][/SUP]we have all received, and [SUP][e][/SUP]grace upon grace. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth [SUP][f][/SUP]were realized through Jesus Christ. [SUP]18 [/SUP]No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
From these passages from John chapter 1, there are a couple of things that we notice. First, John believes that Jesus preexisted. He uses the term "the Word" to describe the preexistent Jesus. Not only did "the Word" preexist, but John says, "In the beginning was the Word." I don't know Greek, but I've heard pastors explain that phrase in Greek is the exact same phrase that is used in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) to start out Genesis chapter 1. If this is this is the case, then John is in essence referring people back to Genesis chapter 1 here, and he said that Jesus was there.
Then in the part reads, "and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Okay -- now we have something more to work with. Someone might read this and think that there are two gods. But, we know from the rest of the Bible that there is only one God. So what does this mean? It must mean that there are at least two Persons who are the one God. The Word is God, and yet, He is not the only one who is God.
Then it says, "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." That means that the Word participated in doing the creating, which makes sense, since He is God.
Skipping down to verse 14 it says that the Word became flesh. This means that the Word became human, and the other things that I put in bold continue to highlight the things that I already explained.
The other verses that I was going to send to you to further this argument are:
John 8:58-59 (NASB)
[SUP]58 [/SUP]Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham [SUP][a][/SUP]was born, I am.” [SUP]59 [/SUP]Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus [SUP][b][/SUP]hid Himself and went out of the temple.
In the Old Testament God identified Himself as the I Am. Jesus applied this to Himself, and the Jews that He was talking to knew what He was claiming. That is why they picked up stones -- so that they could stone Him for blasphemy because He claimed to be God.
Micah 5:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“[SUP][a][/SUP]But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
[SUP][b][/SUP]His goings forth are from long ago,From the days of eternity.”
This is a prophecy in the Old Testament about the Messiah. Since Jesus is the Messiah, this is about Him.
There are more passages, but this should be sufficient evidence to both establish Jesus' deity as well as His preexistence.
I'll have to answer the rest of your post later because I'm talking to a friend right now.
@Arwen. Nice I really like your reasonings and I can agree to them from my understanding of your statement. Very cool on adding in the Micah prophesy, just one of many prophecies about Jesus provably written before the time-period of the Gospels. Which of course adds greater weight to Jesus divine claim. Also cool on the quote of Jesus showing how He was around before Abraham. It seems to me unless I am misinterpreting you; you and me are on the same page of thinking in terms of believing Jesus is The Word.
Also cool on the quote of Jesus showing how He was around before Abraham. It seems to me unless I am misinterpreting you; you and me are on the same page of thinking in terms of believing Jesus is The Word.
thats a lie lol
1 natural disasters are works of God he would not let you stop them
2 the only way He would is if you did it in front of a crowd of people to show His glory and further the kingdom.
3 it wouldn't happen because you do not know the truth, God can't work throw you
so if you are trying to use this as some proof of what we can do its a bad example
and again you are stupid please stop talking
form David with love brother
1 natural disasters are works of God he would not let you stop them
2 the only way He would is if you did it in front of a crowd of people to show His glory and further the kingdom.
3 it wouldn't happen because you do not know the truth, God can't work throw you
so if you are trying to use this as some proof of what we can do its a bad example
and again you are stupid please stop talking
form David with love brother