Christians and military service

[Cobus]

ALL war is evil and Satan's will, gaurenteed! All in the Armies of the world needs repenting...

 

[Grey]

ALL war is evil and Satan's will, gaurenteed! All in the Armies of the world needs repenting...

What about the wars commanded by Yahweh in the Torah?

 

[Cobus]

Is the struggle we fight against flesh and blood? I am not a person in those times, I am a person AFTER Jesus not before Jesus. If you ask me, I would say it was not God commanding them to war. The only proof I have is the Words of Jesus.... Eph 6:12..
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

And if we look on how to ARM ourselves it is all with SPIRITUAL THINGS.... And it depends on how you interpret the Bible...

Let me ask you this.... If I am a Chrisitan, and I want to take over the Island of Madagascar, seeing it is only a bunch of sinning evil people that live there... MAY I DO IT? Go there and shoot every man, woman and child and then take the whole Island for me and my people. Would that be very GODLIKE?

If David did it why can't I? If the Israelites killed people and robbed their lansd why can't I? Would it be MURDER, aor KILLING or JUSTIFIED killing to take a land for Christianity???

Also who was wrong in the Boer-war here in the 1900? England a Chrisitan nation and South Africa also a Christian nation? Both parties at war, praying to Jesus? EXPLAIN THAT!

 

[Elizabeth619]

All governments and their supporting clergy since the beginning use the apostle Paul’s letter. 94% of Germans were Christian and so was Hitler and you best believe they all used that same scripture that you just referred to and it resulted in the deaths of over 50 million people.

If you believe like millions do that you are not living under a dictatorship then there’s nothing I can say and no scriptures I can use to convince you otherwise. The reason why people believe this is because they have been placed under a spell… a state of hypnosis as a result of repetitive programming since they were born. Some by the grace of God break the spell but most will not.


The best slaves are the ones who believe they are free.

I get what you are saying and yes even evil people can use scripture and twist it for their own agenda.
And when Paul said what he did about authority Rome was under an evil dictator at that time. He still said to submit. Yet I did make it clear we are to submit ONLY if it doesnt conflict with God.

P.S.
I do not and have not supported the United States current dictator.

 

[Elizabeth619]

I understand. However, I still think that if you think highly of this right to defend yourself, it might be a bias that will lead you into the way of thinking that violence is okie dokie.

Nope. I aown a handgun. As a matter of fact I am siting in the room with it right now. IT is actually loaded too, and locked up.
I have also never shot this particular gun, and hope I never will. Having a gun could also stop more violence. Couple years back there was a man that opened fire in a shopping mall. He could have killed many people. Thanks to one man who had an carry permit he shot the gunman. Only one life was lost that day. IT was the gunman that opened fire. Just because someone believes in the 2nd amendment doesn't mean that think violence is ok.

There is something that a police officer told me a long time ago. They don't "shoot to kill". They eliminate the threat. Eliminating the threat doesnt mean KILL.

 

[Elizabeth619]

So it's cool to sin as long as a leader says it? Notice it says these leaders in this section are God's servants. Name one leader today who can be called God's servant. This section is talking about the law of the land. Basically the law "so not speed" is it a sin to speed, no, is it a sin to speed if a leader says not to, yes. This isn't granting us to go against the word of God if a leader says to.

How many times in this thread have I stated we are to submit to authority as long as it DOES NOT go against God? SEVERAL!

You also need to look into who was the leader of Rome at that time. He certainly wasn't a Christian.

 

[Elizabeth619]

There's the key point! So the question now is killing against the word of God?

(I'm just gonna comment on everything you said on this one so I don't make a ton of posts lol)

The commandments are referenced to in the NT. Also I didn't say the law was void, rather the focus is now on the principle of the law. SO like the the law "do not eat swine" is void because the reason for it was that pigs were full of bacteria. Now we can properly clean them, so that law is gone. God states that it is not a sin to kill a thief. I would say the principle still stands there, so in that scenario it isn't wrong. When kings killed in the OT it was ONLY ok because God commanded it. If God didn't, then it wouldn't have been okay! To kill someone in war is a sin unless your side is commanded by God. No nation right now is commanded by God, so anyone who kills in war, anyone who fights in a war and attempts to kill, is sinning. Like you said we subject to authority unless is goes against the word of God. There is no verse that says it is okay to kill in war. There is no example of where it is okay to kill in war unless commanded by God. There are verses that say "thou shalt not kill". There are also verses that say "there is a time to kill" but you do not decide when that time is God does. If God says to kill xyz, then kill xyz, if he doesn't then it is a sin. We are to protect the week, but it doesn't say "protect them even if you have to go against the word of God". Focusing on military, it is a sin to kill, and the military kills. On the idea of self defense, it never says we can kill. It says protect and guard, but does a guard have to kill to keep safe? NO. Also like I said in that section read the context. It isn't a literal guarding rather a spiritual one. The time to kill is when God says to kill. THere isn't a verse that says lead your family to slaughter, but there are ones that say do not kill. Every death that was not punished was becasue God said for it to happen. Find me a section of self defense being condoned. If you can, I may change my view, but in my studies I have not found that to happen. I am not saying it was right that Christ died CUZ IT WAS MURDER, what I'm saying is it'd been wrong for the discples to go and murder for him unless God had told them to. Think if they did, the sacrifice wouldn't have happened. Don't lead on your own understanding rather that of God's. In your understanding, self defense is okay, find me a verse where God says it is okay to kill someone. There is a difference between protecting, and killing.

Do you have selective reading skills? It is astonishing how you have completely misinterpreted about everything I and others have said. It is also amazing how you think we are no longer under the law unless you can use the law to prove your point. I don't think you understand the significance of LEvitical and Mosaic law. You have backtracked many times. You have misinterpreted what many have said, and when someone shows you your error in understanding you scream CONTEXT when it is clear you don't know the context. So when youre talking about ones understand rather than Gods it is clear you are guilty of what you accuse.
No one has said killing is ok. No one has said murder is Godly. All we have said is that we are to protect ourselves and each other. In that event death may be the result, but not all the time.Yet if death happens no one said it was ok to kill. You clearly haven't understood what anyone has said.
You cannot kill out of revenge. That is murder. You cannot kill because you hate someone. All anyone has said is death may be a result of self defense. Even then taking a life is a serious thing.
I do want to know why you said it is ok to protect yourself now. How would you protect yourself if someone was about to kill you? Chances are if you don't kill them then you would likely cause physical harm to someone. Is that Godly?

 

[Ecclesiastik]

Nope. I aown a handgun. As a matter of fact I am siting in the room with it right now. IT is actually loaded too, and locked up.
I have also never shot this particular gun, and hope I never will. Having a gun could also stop more violence. Couple years back there was a man that opened fire in a shopping mall. He could have killed many people. Thanks to one man who had an carry permit he shot the gunman. Only one life was lost that day. IT was the gunman that opened fire. Just because someone believes in the 2nd amendment doesn't mean that think violence is ok.

There is something that a police officer told me a long time ago. They don't "shoot to kill". They eliminate the threat. Eliminating the threat doesnt mean KILL.

Well what I'm trying to say is that if I said "Video games are an ungodly waste of time and we should stop playing them." and you just bought the new Playstation or Xbox and 10 games to go with them, would you heed what I was saying?

If you were a decent Christian you probably would. However, there's still the chance that you would brush it off using certain verses "All things are lawful to me", "Judge not". There are many excuses that could be made. Half them sound perty valid. But does that make my statement any less valid? Biblically speaking, which one holds up more?

It can be hard to actually examine Scripture for truth when your current lifestyle doesn't line up with it and it means that you will have to give up something that you love.

I realize that people have been saved through the use of guns. However, my argument is that God is able to save even without guns. He doesn't need us to intercede for Him. That's mixing up the roles.

I'm afraid that if people persist in that same logic, they could end up starting another Crusades or Inquisition. This is what happens when people try to take their fate into their own hands...even if they originally start with good intentions.

 

[john832]

I get what you are saying and yes even evil people can use scripture and twist it for their own agenda.
And when Paul said what he did about authority Rome was under an evil dictator at that time. He still said to submit. Yet I did make it clear we are to submit ONLY if it doesnt conflict with God.

The overriding principle here is...

Act 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.

Now once that principle is clearly in mind, we read this...

Mat 22:17 Tell us, therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?"
Mat 22:18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?
Mat 22:19 Show Me the tax money." So they brought Him a denarius.
Mat 22:20 And He said to them, "Whose image and inscription is this?"
Mat 22:21 They said to Him, "Caesar's." And He said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

Which says the same thing, God first, but as long as it does not directly conflict with the Law of God, we should obey the law of the land. (There are those who sy it is wrong to pay taxes, Christ shows here the correct understanding.)

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
Rom 13:4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
Rom 13:5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.
Rom 13:6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

P.S.
I do not and have not supported the United States current dictator.

Neither do I support the previous one, Dick Cheney.

 

[john832]

ALL war is evil and Satan's will, gaurenteed! All in the Armies of the world needs repenting...

Blanket statement and incorrect...

Rev 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Well what I'm trying to say is that if I said "Video games are an ungodly waste of time and we should stop playing them." and you just bought the new Playstation or Xbox and 10 games to go with them, would you heed what I was saying?

If you were a decent Christian you probably would. However, there's still the chance that you would brush it off using certain verses "All things are lawful to me", "Judge not". There are many excuses that could be made. Half them sound perty valid. But does that make my statement any less valid? Biblically speaking, which one holds up more?

It can be hard to actually examine Scripture for truth when your current lifestyle doesn't line up with it and it means that you will have to give up something that you love.

I realize that people have been saved through the use of guns. However, my argument is that God is able to save even without guns. He doesn't need us to intercede for Him. That's mixing up the roles.

I'm afraid that if people persist in that same logic, they could end up starting another Crusades or Inquisition. This is what happens when people try to take their fate into their own hands...even if they originally start with good intentions.

We are talking about video games now?
Funny you mention that. MY sons father bought my son a war game for Christmas one year. He put it in the xbox and within 2 minutes he turned it off and threw it away. It didn't even have to tell him it was a bad game. Anyway, violence in games is for entertainment. Obviously violence should never be entertaining so I don't knwo why you would use that example.

Yes God can save without the use of violence, but why are we told to submit to authority? Is God going to intervene every time something goes wrong? OR did he put human authority in place to help create order?

Romans 13:1 There is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”

Given the time that Romans was written an even dictator was emperor of Rome at that time. Nero. Nero was a homosexual, a pedophile and according to history records his favorite past time was persecuting Christians. When Paul wrote this passage he knew how evil Nero was, but still told Christians we are to submit to authority.

Think about the persecutions in Acts 8. The killing of Stephen was due to corrupt authority. We all know Paul wasn't a really nice guy before his conversion. Yet because of evil rulers and evil hearts the great Commission was put in place. If it wasn't for these evil men then would the Great Commission have ever been spread throughout the world?
It was evil rulers that are partially responsible for the death of Jesus. If JEsus was never sacrificed then where is our salvation?

Why would God use evil rulers? I don't know, but he has used them before to bring judgement. God harderened Pharoh's heart when Moses brought people out of egypt. That is what set the last few plagues in place that caused Pharoh to release the slaves.
The fact that Rome was under such evil leadership and Paul still said to submit tells me that as hard as it may be to believe God did establish that authority. Yet, God will judge ALL rulers

 

[Elizabeth619]

Neither do I support the previous one, Dick Cheney.

You mean Bush? Cheney was only vice president

 

[Ecclesiastik]

We are talking about video games now?
Funny you mention that. MY sons father bought my son a war game for Christmas one year. He put it in the xbox and within 2 minutes he turned it off and threw it away. It didn't even have to tell him it was a bad game. Anyway, violence in games is for entertainment. Obviously violence should never be entertaining so I don't knwo why you would use that example.

Yes God can save without the use of violence, but why are we told to submit to authority? Is God going to intervene every time something goes wrong? OR did he put human authority in place to help create order?

Romans 13:1 There is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”

Given the time that Romans was written an even dictator was emperor of Rome at that time. Nero. Nero was a homosexual, a pedophile and according to history records his favorite past time was persecuting Christians. When Paul wrote this passage he knew how evil Nero was, but still told Christians we are to submit to authority.

Think about the persecutions in Acts 8. The killing of Stephen was due to corrupt authority. We all know Paul wasn't a really nice guy before his conversion. Yet because of evil rulers and evil hearts the great Commission was put in place. If it wasn't for these evil men then would the Great Commission have ever been spread throughout the world?
It was evil rulers that are partially responsible for the death of Jesus. If JEsus was never sacrificed then where is our salvation?

Why would God use evil rulers? I don't know, but he has used them before to bring judgement. God harderened Pharoh's heart when Moses brought people out of egypt. That is what set the last few plagues in place that caused Pharoh to release the slaves.
The fact that Rome was under such evil leadership and Paul still said to submit tells me that as hard as it may be to believe God did establish that authority. Yet, God will judge ALL rulers

I feel like you are missing the point of my illustrations. The whole point is that sometimes you have to set your emotional/personal investments aside in order to examine a matter.

If you play video games all day, you probably are going to not like the idea that video games are bad. If you own/collect/admire guns, you probably aren't going to like the idea that it would be better to not do so. It can be really hard when someone questions your lifestyle. It's part of the reason why I make a point of questioning my own before someone else has to come along and do it for me.

Yes, God establishes all authority. That's why David didn't kill Saul. That is also why we are not to respond evil to evil. We are supposed to rely on God for our rescue, not our own two hands.

God does intervene every time something is wrong. We may not understand what He does or it may not be the way we want Him to do something, but He still does something.

Do you think it was irresponsible for the apostles to have died for Christ when some of them had families? Shouldn't they have taken their swords up against the evil Roman legions who were committing genocide?

If not, then how do you justify your own personal war to save your life by owning a gun? Your life is not in your hands. If it is your time to go, that gun means nothing.

 

[john832]

You mean Bush? Cheney was only vice president

The actual power behind the throne. Bush was simply the figurehead.

 

[john832]

If not, then how do you justify your own personal war to save your life by owning a gun? Your life is not in your hands. If it is your time to go, that gun means nothing.

I disagree here. Fate is not the principle...

2Ki 20:1 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, "Thus says the LORD: 'Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.' "
2Ki 20:2 Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the LORD, saying,
2Ki 20:3 "Remember now, O LORD, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.
2Ki 20:4 And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
2Ki 20:5 "Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, 'Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: "I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD.
2Ki 20:6 And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David." ' "
2Ki 20:7 Then Isaiah said, "Take a lump of figs." So they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.
2Ki 20:8 And Hezekiah said to Isaiah, "What is the sign that the LORD will heal me, and that I shall go up to the house of the LORD the third day?"
2Ki 20:9 Then Isaiah said, "This is the sign to you from the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing which He has spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees or go backward ten degrees?"
2Ki 20:10 And Hezekiah answered, "It is an easy thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees; no, but let the shadow go backward ten degrees."

Hezekiah did not quite understand the complexities involved here. To accelerate the earth 10 degrees ahead is not any easier than stopping the earth and rotating it backwards 10 degrees. Under normal circumstances, the earth would have been obliterated in either case. This shows the amazing power of God.

2Ki 20:11 So Isaiah the prophet cried out to the LORD, and He brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down on the sundial of Ahaz.

Prayer changes the course of events. Notice verse 1...

2Ki 20:1 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, "Thus says the LORD: 'Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.' "

2Ki 20:2 Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the LORD, saying,
2Ki 20:3 "Remember now, O LORD, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.
2Ki 20:4 And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
2Ki 20:5 "Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, 'Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: "I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD.

 

[Elizabeth619]

If not, then how do you justify your own personal war to save your life by owning a gun? Your life is not in your hands. If it is your time to go, that gun means nothing.

If it is our time to go then what is the point in protecting anyone? Ok, a theif breaks in my home and tries to kill my son.... i guess it was his time to go.........I don't think so.
Now you're saying it is ok to deliver people to slaughter because you apparently support fate. Did I ever say I plan on killing anyonre? OR even shooting that gun?
God doesn't always "intervene" IF he did we would have no free will. IF God always intervenes then why is there still constant evil?
Remember Job and what God allowed Satan to do? God didn't intervene there, but he did give Satan limitations.

You are in the military right? Do you remember taking this oath?

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

 

[Ecclesiastik]

I disagree here. Fate is not the principle...
.

I'm not justifying sitting on your couch and doing nothing. I'm justifying depending on God. Not in a lazy fashion but in a fashion that gives God the glory and respect that He deserves, rather than your shooting skills.

 

[Ecclesiastik]

If it is our time to go then what is the point in protecting anyone? Ok, a theif breaks in my home and tries to kill my son.... i guess it was his time to go.........I don't think so.
Now you're saying it is ok to deliver people to slaughter because you apparently support fate. Did I ever say I plan on killing anyonre? OR even shooting that gun?
God doesn't always "intervene" IF he did we would have no free will. IF God always intervenes then why is there still constant evil?
Remember Job and what God allowed Satan to do? God didn't intervene there, but he did give Satan limitations.

You are in the military right? Do you remember taking this oath?

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

You've neglected to respond to the jist of my argument. That you could very well be turned to error because of a bias.

I did not say that you are never to respond to any stimulus ever.

But to keep in line with your argument, How about I get a nuclear bomb and keep it in my backyard in case North Korea gets too antsy? How about I buy a bomb shelter in case China attacks? Where do we draw the line in this issue of taking our life in our hands? When do we say "I'm just going to trust God"? Never?

I just got done talking to my pastor about this. Perhaps the reason why miracles aren't seen so much in America is because the people have such low faith/esteem for God. We have insurance, medical care, guns, stockpiles of food, secure jobs--We have effectively eliminated the need for God and we are happy with doing so. People think it laughable to think that God will provide. Are we becoming atheists?

We call it being presumptuous whenever someone reads God's promises and believes them. We call someone a zealot/radical whenever he wants to live the life that he sees in the Book. And we certainly don't take those seriously who call out possible areas of fault in our own lives.

Isn't there a problem here?

 

[Elizabeth619]

Who said anything about not trusting in God?
We are told to take care of ourselves and each other. I know that bc I trust in God he is there for me. You have no idea how many times God was watching over me when I was in over my head. He always provided a way out. I may not have seen it first but eventually I did.

As far as calling others a radical I could say you do the same. All I did was say I had a gun and now you seem to think I trust in it and not God. Not true.



This is off topic but what do you think about martial arts? Is karate wrong?

 

[tucksma]

Do you have selective reading skills? It is astonishing how you have completely misinterpreted about everything I and others have said. It is also amazing how you think we are no longer under the law unless you can use the law to prove your point. I don't think you understand the significance of LEvitical and Mosaic law. You have backtracked many times. You have misinterpreted what many have said, and when someone shows you your error in understanding you scream CONTEXT when it is clear you don't know the context. So when youre talking about ones understand rather than Gods it is clear you are guilty of what you accuse.
No one has said killing is ok. No one has said murder is Godly. All we have said is that we are to protect ourselves and each other. In that event death may be the result, but not all the time.Yet if death happens no one said it was ok to kill. You clearly haven't understood what anyone has said.
You cannot kill out of revenge. That is murder. You cannot kill because you hate someone. All anyone has said is death may be a result of self defense. Even then taking a life is a serious thing.
I do want to know why you said it is ok to protect yourself now. How would you protect yourself if someone was about to kill you? Chances are if you don't kill them then you would likely cause physical harm to someone. Is that Godly?

I havn't misunderstood what you have said, I keep trying to bring it back to the point of the forum which is military.
We are not under the law anymore, rather we are under the reasons behind the law. Like i said with the law about swine as an example. You are saying killing is okay in self defense. You are saying it isn't a sin ergo it is ok. I'm saying in the context of guarding, it is rather clear its a spiritual guarding. That's the only section I said context on. I was also commenting on many different posts at once, so it may have seemed unorganized. Also I'm not commenting on the stuff I agree with you on, which is also why it may come off odd. And no you are saying killing is okay in self defense. I'd like to see a verse for that. I can protect someone or some thing without killing anyone. It is okay to protect yourself, not okay to fight back. Why else would Jesus say to turn the other cheek when you are striked on the cheek turn the other. Its the concept of if someone is harming you, deal with it, don't fight back. If that wasn't the case every man who died for christ in the NT would have fought back, but they didn't. The way I'd protect myself if someone had a gun pointed at me would not be physical. I would attempt my best to get them not to do anything. If that doesn't work, welp, I'm dead and that's okay because I have faith.

I'm trying to focus on the military because with self defense I know what I will do, I also know that if you kill someone, unless God grants it in the bible, or directly to you (which I don't think will happen until we are immortalized but that's beside the point) then it is not okay.

You say I don't know the context, well prove it.

You say it is okay to kill in self-defense, well prove it.

Find me some verses that it says "it is okay to kill in defense".

Also just think about it for a second. You have faith, if you die, you are saved. If you kill that thief, their hope is gone.

Lastly, you are saying killing is okay in certain times. If not than we'd have no argument here.