What science and men discover about the world God created can be used to explain God or used as information to replace God. Take eggs, for instance. Science found they produced something bad for you, then further research found that was because they were raised and fed differently than the way God created them to be raised. Now, factory raised eggs are bad for you, eggs from chickens raised God's way are good for you. Science can be listened to, it helps understand God. It is just that God's knowledge beats out the sum total of all science.
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P
Would you like to be grafted in? Might be good to know what that means.
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [SUP] [/SUP]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
B
Exactly! The first 5 books are the teachings of God, given to men.
If there was righteousness before the first 5 books were written, then righteousness comes from something other than just the Pentateuch(TORAH). Although the Pentateuch does perfectly describe what God desires for our righteousness, and salvation, through faith.
If there was righteousness before the first 5 books were written, then righteousness comes from something other than just the Pentateuch(TORAH). Although the Pentateuch does perfectly describe what God desires for our righteousness, and salvation, through faith.
Exactly! The first 5 books are the teachings of God, given to men.
If there was righteousness before the first 5 books were written, then righteousness comes from something other than just the Pentateuch(TORAH). Although the Pentateuch does perfectly describe what God desires for our righteousness, and salvation, through faith.
If there was righteousness before the first 5 books were written, then righteousness comes from something other than just the Pentateuch(TORAH). Although the Pentateuch does perfectly describe what God desires for our righteousness, and salvation, through faith.
Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
Adn the word here for Laws is Torah. So, did they have God's teaching? Or does His truth change every whipstitch? Is the truth about His Law different now? How many times did it change? Has it changed since 31AD? Has it changed since last year? Either God does not change (Mal 3:6, Heb 13:8) or we have no dependable consistency and cannot know what God really wants of us.
I keep saying these things are not right!! I am told that is not believing the bible as it plainly states!! No one is listening!!
Let me see if I can help explain.
You say the law of Moses has been cancelled, and you say it is plainly said that
the law of Moses is the commandments. God gave the commandments, how is this not saying to disregard God.
the law of Moses is the commandments. God gave the commandments, how is this not saying to disregard God.
One set was given through Moses, and the other set was given through his Son.
The set given through Moses are the Ten Commandments, with a curse attached for imperfect obedience (Jer 11:3-4; Dt 27:26),
and, therefore, these laws curse (condemn) everyone (Gal 3:10), without exception.
The other set given through the Son are the Two Great Commandments (Mt 22:37-39), which in obeying
will necessarily be obedience to the Ten Commandments (Mt 22:40),
the difference being there is no condemnation (Ro 8:1), or curse, for imperfect obedience
to these two laws.
So the people of God in the NT are under the second set of laws given by Christ (Mt 22:37-39),
which is necessarily obedience to the Ten Commandments and, therefore, obedience to these two
fulfills the first set (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:10; Gal 5:6).
You see, God gave the curses with the Mosaic law, and we cannot separate what God has joined.
Without its curse, the Mosaic law is not the Mosaic law.
You cannot be subject to the Mosaic law without being subject to is curse.
But being subject to the curse (which cannot be separated from the Mosaic law) is contrary to the gospel (Gal 3:13).
We have been redeemed from that curse (Gal 3:13) and are now under the law of Christ
in Mt 22:37-39, rather than the law of Moses with its inseparable curse.
But the people of God are still under the commandments of God in Christ's commandments (Mt 22:37-40).
You say that Paul says that we are under the new covenant, and being under the new covenant means that all the promises that God gave in the old has been done away with, all of them.
conditioned on Israel's total consecration to the Lord as his people who live by his rule
(Jer 11:4-5; Ex 19:5-6, 24:3).
But the people broke that covenant conditioned on their obedience (Jer 11:10), thereby
making it null and void.
So the promises of that covenant were made null and void by the people (Heb 8:7-8), not by God.
God's commitment was everlasting, if they remained faithful, which they did not.
The old (Sinaitic) covenant being broken, God then promised a new covenant (Jer 31:31-34; Lk 22:20), not like the old covenant conditioned on perfect obedience, but instead conditioned on faith.
So yes, the promise of the old Sinaitic covenant, to be Israel's God, conditioned on her faithfulness, has been done away with, and replaced with the promise of the new covenant (Lk 22:20), conditioned on faith in Christ Jesus.
How is this not saying that Christ did away with what God told us? You say that if history has found new facts about what people were talking about, about what they were saying the law of Moses was, it must be done away with because you believe your interpretation of what the law of Moses meant to Paul is too right to have anything, any writing from those days say that anything you think it means could possibly be wrong in any way. Am I misunderstanding the position of the church? I don't think so.
The Christian's understanding of Paul's words are based on the plain meaning of Paul's words,
not on someone else's words.
It really matters not what other people were talking about in the past,
all that matters is the plain meaning of the words in the revelation of Christ given to us by Paul.
We have to decide if God gave us a word that can be understood, believed and trusted on its own, or not.
We have to decide if God's arm was too short to accomplish his revelatory will for his people, or not.
We have to decide if God needs the opinions of men to override the plain meaning of Paul's words, or not.
So think on these things. . .maybe they will help.
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This is the prime example why you are blinded to truth. Instead of arguing where you have no understanding, pray to see the truth. Theos and Christos are also dedicated to other gods. That is not the name of the Creator.
"Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek Your Name O Yahúweh ... That men may know that You Whose Name alone is Yahúweh , are the Most High over all the earth," Psalm 83:16-18.
"Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek Your Name O Yahúweh ... That men may know that You Whose Name alone is Yahúweh , are the Most High over all the earth," Psalm 83:16-18.
It is not for me to improve it.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Another way to say this, the spiritual mind is friends with Almighty, for it is subject to the law of Almighty, and Messiah makes this possible.
Another way to say this, the spiritual mind is friends with Almighty, for it is subject to the law of Almighty, and Messiah makes this possible.
Not necessarily.
That must come from other Scriptures, not from the reverse of the above Scripture.
L
You are assuming that because it is not written that they had the Torah teaching, then they must not have had it, yet we read...
Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
Adn the word here for Laws is Torah. So, did they have God's teaching? Or does His truth change every whipstitch? Is the truth about His Law different now? How many times did it change? Has it changed since 31AD? Has it changed since last year? Either God does not change (Mal 3:6, Heb 13:8) or we have no dependable consistency and cannot know what God really wants of us.
Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
Adn the word here for Laws is Torah. So, did they have God's teaching? Or does His truth change every whipstitch? Is the truth about His Law different now? How many times did it change? Has it changed since 31AD? Has it changed since last year? Either God does not change (Mal 3:6, Heb 13:8) or we have no dependable consistency and cannot know what God really wants of us.
God's principles are unchanging.
They were taken by man from the beginning (the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil), before the TORAH was written.
Man has always been responsible for his sin, because God's teachings are more than letters and words.
I am on your side bro. be moderate.
D
when i visit with my German family they call me by the German version of my name...
but does that change who i am?
but does that change who i am?
Hebrew is not superior to Greek or any other language. God spoke the Israelite in their language and that is why the OT is in Hebrew. The NT is written in Greek as it is to the gentiles and there is nothing wrong with Greek in the slightest.
L
Exactly. My German friends also pronounced my name as Germans do. My brother lives in Honolulu and his native Hawaiian fishing buddy calls him by his Hawaiian equivalent. Hizikaya calls new testament people by their hebrew name instead of their given Greek name.
Hebrew is not superior to Greek or any other language. God spoke the Israelite in their language and that is why the OT is in Hebrew. The NT is written in Greek as it is to the gentiles and there is nothing wrong with Greek in the slightest.
Hebrew is not superior to Greek or any other language. God spoke the Israelite in their language and that is why the OT is in Hebrew. The NT is written in Greek as it is to the gentiles and there is nothing wrong with Greek in the slightest.
I think Hizi was also right in posting Zeph 3:9, that God will one day reunite all the languages that were divided at Babel.
Perhaps that language will be a pure form of Hebrew. Perhaps it will be something entirely different.
Thanks for asking, but I prefer to be an inward jew, not a fleshly one. There is no profit today in being a literal jew, only a spiritual one.
Rom 3:1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.
You are right, for the time we are in.
I think Hizi was also right in posting Zeph 3:9, that God will one day reunite all the languages that were divided at Babel.
Perhaps that language will be a pure form of Hebrew. Perhaps it will be something entirely different.
I think Hizi was also right in posting Zeph 3:9, that God will one day reunite all the languages that were divided at Babel.
Perhaps that language will be a pure form of Hebrew. Perhaps it will be something entirely different.
Elin said:
RedTent said:
This question, what to do about OT teachings, has torn the church apart for many years. Everyone is taking a stand, now. It began as soon as Christ was crucified, as it tells us in Acts. Paul is front and center of this, even in Acts he was accused of being against the Torah (first 5 books of scripture).
We can read what he says about it, that he is not against the Torah.
We can read what he says about it, that he is not against the Torah.
Yet, we read in Galatians and in Hebrew that he was against "the law of Moses".
The law of Moses is in the Torah.
The NT writers were Jewish.
If they were talking about the "Torah," they would have used the word, rather than "the law,"
which is not the whole Torah.
Either
Paul is telling a lie somewhere, or
we are going to have to look elsewhere for what he meant by the law of Moses.
Paul is telling a lie somewhere, or
we are going to have to look elsewhere for what he meant by the law of Moses.
The law of Moses did not mean the Torah.
From there, the church is split in two.
(Mt 22:37-39) from two commandments to 613.
The law of Christ fulfills the law; i.e., the Ten Commandments (Ro 3:10; Gal 5:6), which were the basis of the Sinaitic Covenant
which Israel could not, and did not, keep, so God wrote them on hearts in the New Covenant.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like it: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
So, Mat 22:37-39 is not the Ten Commandments? It is some new law from Christ?
Are you not familiar with the verse which follows Mt 22:37-39; i.e.,
"On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (Mt 22:40)
This "law of Christ" you keep spouting replaced the Ten Commandments is actually THE Ten Commandments.
The law of Moses is still not the Torah, it is in the Torah,
and you are non-responsive to the only questions I asked.
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Not necessarily.
That must come from other Scriptures, not from the reverse of the above Scripture.
And what did Paul say just a few paragraphs before?
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
And yet we have people here telling us the Law is terrible and horrible and keeping the Law is sin.
Another Judaizing attempt to change the law of Christ.
Are you not familiar with the verse which follows Mt 22:37-39; i.e.,
"On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (Mt 22:40)
Uh. . .yeah. . .what part of Mt 22:40 did you not understand?
The law of Moses is still not the Torah, it is in the Torah.
Are you not familiar with the verse which follows Mt 22:37-39; i.e.,
"On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (Mt 22:40)
Uh. . .yeah. . .what part of Mt 22:40 did you not understand?
The law of Moses is still not the Torah, it is in the Torah.
Exactly! The first 5 books are the teachings of God, given to men.
If there was righteousness before the first 5 books were written, then righteousness comes from something other than just the Pentateuch(TORAH). Although the Pentateuch does perfectly describe what God desires for our righteousness, and salvation, through faith.
If there was righteousness before the first 5 books were written, then righteousness comes from something other than just the Pentateuch(TORAH). Although the Pentateuch does perfectly describe what God desires for our righteousness, and salvation, through faith.
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
It is still a sin to murder or lie or break any of the Ten Commandments.
Never ceases to amaze me...
Rom 3:1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.
Rom 3:1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.
But that is not a saving advantage.
They still died in the guilt of unbelief, with no forgiveness.
Their advantages are like the blessings of rain and food given by God to the wicked which do not save.
Elin said:
Not necessarily.
That must come from other Scriptures, not from the reverse of the above Scripture.
That must come from other Scriptures, not from the reverse of the above Scripture.
And what did Paul say just a few paragraphs before?
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
And yet we have people here telling us the Law is terrible and horrible and keeping the Law is sin.