Attack of the Judaizers

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Jan 13, 2014
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2 Cor 2:9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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Hosheyah 4:6, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you will be no priest to Me. Because you have forgotten the Law of Yahweh, I will also forget your children."
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
AsI posted my last post, I got about 6 new posts: Therefore I see more clearly as to how the arguments are flowing. To WomanLovesTX.do you accept the N.T,'s changes of the O.T. laws? And to Elin,Have you thrown out all law keeping? I think Elin will say no. and WomanLoveTX will say, no. Hoffco
 
Jan 19, 2013
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I think I finally understand! We are reconciled by His death (from the fall of Adam and our legal inheritance of death through that sin)
and are saved by His life (by regeneration and sanctification by His Spirit, and His current work interceding for us, and His future inheritance that we gain with Him).

Did I finally get it? If not, please go over it again.
Almost, but reconciliation is salvation. . .from the wrath of God.

For what we are saved from is God's wrath on our sin (Jn 3:36; Ro 5:9, 1:18; Eph 2:3, 5:6)
at the final judgment (Col 3:6; 1Th 1:10).

We are saved from that wrath on our sin when
it is forgiven through faith in the atoning sacrifice (blood, death) of Christ (Ro 3:25)
which reconciles us to God by that forgiveness which he purchased on the cross by paying our debt.

Our past salvation (reconciliation with God) from the wrath of God is by Christ's death
in his earthly ministry.
Our present (sancitification) and future (glorification) salvation are by Christ's unending life
in his heavenly ministry where he applies what he purchased for us in his earthly ministry by his death.

The substantive difference is between Christ's earthly ministry (death) and
his heavenly ministry (application),
not between his earthly death and earthly life.

Can you give it back to me in a way that may be less confusing to others?
 
D

danschance

Guest
I joined up to strengthen my faith in Jesus Christ. I am a lonely person who needs love and care from others as much I as love and care for others, even though I fail every day to do this, as Jesus did. I explored this post and some others, and I do not understand them. They have deeply troubled me and I feel very unsettled.

We are saved by the life Jesus lived under the Law on our behalf, first Israel His people then for all people. We are saved by His death. I read someone try to say we are not saved by death but by His life, by using Romans to do so. This is very troubling for me. It says if we were reconciled to God by His death, which He willingly submitted to after having lived without sin perfectly under the Law that God said not one other person kept, how much more will be saved by His life.

This does not mean we were not saved by His death. This is a very upsetting thing to say. It means how much more will He be able and willing to keep us saved by His life, for He was raised from the grave to bring us all the way to God, the final place eternally.

I have studied the Bible both Old and New Testaments, and it is all the whole counsel of God and all scripture is good for the Christian and the unsaved alike. But one thing I thought was a foundational belief in God was that we are to know for certain we are not saved by the Law. Not because the Law is not good but because we are unable.

I can not save myself in any way. Not by keeping the Law, not by anything I do. This is what is meant in Romans. That if while I was still an enemy of God, if by the life under His Father's Law Jesus lived without sin and if by His death according to His Father's Law Jesus reconciled me to God without my doing anything, how much more will be most certainly be saved by His Resurrection life since He is the Priest and the Author and the Finisher of my faith? I'm sorry this has been a very troubling place for me to be, I am not used to so many people accusing one another of being more able to save themselves or keep themselves in the salvation the Trinity Our God accomplished.

Can anyone save themselves?

I saw someone write so Jesus did it all and now we are free to live as we wish and I thought the answer was yes. We are. Didn't Jesus come to set us free to live as we wish? Knowing I could not save myself, and what I have been saved from makes me wish to live my life as near to Jesus the Savior as I can. Is this a sin? In what way is it a sin to wish to live near to Jesus Christ, grateful that He loved me when I did not even know it. I am not worth saving, even to this day I can not do what Jesus did. Are there truly persons here saying they are now more worthy of salvation than they were before? This is upsetting I am sorry this is long.
Sorry Keren. Maybe this is thread is not good for you. You are right in saying Jesus saves us as there is nothing we can do to save ourselves. We can't be good enough for God if we have sinned. Yet His amazing love for us is evident as He sent Jesus to die for us.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
To Hizikyah, You love what Jesus says but hate what the N.T. says. How can you do that? the N.T. is Jesus,God's words.? Loe to all, Hoffco
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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The law of Christ is the only law I follow. I have mentioned this in many posts and listed scripture as proof.
The Ten Commandments are the Law of Christ. He spoke them then He said they would be around after the heavens and earth were gone (Luke 16:17).
 
Jan 13, 2014
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There is no argument
follow Jesus the word of God or follow man
whatever you want
sunday is not the day God told me he would bless me with


show me where I am supposed to keep sunday now and that god will bless me?

Cain did his own thing
Baalam did his own thing
Saul did his own things
and Judas did his own thing

I want to do Gods thing.
 
D

danschance

Guest
The Ten Commandments are the Law of Christ. He spoke them then He said they would be around after the heavens and earth were gone (Luke 16:17).
Nope. 9 of the 10 commandments are in the law of Christ. The sabbath is not a part of the law of Christ. I have said this many times.
 
L

LT

Guest
I think it would be better to follow the bible
but you know
the bible IS Jewish

so maybe Judaizing is a good term

beter than paganizing by following pagan tradition

ok

what would you rather do?

Judaize?
or Paganize?

those are the two choices
Those aren't the only choices...
Both of those equal death.
 
B

BradC

Guest
It sounds as though some believe because they have become a member of the Body of Yeshua they are instantly perfect. These folks are exceedingly misled by their self glorification, void of humility, and unable to hear reason, and they should be avoided until either they repent or go away. No, this is not a direct quote, but it is fromt he Torah of the entire Word. Beginning to reign without the King present is a thought only entertained by the enemy.
Being perfect in Christ is according to Col 2:10, 'For we are complete in Him. The word complete is pleroo, which means to be rendered full and perfect and that is positionally and not experiential or practical. There is a difference and we have to understand the difference so that we can relate to the truth in the right way and manner. That completion and being made perfect in Christ is instant the moment we believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ. We have a perfect standing before the Father through Christ and have been accepted in the Beloved (Eph 1:6). This is the confession of the NT believer who has been placed in Christ and hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3) with more than (60) references to this in the book of Ephesians alone. Any NT believer (both Jew and Gentile who make up the church) who does not accept their perfect standing before the Father and strives in their flesh to obtain unto that perfection through the law is misguided and being mislead and their capacity to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ will be hindered. Christ, as the head of the body (Col 1:18, 2:19), reigns within the heart of the believer, indwelling him through the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:10,11).

Rom 5:17-21
17 For if because of one man’s trespass (lapse, offense) death reigned through that one, much more surely will those who receive [God’s] overflowing grace (unmerited favor) and the free gift of righteousness [putting them into right standing with Himself] reign as kings in life through the one Man Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
18 Well then, as one man’s trespass [one man’s false step and falling away led] to condemnation for all men, so one Man’s act of righteousness [leads] to acquittal and right standing with God and life for all men.
19 For just as by one man’s disobedience (failing to hear, heedlessness, and carelessness) the many were constituted sinners, so by one Man’s obedience the many will be constituted righteous (made acceptable to God, brought into right standing with Him).
20 But then Law came in, [only] to expand and increase the trespass [making it more apparent and exciting opposition]. But where sin increased and abounded (according to the law), grace (God’s unmerited favor) has surpassed it and increased the more and superabounded,
21 So that, [just] as sin has reigned in death, [so] grace (His unearned and undeserved favor) might reign also through righteousness (right standing with God) which issues in eternal life through Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) our Lord.

There's a 'corncob pipe full'!
 
Jan 13, 2014
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inventing a doctrine that says one of the commandments are no more binding makes you antichrist

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

that is sad
 
Jan 13, 2014
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Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.


Sabbath is eternal
 
L

LT

Guest
I am wondering what Hizi, John, RedTent, etc... believe that Paul was refuting when discussing "Judaizers".

Is circumcision the only thing he was talking about? If so, why are the other related laws not abrogated along with circumcision?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
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To Hizikyah, You love what Jesus says but hate what the N.T. says. How can you do that? the N.T. is Jesus,God's words.? Loe to all, Hoffco
You ignore all I post and make up your own meaning and thinking and call it MINE.

Your are being dishonest and twisted.

I am not someone who had Paul read to me one in church, I have read the "NT" and studied the history of THOSE times for years, people completely miss what is actually being said because they understand nothing of the times. Narrow is the way, sad to say but there is much more false doctrine than true doctrine in the world, it is telling of those who speak evil of those who promote actually following the Laws of the Most High and have faith in Messiah, SCRIPTURE SAID IT WOULD BE EXACTLY SO:

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

are you on the side of those "keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah"

or do you fight against those who do the right thing?
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
I am wondering what Hizi, John, RedTent, etc... believe that Paul was refuting when discussing "Judaizers".

Is circumcision the only thing he was talking about? If so, why are the other related laws not abrogated along with circumcision?
He was refuting that belief that keeping the Law EARNED salvation. It does not.
 
Jan 13, 2014
960
16
0
Being perfect in Christ is according to Col 2:10, 'For we are complete in Him. The word complete is pleroo, which means to be rendered full and perfect and that is positionally and not experiential or practical. There is a difference and we have to understand the difference so that we can relate to the truth in the right way and manner. That completion and being made perfect in Christ is instant the moment we believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ. We have a perfect standing before the Father through Christ and have been accepted in the Beloved (Eph 1:6). This is the confession of the NT believer who has been placed in Christ and hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3) with more than (60) references to this in the book of Ephesians alone. Any NT believer (both Jew and Gentile who make up the church) who does not accept their perfect standing before the Father and strives in their flesh to obtain unto that perfection through the law is misguided and being mislead and their capacity to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ will be hindered. Christ, as the head of the body (Col 1:18, 2:19), reigns within the heart of the believer, indwelling him through the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:10,11).

Rom 5:17-21
17 For if because of one man’s trespass (lapse, offense) death reigned through that one, much more surely will those who receive [God’s] overflowing grace (unmerited favor) and the free gift of righteousness [putting them into right standing with Himself] reign as kings in life through the one Man Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
18 Well then, as one man’s trespass [one man’s false step and falling away led] to condemnation for all men, so one Man’s act of righteousness [leads] to acquittal and right standing with God and life for all men.
19 For just as by one man’s disobedience (failing to hear, heedlessness, and carelessness) the many were constituted sinners, so by one Man’s obedience the many will be constituted righteous (made acceptable to God, brought into right standing with Him).
20 But then Law came in, [only] to expand and increase the trespass [making it more apparent and exciting opposition]. But where sin increased and abounded (according to the law), grace (God’s unmerited favor) has surpassed it and increased the more and superabounded,
21 So that, [just] as sin has reigned in death, [so] grace (His unearned and undeserved favor) might reign also through righteousness (right standing with God) which issues in eternal life through Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) our Lord.

There's a 'corncob pipe full'!
wrong law

if you are saying the 10 commanments are nailed to the cross then you would have to sacrifice sheep
for there are two laws

eternal law and the sheep law