Woman should not teach or assume authority over men (applies to secular????)

[tucksma]

I don't understand what you mean there. A prophecy is a statement of fact. It is true, not maybe true, or a little true, or a lot true. Just simply true. How do you add weight to truth?

Would you be kind enough to provide me with an example?

He stated he cannot give one on the post above. I personally don't see God calling a women to pastor unless there is no man willing to do it. That's my opinion based off examples in the bible though, it never straight forward says that in the bible. I can't think of any other reason the words spoken by Paul, inspired by God, would be put aside. Usually I'd never say put anything in the bible aside, but in this specific concept there are examples of women taking over leadership position because of the failures of men. I just think that can be the only time.

 

[Praus]

List of United States military bases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
THE USA secures Germany's status as a democratic nation????? Seems like it's a just a base for the USA. Anyway.

[video=youtube;dwfIf1WMhgc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwfIf1WMhgc[/video]

 

[GreenNnice]

He stated he cannot give one on the post above. I personally don't see God calling a women to pastor unless there is no man willing to do it. That's my opinion based off examples in the bible though, it never straight forward says that in the bible. I can't think of any other reason the words spoken by Paul, inspired by God, would be put aside. Usually I'd never say put anything in the bible aside, but in this specific concept there are examples of women taking over leadership position because of the failures of men. I just think that can be the only time.

I'm more lenient than this and allow an understanding of the wives spoken of in 1 Cor. 14 are not women who are called to be pastors by God, tucksmama. That's right, the normal woman, with her husband, who is a childbearer, and, not with more learning, including seminary, is to be quiet and learn from the pastor and ask questions at home. Makes sense. Meh. Why argue that fact.

But, yes, God can call women to pastor in a church, you might not think so, but the Holy Spirit can do it, not often, but, it's done in today's world. Otherwise, the 100s of women pastors out there today are all sinning and spiting God. I don't believe that, Philly. Do you

I don't understand what you mean there. A prophecy is a statement of fact. It is true, not maybe true, or a little true, or a lot true. Just simply true. How do you add weight to truth?

Would you be kind enough to provide me with an example?

question one: It's simple to understand, really. Prophesying is foretelling the future and there's a certain heaviness to that being done for others to hear. But, that's not really preaching or teaching. Prophesying is a gift from God and it's used today to edify churches that need some boost to it's spiritual condition/temperature. Same goes for tongues/miracles that God does through others.


question 2: Did you read my last post? I gave you example of Phoebe, who was a 'servant,' or, 'deacon,' some versions state, which is, again, gray area, as the word 'deacon' is probably but not necessarily a person who was in authority over men in her Cencharea church.

But, other than her, in Acts, there was Aquila's wife, Priscilla, who, they both taught Christian doctrine to Apollos, I don't know of any other women that in the bible were teaching men Christian doctrine

Again, don't try to play God, Philly. God calls people all the time to different positions, teachers, preachers, apostles, evangelists, per Ephesians 4. That's not changed since the 1st century. IF a man is not willing to lead a church, God COULD call a woman to pastor. over a congregation, not likely, but we don't know God's mind, God's plan, we THINK we know, well, some think they do, but, they don't.

I don't know anyone personally that is a woman pastor, I used to, she was with Lutheran Church, so, assuming that denomination allows women to pastor on a small scale, if not large. But, yeah, don't mess with God.

Personally, you can go ahead and take your stand and I will take mine and I am just not judgmental of God using women for pastoring, sometimes. I think, if I'm wrong to think that, it will be just fine. I'm on women's side, to be able to pastor, and, God knows my heart

But you? God will speak to you, personally, about this matter on your day to get your rewards. And, your stance to degrade, denigrate, demoralize women who are ALREADY pastors in churches who read this; I'll just say will have it's just reward for you on 'that' day

 

[Nick01]

1 Timothy 2:11-15

[SUP]11 [/SUP]A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For Adam was formed first, then Eve. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.



Hey, so while this applies to the Church... could it also apply in a secular settings, like work or college? I think we can... Consider our more fundamental beliefs, like not lying or stealing. Do we apply those beliefs, in a general way, in a secular setting? We do.

Also, I think the secular have some awareness...
Romans 2:14-15


[SUP]14 [/SUP](Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. [SUP]15 [/SUP]They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)


Anyways, any supporting or opposing scripture would be great.

No. It seems fairly clear to me that the context of Chapter 2 (and certainly chapter 3) is of the gathering, or the ekklesia, or the church. The teaching is apostolic teaching. It does not apply to non-Christian, non-church settings.

 

[cjordan38]

Prophesying is not 'preaching,' or, 'teaching,' at least, that's what those against women being called by God to pastor or teach in a church would tell you, cjord.

Prophesying does not teach a woman anything. Prophesying, or, a woman telling a man of things to come in life does not make her have authority over a man.

That's a good question, but, truthfully, that's not an argument to me, it's arguing something that's, really, with too much gray area.

If you read you will see I put preach the Word slso....And who said im trying to argue.... You never argue about the Word just tell it and keep moving...now whoever is mad that a woman can be a pastor and can teach and can preach then take it up with God...I know the truth.... Its funny how people say they have the Holy Spirit and know God yet he hasnt revealed to the a woman of God....And to get something across I know that a woman can be a pastor, teacher, evangelist, prophet, and apostle. ... Here is proof....Question: Who are the people of God? Answer: Many are called, but few are chosen. The ones chosen to do a work in the 5 fold ministry are people of God. Everybody else was called into the body of Christ....So tell me if many are called and few are chosen, the ones who dont believe women can be leaders are saying that thoses few called are only men? Not so because then you call God a liar....He said whosoever will let him come...And if you must know sir if a man is a bishop and a woman is a prophet she is over him due to her calling...A bishop was never called in the 5 fold ministry....Hopefully these non believers will seek to get closer to God....Is anything too hard for God?

 

[cjordan38]

I would say men are inclined to do wrong on purpose. But I would say that about all humanity, not just men, but women too. Just look at today's time, people do wrong all the time.

Also Paul straight forwardly says men are leaders and bases it off of Adam and Eve. Nowhere in the bible does it say men and women have equal society opportunities, at least not that I'm aware of. The evidence is there, you just seem to ignore it and say that it was only implied to the people he was sending the letter to. If this was true, then why even put the whole Book of Timothy in the bible if it isn't meant for us? Does that make any sense? Why would 1 Tim 2 be in the bible, if it wasn't meant for us. Also if women are supposed to be allowed to lead in the church just like men, why would Paul say differently? If the bible teaches men and women both can teach, why would Paul then teach something different? That doesn't make sense either. The word of God doesn't change based on your situation. I know you don't like hearing that, but it's what God says. There would be no point to 1 Tim 2 if it isn't meant for us to read and apply to our lives.

Funny because you just called God unjust....Everybody is equal in his eyes.....Prove to me in the Word that God cant use a woman to be a Leader....All you read was something about women coming subject to the man which the man is God.... Its funny how people say that Deborah wasnt the leader and the Word clearly states she was the leader of Isreal...Not to mention....I see that these men in here have too much pride but Job 24 states that for a little while you be lifted up then God will cut you off like the ears of corn...You see the truth and dont accept it

 

[iamsoandso]

He used an ass...read the word and know it for yourself...And those scriptures that you present about the male over the household is for flesh not spirit.

you misunderstand me when i ask "an animal to talk,which animal?",,that is the serpent is speaking to the woman(not god),Noah sends a dove to see if there is dry land,the ass speaks(in the verse you are referencing) the birds bring meat and bread to Elijah during the drought,Nebuchadnezzar is turned into an ox to convey gods message to him, god used the whale to convey his message in Jonah there are several prophetic books to convey messages in the old test(lion,ox,eagle,lamb,goat ect.) there are other beast that speak(two horned beast),and the image of the beast speaks,,,i was just curious which animal/beast you were referring to,thank you for stating which one ,,,

 

[homwardbound]

1 Timothy 2:11-15

[SUP]11 [/SUP]A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For Adam was formed first, then Eve. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.



Hey, so while this applies to the Church... could it also apply in a secular settings, like work or college? I think we can... Consider our more fundamental beliefs, like not lying or stealing. Do we apply those beliefs, in a general way, in a secular setting? We do.

Also, I think the secular have some awareness...
Romans 2:14-15


[SUP]14 [/SUP](Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. [SUP]15 [/SUP]They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)


Anyways, any supporting or opposing scripture would be great.

When one sees and worships in Spirit and truth, one then sees as God does and walks as Christ walked in Love from Father.
Romans 2:11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Colossians 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
James 2:9 but if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[didymos]

[video=youtube;dwfIf1WMhgc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwfIf1WMhgc[/video]

I have a feeling that your post is very offensive to the german people.
At the moment they're more of a democracy than the US.

 

[homwardbound]

1 Timothy 2:11-15

[SUP]11 [/SUP]A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For Adam was formed first, then Eve. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.



Hey, so while this applies to the Church... could it also apply in a secular settings, like work or college? I think we can... Consider our more fundamental beliefs, like not lying or stealing. Do we apply those beliefs, in a general way, in a secular setting? We do.

Also, I think the secular have some awareness...
Romans 2:14-15


[SUP]14 [/SUP](Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. [SUP]15 [/SUP]They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)


Anyways, any supporting or opposing scripture would be great.

Christ came to give us new life in the Spirit of God the Father, This is completed as done through the cross first the death for us to be dead to flesh that we all are originally born with, then by the resurrected Christ alive in God's Spirit to live forevermore trust Father to have done what he says he has done, yet many are still trying to do what he has, past tense already done for us via the cross, this includes the resurrected Christ for without the resurrected Christ we are to pitied of all people for without the resurrected Christ we are still in our sins 1Cor, 15

 

[Misty77]

I would say men are inclined to do wrong on purpose. But I would say that about all humanity, not just men, but women too. Just look at today's time, people do wrong all the time.

Also Paul straight forwardly says men are leaders and bases it off of Adam and Eve. Nowhere in the bible does it say men and women have equal society opportunities, at least not that I'm aware of. The evidence is there, you just seem to ignore it and say that it was only implied to the people he was sending the letter to. If this was true, then why even put the whole Book of Timothy in the bible if it isn't meant for us? Does that make any sense? Why would 1 Tim 2 be in the bible, if it wasn't meant for us. Also if women are supposed to be allowed to lead in the church just like men, why would Paul say differently? If the bible teaches men and women both can teach, why would Paul then teach something different? That doesn't make sense either. The word of God doesn't change based on your situation. I know you don't like hearing that, but it's what God says. There would be no point to 1 Tim 2 if it isn't meant for us to read and apply to our lives.

I never said ignore anything in the Bible, only to gain an accurate understanding. There is bountiful truth in every book of the Bible. The problem is when we fail to strip away our own culture's ideas of gender roles (in this particular case) when interpreting scripture. We are just so used to preachers interpreting the Bible like it was written by white guys in colonial America. Think about the trail of misunderstanding: Our preachers were taught at seminary form books written by other preachers who learn from preachers before them for generations. A lot of the ideas are so many times removed from the Bible. Make a mental note of all the Christianese that is part of our vernacular that isn't even found in scripture, if you are reticent to accept that fact. Most of it is wonderful truth, but just think about what happens if one of the original men of influence was wrong about something. It will have tainted the understanding of scripture for thousands, if not millions of believers. Our predecessors and we ourselves will accept error as truth if it is wrapped up in an evangelical package.

I have already addressed women preachers in a thread devoted to that subject. This is about women in general having positions of authority over men. And there is scriptural support for the subject at hand.

Personally I would say that only would happen if there isn't a man "up to par" in God's eyes. The reason I think this is because the times that a women takes over a man's position in the bible is because the man fails at his job. (Like Deborah leading the military for a time)

The Bible never calls Barak a failure or a wimp; that is another example of reading contemporary misunderstanding of gender roles into the Bible. Barak is listed in the Hall of Faith. Be careful in condemning one who God Himself exalts.

[SUP]Hebrews 11:32 [/SUP]And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— [SUP]33 [/SUP]who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, [SUP]34 [/SUP]quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.

 

[notuptome]

If this applies to the secular what are we to do with Hillary? Or Feinstein or Boxer? The Arabic countries do not allow women in any position of authority. How exactly has the rest of the world made out?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[phil112]

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

One in Christ.........And to be one in Christ what must we be? Christ is no longer on earth is He? So that means He is a spirit doesn't it? When we are told to walk in the spirit and not the flesh, it doesn't mean literally. You can't do that literally . It is physically impossible for a man to be a spirit while alive in a fleshly body.
We are exhorted to have the mind of Christ. Why? Because we can't be like Him physically until we are translated.
There is no gender in heaven, in the spirit world. There most certainly is in the fleshly world. For you to apply that verse to those of us that are physically walking in the flesh is a distortion of scripture.
How ridiculous it applying that scripture to us now? How many pregnant men have you seen lately.

As long as we live on this planet there will be man and woman.

 

[Misty77]

One in Christ.........And to be one in Christ what must we be? Christ is no longer on earth is He? So that means He is a spirit doesn't it? When we are told to walk in the spirit and not the flesh, it doesn't mean literally. You can't do that literally . It is physically impossible for a man to be a spirit while alive in a fleshly body.
We are exhorted to have the mind of Christ. Why? Because we can't be like Him physically until we are translated.
There is no gender in heaven, in the spirit world. There most certainly is in the fleshly world. For you to apply that verse to those of us that are physically walking in the flesh is a distortion of scripture.
How ridiculous it applying that scripture to us now? How many pregnant men have you seen lately.

As long as we live on this planet there will be man and woman.

Galatians was written to legalists (specifically the Judaizers), which is why it emphasizes grace so much. It isn't to say that there is no physical difference, but that we are are all equal heirs with God. No one needs to be Jewish before coming to Christ. The restrictions on women and slaves, especially the castrated or the uncircumcised, are lifted so that we can all partake of God's grace equally. Again, context is key.

 

[Praus]

I have a feeling that your post is very offensive to the german people.
At the moment they're more of a democracy than the US.

Perhaps I shall apologize to the German people for my past support of the Anne Frank House Museum in Amsterdam...

 

[tucksma]

Galatians was written to legalists (specifically the Judaizers), which is why it emphasizes grace so much. It isn't to say that there is no physical difference, but that we are are all equal heirs with God. No one needs to be Jewish before coming to Christ. The restrictions on women and slaves, especially the castrated or the uncircumcised, are lifted so that we can all partake of God's grace equally. Again, context is key.

The point he was trying to get at was that this verse isn't support for authority. This verse is saying what you must be before coming to christ which is nothing, for everyone is equal when coming to him. That doesn't have anything with authority.

Also I am not condemning barak at all, merely saying he slipped up, and Deborah took over. I by no means was condemning him, but in that specific situation, he wasn't "up to par" which made it so a women was aloud to take over.

Pasturing is included in authority which is why I keep bringing it up. Also I do understand what you are saying about our pastors getting it from there pastor and so on but Paul didn't get it from a Pastor, he got it from God. What my point was that you are saying men have no authority over women, but 1 Tim 2 is devoted to it. So to say that that whole book doesn't apply to us, would mean it shouldn't even be in the bible because it doesn't pertain to anyone other than these people. Clearly it was in the bible, so clearly it applies to us. There is no understanding to gain from 1 tim 2 if the point isn't to us. In fact if the bible teaches that men do have no authority over women as you say, then what Paul did was go against the bible in this letter.

 

[AmberGardner]

It should be translated as "WIFE" and "HUSBAND", not woman and man.

It should read:

1 Timothy 2:11 A WIFE should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a WIFE to teach or to assume authority over her HUSBAND; she must be quiet.


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...1332747373047.46138.1661930167&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...1332747373047.46138.1661930167&type=3&theater

 

[Misty77]

It should be translated as "WIFE" and "HUSBAND", not woman and man.

It should read:

1 Timothy 2:11 A WIFE should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a WIFE to teach or to assume authority over her HUSBAND; she must be quiet.


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...1332747373047.46138.1661930167&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...1332747373047.46138.1661930167&type=3&theater

Just adding to that, the word "quiet" (translated "silence" in KJV) means: description of the life of one who stays at home doing his own work, and does not officiously meddle with the affairs of others

In other words, it's not a New Testament gag-order.

 

[tucksma]

It should be translated as "WIFE" and "HUSBAND", not woman and man.

It should read:

1 Timothy 2:11 A WIFE should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a WIFE to teach or to assume authority over her HUSBAND; she must be quiet.


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...1332747373047.46138.1661930167&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...1332747373047.46138.1661930167&type=3&theater

[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: bVerse"]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8F8DA"]Mat 5:28
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8F8DA"]But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman G1135 to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


So should woman there be wife? It's the same word and according to you it should be wife.

My point here is that the word can sometimes mean wife, but many times does not. It gets turned into woman 129 times and wife 92 times. Also the first deffonition is a women of any age, and the second deffinition is wife.

1. 
   [*=left]a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow
   
   [*=left]a wife
   
   1. 
      [*=left]of a betrothed woman

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Same situation with the word man.

Definition:

1. 
   [*=left]with reference to sex
   
   1. 
      [*=left]of a male
      
      [*=left]of a husband
      
      [*=left]of a betrothed or future husband
   
   [*=left]with reference to age, and to distinguish an adult man from a boy
   
   [*=left]any male
   
   [*=left]used generically of a group of both men and women
   
   translated as man 156 x and husband 50x. Clearly it can mean either, but you can't say it "should" be translated that way.

[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD]Luk 1:27
[/TD]
[TD]To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The word man there is the same word as Timothy. It wouldn't make sense for it to be husband here because Marry and Joseph were not Husband and Wife yet.

Basically your point could be true, but it isn't probable, and you can't say rather it is or isn't. Unless of course you are a Greek scholar and Blue letter bible has it wrong.

 

[tucksma]

Just adding to that, the word "quiet" (translated "silence" in KJV) means: description of the life of one who stays at home doing his own work, and does not officiously meddle with the affairs of others

In other words, it's not a New Testament gag-order.

You're only using one definition. The other two are quietness and silence. Basically its the concept that women are supposed to learn according to the bible while men teach according to 1 Tim 2:12. No one here has said women are to do nothing but sit at home and mind their own business.