Attack of the Judaizers

[just-me]

There are two covenants, the old covenant and the new covenant. The old covenant is in the past tense, the new covenant is for today.
From: What’s the Difference Between the Old Covenant & New Covenant in the Bible? | The Overflow

Right......... The past (old) is physical, and the present (new) is spiritual as in the way Jesus taught in parables.

Galatians 4:24 (KJV)
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. (Hagar of the Old Testament)

Genesis 16:1 (KJV)
1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.

If one reads about God changing Sari’s name to Sarah, we can see that Sinai represents her previous condition of being barren (the old), and the name God gave her when He promised she would bare a child, represents the “new.”

Genesis 17:15-16 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarahshall her name be.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

8297=Sarai= dominative, and maintainer, saw-rah-*ee. “Yad” is the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] letter in the Hebrew alphabet, pronounced “*ee.” It represents a hard working person that gives, and maintains recourses, describing “Sarai” as a good wife, mindful of Abram’s needs. The priority of “works.”

8283=Sarah=to prevail, to be strong and free, a mistress, as a lady princess, a queen, saw-rah. If you will notice, the “*ee” no longer applies to the new name that God gave to Sarah. “**Hey” is the 5[SUP]th[/SUP] letter in the Hebrew alphabet, pronounced “**ah” (as in halleluiah). It represents revelation of being given something obvious, as in this case a “blessing” as the priority.

Even though the condition of Abraham’s wife Sarah changed from her original state to becoming fertile, she still was the same person representing the old, and the new.

 

[BradC]

If the law is so darn important for man to have and keep, why did God wait so long before He gave it? He gave it to Moses when the Israelites, who He had delivered from the bondage of Egypt, were living in all kinds of sin for crying out loud. Was the law suppose to make them holy? Did it? Did it get them into the promised land? NO, NO, & NO! The entire generation that came out of Egypt died in the wilderness with the exception of Joshua and Caleb, including Moses and Aaron because they had smote the rock twice at the waters of Meribah and disobeyed the voice of God (Numbers 20:11), which had nothing to do with the law.

If the law was so important to Jesus you would think that Christ would have exhorted the disciples at the last Passover meal to make sure they kept it, but he did not in (Matt 26, Mark 14, Luke 22 & John 13). He then went to the Mount of Olives but he only prayed and bore that incredible cup, but no mention of keeping the law. Then he was betrayed and taken to the high priest.

At that time when Jesus was to be betrayed and crucified the disciples were not talking about the law. When Pentecost finally had come they were not occupied with the law. When God was adding to the church they were not teaching those things contained in the law. They continued steadfast in the apostle's doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread concerning Christ (Acts 2:42). They were occupied with the new covenant and the new commandment of loving one another as Christ had loved them. They were filled with the Spirit because they had received and been baptized in and by one Holy Spirit.

 

[Grandpa]

So because one cannot keep the Law perfectly, one should not even try? One should go around profaning the name of God at every opportunity? Killing indiscrimately? Whoring around? Lying and stealing? Help me out here, explain why this is or is not so.

Galatians 3:1-14
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? [SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

I bolded the parts that pertain to your questions. That seems pretty simple and straight forward to me. I suppose your results may vary...

 

[Hoffco]

Heb.13:20 summarizs the book, "...through the blood of the everlasting covenant,.." everlasting is also eternal. The new cov. in Jesus' blood is erternal in it's scope. Including all the chosen children of God, of all times, they, we, are all saved by the blood of Jesus! We should think of God's eternal plan of salvation, overriding all the covenants in the Bible, I call it, God's eternal covenant of Grace, this, is the THEME of the Bible. All the elect ones are saved by GRACE, never by works. God's eternal cov. of GRACE is best seen in Rom.8:29-30 , "foreknew...predestined..called...justified... glorified.." all by GRACE, not by works. God has always made a way to "escape" sin and to walk in holiness according to the given laws of that age. We have always had laws to obey and a sacrifice to forgive our trespasses. These have been modified by God with each age of GRACE. The old cov. was a wonderful blessing and they kept it ,as perfectly as they could and were forgivened by the blood of Jesus, (behind the animal sacrifice, was Jesus
blood, eternally coving sin). Hoffco

 

[Elin]

he was saying you're throwing your pearls to swine.

pearls are found in jewelry boxes
pigs are found in the mud

Thanks, would you like to be my interpreter?

I could use one, 'cause I thought he was saying that he was muddying the glory of Christ, my treasure.

 

[danschance]

If the law is so darn important for man to have and keep, why did God wait so long before He gave it? He gave it to Moses when the Israelites, who He had delivered from the bondage of Egypt, were living in all kinds of sin for crying out loud. Was the law suppose to make them holy? Did it? Did it get them into the promised land? NO, NO, & NO! The entire generation that came out of Egypt died in the wilderness with the exception of Joshua and Caleb, including Moses and Aaron because they had smote the rock twice at the waters of Meribah and disobeyed the voice of God (Numbers 20:11), which had nothing to do with the law.

If the law was so important to Jesus you would think that Christ would have exhorted the disciples at the last Passover meal to make sure they kept it, but he did not in (Matt 26, Mark 14, Luke 22 & John 13). He then went to the Mount of Olives but he only prayed and bore that incredible cup, but no mention of keeping the law. Then he was betrayed and taken to the high priest.

At that time when Jesus was to be betrayed and crucified the disciples were not talking about the law. When Pentecost finally had come they were not occupied with the law. When God was adding to the church they were not teaching those things contained in the law. They continued steadfast in the apostle's doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread concerning Christ (Acts 2:42). They were occupied with the new covenant and the new commandment of loving one another as Christ had loved them. They were filled with the Spirit because they had received and been baptized in and by one Holy Spirit.

We have a great example in scripture where the Apostles were confronted with the question of should the fentiles obey parts of the Mosaic law.

4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. 5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” Acts 15

So they was much debate about this. just like we have in this thread. Should the gentile believers be circumcised? Should they observe the laws of Moses or not? This is what this thread is about also. Should Christians obey the laws of Moses? Well we no longer have to guess at this as Peter got up and gave us his official answer as an apostle.

10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” Acts 15

So the case is shut by Peter. We no longer have to wonder if Christians should obey the laws of Moses--we don't.

 

[Elin]

There is more than 2 commandments that Christ gave.

Relevance?

Did he say that on the others "hang all the Law on the Prophets"?

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid (say) you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

While the one reading the scroll (we call it OT), they literally sat in a seat called "Moses' seat".

That's not what Jesus said.

Read it again.

While sitting in Moses' seat, no commentary was allowed, only the literal reading of the Torah and Tanakh.

Jesus is not talking about reading the scroll down at the synagogue.

He was talking about the teachers of the law and the Pharisees as the authorized successors of Moses
as teachers of the law, which is why he said "So you must obey them and do everything they tell you."
(Mt 23:2)

at this very moment He commanded them and us TO DO ALL THAT IS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.

No, he commanded them to obey the teaching of the Pharisees and teachers of the law because they were the authorized successors of Moses as teachers.

He was upholding their authority as teachers of the law.

 

[Rockbysea]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

How can you get more contrary to doctrine, divisive and offensive toward fellow believers than a doctrine of damnation to all believers who do not keep the Sabbath? I have seen nothing here more offensive and contrary to doctrine than that. So who do you think should be avoided here?

Or is this the new “I love you brother but you’re going to burn in the fires of hell for not keeping the Sabbath” doctrine.

 

[LT]

Thanks, would you like to be my interpreter?

I could use one, 'cause I thought he was saying that he was muddying the glory of Christ, my treasure.

sure, anytime!

 

[Elin]

I don't have to say anything about it. How about if you explain this...

Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

Explain to me how we can still see the sky and stamp our feet on the earth and the Law is done away?

Mt 5:18 - "until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished."

Lk 21:33 - "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

When we compare Scripture with Scripture, we see that as long as heaven and earth exist, there will be no passing away of the law unless it is fulfilled.

The Levitical laws have been fulfilled and, therefore, are set aside (Heb 7:12, 18-19).

The promise of Ps 110:4 has been fulfilled and, therefore, the Levitical priesthood has been set aside (Heb 7:11-12, 17, 21).

The new covenant has been fulfilled (inaugurated--Lk 22:20), therefore, the old (Siniatic) covenant is obsolete (Heb 8:13).

It's not complicated. It is simply a matter of belief in the NT word of God.

 

[LT]

Mt 5:18 - "until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished."

Lk 21:33 - "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

When we compare Scripture with Scripture, we see that as long as heaven and earth exist, there will be no passing away of the law unless it is fulfilled.

The Levitical laws have been fulfilled and, therefore, are set aside (Heb 7:12, 18-19).

The promise of Ps 110:4 has been fulfilled and, therefore, the Levitical priesthood has been set aside (Heb 7:11-12, 17, 21).

The new covenant has been fulfilled (inaugurated--Lk 22:20), therefore, the old (Siniatic) covenant is obsolete (Heb 8:13).

It's not complicated. It is simply a matter of belief in the NT word of God.

or it could also mean that none of the Law will be lost, like as in God preserves His Word.
I still don't see how people translate these verses to mean that the ceremonial laws should be followed by Gentiles.

 

[Elin]

Technically speaking, I think we should avoid the use of Judaizer as a coverall word for folks who point us to trust in the shadows. Isn't Judaizer something more specific, related to circumcision? Or does the scope of the term cover all things related to trusting in the shadows?

Trying to get Gentiles to live like Jews is called Judaizing by Paul in Gal 2:14, whether it be food laws, circumcision, purification laws, etc., etc., etc.

 

[john832]

Mt 5:18 - "until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished."

Lk 21:33 - "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

When we compare Scripture with Scripture, we see that as long as heaven and earth exist, there will be no passing away of the law unless it is fulfilled.

The Levitical laws have been fulfilled and, therefore, are set aside (Heb 7:12, 18-19).

The promise of Ps 110:4 has been fulfilled and, therefore, the Levitical priesthood has been set aside (Heb 7:11-12, 17, 21).

The new covenant has been fulfilled (inaugurated--Lk 22:20), therefore, the old (Siniatic) covenant is obsolete (Heb 8:13).

It's not complicated. It is simply a matter of belief in the NT word of God.

Till ALL be fulfilled. When did Christ return, I must have missed it.

 

[Angela53510]

I just found this verse by accident when I typed a wrong number. I think I will post it on all these threads demanding we must do works of the law.

"For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." Romans 3:28

It doesn't get much clearer than this!

 

[phil112]

Thanks, would you like to be my interpreter?

I could use one, 'cause I thought he was saying that he was muddying the glory of Christ, my treasure.

I gotta admit, Elin, you and LT got a chuckle out of me on this.

 

[Hoffco]

Lol, This is good spiritual humility on Elins part. And. in reality, we all are helping each other "intrepret". In reality God has given us a very, very difficult book to interpret. God did it on purpose; to confuse the lost and instruct the saved. The BOOK is given only for the children, and we do have to be careful of giving the childrens food to the dogs, the repropates, who will never understand it , BUT, WE are not the ones who know who the elect and the reprobates are, especially in a chat room; So , I will lean to giving my perals to who ever will read. And God will always use it all to His glory, by saving or damning. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Elin]

Here comes the crunch to what the difference is between the old and the new. As we read the following, in context the italicized, underlined word covenant has been added to the text and is NOT in the original writing of Hebrews. It is referring to the temple.

Hebrews 8:5 (KJV)
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, (1242) which was established upon better promises.
7 For if the first has been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 But God found fault with the people and said:

"The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers. . .
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. . ."

Then in vv. 10-12 follows from Jeremiah 31:32-34 the remainder of the promise of a new covenant.

13 By calling this "new," he has made the first obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hebrews 9:1-4 (KJV)

1 So then the first also had ordinances of service and an earthly sanctuary (Temple).
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first (room) wherein was the candlestick, and the table and the showbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covednant;

7 For if that first covenant (referring to the man made temple) had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews 8:13 (KJV)
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, (referring to the man made temple) he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9:1-4 (KJV)
1 Then verily the first covenant (referring to the man made temple) had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant (1242) overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; (1242)

Staggering. . .absolutely staggering!

You would have us believe that after stating the subject of "covenant" in v. 6,
the remainder of the thought in v. 7 references the "man made temple."

And you would have us believe that after all that discussion of "covenant" from Jer 31:31-32 in vv. 8-12,
his conclusion in v. 13 references the "man made temple"?

"Temple" does not enter the discussion until Heb 9:1, as an appointment to the covenant.

I am speechless. . .such abuse of the plain NT word of God. . .and all for the sake of Judaizing.

The only difference between the old and the new is that we are now the temple which have the same ordinances as the old, but in the Spirit rather than the physical.

Hebrews 8:7
7 For if that first temple had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews 8:13 (KJV)
13 In that he saith, A new temple he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9:1-4 (KJV)
1 Then verily the first temple had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

There was and is only one “covenant” that was ordained from the beginning. The “NEW” is within us, instead of us being inside the “OLD.” The "OLD" is being under it, the "NEW" is inward, yet the same in "allegory," and similarity.

There is ONE Covenant for all mankind, both old and new. The only difference is the location of the temple.

Someone else, please take it from here.

And pass the vapors. . .I'm laid out flat on the floor.

< Run, Forest, run! >

 

[Hoffco]

I have to build a chicken pen this morning . Hoping to raise laying hens and meat hens, It takes an investment to get going and may never pay for it self; except in the pleasure and relaxation I get in doing it. then we have to go food shopping for our church meal for tomorrow. thid is a big joy to me. Our sister in law will be going to Suadia Arabia next week to work in a govern hospital. Pray that no one bombs them. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

just=me, you are way off the wall; covenant doesn't mean the temple. But , when the temple was destroyed, this made it impossible for the mosic cov. to be observed any more. please remember folks, the new cov. was made with the houses of Judah and Israel and it will be "fulfilled" with them, as a nation, when Jesus returns. Hoffco

 

[phil112]

................................Someone else, please take it from here.

And pass the vapors. . .I'm laid out flat on the floor.

< Run, Forest, run! >

I warned ya 'bout staying away from mud puddles with your oysters.