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T
My main issue isn't so much with self defesne, becasue to be honest I haven't studied that enough. I have what I beleive now, but maybe It'll change.
My issue is with the military, that's why I joined the forum. The military is against God. The leader of the military (in the US) is Obama right? Clearly he isn't God. Clearly he isn't fighting to better God. This is where the line of "follow authority unless it goes against God" comes in. The military does murder. It's planned killing. The military plans a way to kill, which is preempted murder. If our leader was God, it'd be different, but it isn't.
On self defense I still hold that we are to not kill.
Interesting story: A member of my church was robbed one time while she was in her room with her child. She told the robber to take a seat and taught him the truth on the spot after he threatened to kill them.
I'm not saying that will always work obviously, but that self defense is not the way to go.
She protected them, without killing anyone, and leaned on God to open the heart of the robber.
My issue is with the military, that's why I joined the forum. The military is against God. The leader of the military (in the US) is Obama right? Clearly he isn't God. Clearly he isn't fighting to better God. This is where the line of "follow authority unless it goes against God" comes in. The military does murder. It's planned killing. The military plans a way to kill, which is preempted murder. If our leader was God, it'd be different, but it isn't.
On self defense I still hold that we are to not kill.
Interesting story: A member of my church was robbed one time while she was in her room with her child. She told the robber to take a seat and taught him the truth on the spot after he threatened to kill them.
I'm not saying that will always work obviously, but that self defense is not the way to go.
She protected them, without killing anyone, and leaned on God to open the heart of the robber.
E
Similar to what Tucksma said, I don't think it is necessarily wrong to have a gun. I don't think it is necessarily wrong to have anything. That would be legalism.
What it comes down to is your perception of that item and your intentions with it.
The key focus, I will say for the third time, in this situation, is that you could have a bias because of it.
What it comes down to is your perception of that item and your intentions with it.
The key focus, I will say for the third time, in this situation, is that you could have a bias because of it.
Justme who wins a fight when two men jumps on eachother? Always hte righteous one? Or always the one who is in the right? When they wacked Paul and Jesus in the mouth for the words they spoke, why did they not hit back?
This is whu women do not understand these things.... I been in a few fights, and I know EXACTLY why I won some and lost some. fighting ability has NOTHING to do with it. God has NOTHING to do with it. Size and strength has NOTHING to do with it.
Let me tell you who wins the fight..... The one with the MOST EVIL SPIRIT in him wins. If you know not this, you know NOTHING.
Look at the Japanese kamakatsi pilots. they were not filled with the Holy spirit to give them courage, it was the destroyer and murderer that gave them courage. SATAN! Look at the suicide bombers, it is SATAN that promise them many wives in HEAVEN and they believe him. Look at David who was a shepard boy, then the next moment he killed a giant. And many would believe it was God's doing. But I thought God says He gives life and He makes dead! Was David god to make dead?
One more thing, if the Spirit of God made Samson kill 1000 men with the jaw bone of an ass, then why did the Spirit of God now decide to SAVE THE GENTILE, and not KILL them no more? That means God changed, from a Gentile killer to a Gentile saviour. How can Moses change God's mind? And GOD REPENT? Can God REPENT?
Nope some things in the Old Testament is NOT GOD.... If you want to say Jesus first killed Gentiles or unbelievers, then you may believe it, I DO NOT. Jesus says that SATAN is the murderer from the BEGINNING.... Form the moment Satan had Cain kill Abel, to the last murder today, SATAN did this not GOD.
The VERY same people and generation of DAVID and Israel, also killed the prophets? Jesus REBUKED them and said YOU THAT KILLED ALL THE PROPHETS.... it was the MURDERING nature of the ISRAELITES that did the killing, THEY DID NOT KNOW GOD.
Like MANY false teachers right here on CC would say God called them to be pastor, but they preach lies, so did God give them lies to preach? Know the Word of God, Know Jesus and you will know the Father.... Anyway Jesus said it plainly.... I say not an eye for an eye, but turn the other cheek... Shooting back is NOT turning the other cheek...
This is whu women do not understand these things.... I been in a few fights, and I know EXACTLY why I won some and lost some. fighting ability has NOTHING to do with it. God has NOTHING to do with it. Size and strength has NOTHING to do with it.
Let me tell you who wins the fight..... The one with the MOST EVIL SPIRIT in him wins. If you know not this, you know NOTHING.
Look at the Japanese kamakatsi pilots. they were not filled with the Holy spirit to give them courage, it was the destroyer and murderer that gave them courage. SATAN! Look at the suicide bombers, it is SATAN that promise them many wives in HEAVEN and they believe him. Look at David who was a shepard boy, then the next moment he killed a giant. And many would believe it was God's doing. But I thought God says He gives life and He makes dead! Was David god to make dead?
One more thing, if the Spirit of God made Samson kill 1000 men with the jaw bone of an ass, then why did the Spirit of God now decide to SAVE THE GENTILE, and not KILL them no more? That means God changed, from a Gentile killer to a Gentile saviour. How can Moses change God's mind? And GOD REPENT? Can God REPENT?
Nope some things in the Old Testament is NOT GOD.... If you want to say Jesus first killed Gentiles or unbelievers, then you may believe it, I DO NOT. Jesus says that SATAN is the murderer from the BEGINNING.... Form the moment Satan had Cain kill Abel, to the last murder today, SATAN did this not GOD.
The VERY same people and generation of DAVID and Israel, also killed the prophets? Jesus REBUKED them and said YOU THAT KILLED ALL THE PROPHETS.... it was the MURDERING nature of the ISRAELITES that did the killing, THEY DID NOT KNOW GOD.
Like MANY false teachers right here on CC would say God called them to be pastor, but they preach lies, so did God give them lies to preach? Know the Word of God, Know Jesus and you will know the Father.... Anyway Jesus said it plainly.... I say not an eye for an eye, but turn the other cheek... Shooting back is NOT turning the other cheek...
L
Amen. "Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. [SUP]18 [/SUP]If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”says the Lord. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." Rom. 12
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." Rom. 12
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T
The issue with beleivers these days is that they are scared to die. That's why we feel we need to shoot back, and defend ourselves. If you are a believer, why be scared to die? I'm not saying look foward to death, but the only reason I want to stay alive is to bring more people to God while I'm in this life. Nothing else matters. So if i die, well I die. That's fine. Being afraid of death and fighting back is either not trusting God, or not trusting that you have truly been saved.
L
From A Declaration to Charles II, 1660, includes what is considered the seminal statement of the Quaker peace witness:
We utterly deny all outward wars and strife and fightings with outward weapons, for any end or under any pretence whatsoever. And this is our testimony to the whole world. The spirit of Christ, by which we are guided, is not changeable, so as once to command us from a thing as evil and again to move unto it; and we do certainly know, and so testify to the world, that the spirit of Christ, which leads us into all Truth, will never move us to fight and war against any man with outward weapons, neither for the kingdom of Christ, nor for the kingdoms of this world.
D.L. Moody: "There has never been a time in my life when I felt that I could take a gun and shoot down a fellow being. In this respect I am a Quaker."
We utterly deny all outward wars and strife and fightings with outward weapons, for any end or under any pretence whatsoever. And this is our testimony to the whole world. The spirit of Christ, by which we are guided, is not changeable, so as once to command us from a thing as evil and again to move unto it; and we do certainly know, and so testify to the world, that the spirit of Christ, which leads us into all Truth, will never move us to fight and war against any man with outward weapons, neither for the kingdom of Christ, nor for the kingdoms of this world.
D.L. Moody: "There has never been a time in my life when I felt that I could take a gun and shoot down a fellow being. In this respect I am a Quaker."
L
[h=1]Pentecostal Pacifism[/h] “From the very beginning, the movement has been characterized by Quaker principles. The laws of the Kingdom, laid down by our elder brother, Jesus Christ, in His Sermon on the Mount, have been unqualifiedly adopted, consequently the movement has found itself opposed to the spilling of the blood of any man…”
THEREFORE we, as a body of Christians, while purposing to fulfill all the obligations of loyal citizenship, are nevertheless constrained to declare we cannot conscientiously participate in war and armed resistance which involves the actual destruction of human life, since this is contrary to our view of the clear teachings of the inspired Word of God, which is the sole basis of our faith–Assemblies of God, 1917
THEREFORE we, as a body of Christians, while purposing to fulfill all the obligations of loyal citizenship, are nevertheless constrained to declare we cannot conscientiously participate in war and armed resistance which involves the actual destruction of human life, since this is contrary to our view of the clear teachings of the inspired Word of God, which is the sole basis of our faith–Assemblies of God, 1917
B
Exactly!! It is the purpose & intention of war that makes it justifiable in the eyes of God. We can say the same for the wars fought by King David, who was chosen by God to be King. We would have no United States of America if the Civil War was never fought. In many instances Satan will provoke nations to start wars, thus forcing the Lord to combat the evil. A perfect example of this is WW1, WW11, the wars against Israel in 1948, 1967 & 1971. And the U.S. has played an important role over the decades protecting Israel and playing world cop. God doesn't like wars but He knows it is necessary at times to combat & control evil. And yet!! the greatest wars ever, will start in our lifetime: a 3-prong attack ending with Armaggedon, because Satan hate God's chosen people and will provoke a nuclear holocaust that will kill half of the earth's inhabitants before Jesus put a stop to it
I agree. But you said, “It is obvious that people...were sanctioned to murder in OT times.”
You are saying that people (the Israelites) were sanctioned by God to murder in the OT times. If you say God sanctioned murder then it’s the same as saying God is a murderer. You do understand that if I’m a leader and I order (sanction/authorize) people to commit murder then I’m guilty of murder and the same applies to God.
Their meanings are not close at all. One is lawful and the other is unlawful. That’s like saying innocence and guilt are close in meaning when they are the opposite.
How can you say on one hand “God cannot be guilty of murder” and in the same breath say He sanctioned (authorized/ordered) murder because the group included “pregnant women and children”? Why take an action that is “usually associated with the word ‘murder’” and apply that to what God sanctions if “God cannot be guilty of murder”?
You are saying that people (the Israelites) were sanctioned by God to murder in the OT times. If you say God sanctioned murder then it’s the same as saying God is a murderer. You do understand that if I’m a leader and I order (sanction/authorize) people to commit murder then I’m guilty of murder and the same applies to God.
Their meanings are not close at all. One is lawful and the other is unlawful. That’s like saying innocence and guilt are close in meaning when they are the opposite.
How can you say on one hand “God cannot be guilty of murder” and in the same breath say He sanctioned (authorized/ordered) murder because the group included “pregnant women and children”? Why take an action that is “usually associated with the word ‘murder’” and apply that to what God sanctions if “God cannot be guilty of murder”?
T
It's the word "guilty" that is key. God can murder. God can steal. God can do ANYTHING. No matter what he does it is not a sin. The reason is because God is the creator of righteous/unrighteous and he based what is righteous off himself. No matter what he does it is righteous. God will always be judged innocent of murder, even if he does it because it wasn't a sin. God can do whatever he wants, and it is righteous no matter what.
That's why when he sanctioned Israelite to murder, it wasn't a sin, because they did it under God's command so it was righteousness. If we were to do the same, without God's command, it would be unrighteous and sinful.
That's why when he sanctioned Israelite to murder, it wasn't a sin, because they did it under God's command so it was righteousness. If we were to do the same, without God's command, it would be unrighteous and sinful.
E
I've decided to leave the military. The Air Force is cutting 20-something % of its manning in the next 5 years. I do not qualify for the current program to get out under the voluntary separation program but I will if they do another program when I rank up in a few months.
I could also get out through the conscientious objector program. I went to the office to talk to them about it but they apparently have never had anyone who wanted to get out as a CO. So they didn't know much besides that I can submit the application to them.
I'm not really certain which one I should do yet or which one will take longer.
I could also get out through the conscientious objector program. I went to the office to talk to them about it but they apparently have never had anyone who wanted to get out as a CO. So they didn't know much besides that I can submit the application to them.
I'm not really certain which one I should do yet or which one will take longer.
E
It's changed a lot. I've surprised that a lot of the vets I talk to who served 10, 20 years ago think that things are still the same. Stuff has changed a lot in even the 2 years that I have served. Not to mention the long gap between some of the old wars and now.
There are two different CO programs. One for those who don't believe they should serve at all and one for those who don't want to carry a gun.
There are two different CO programs. One for those who don't believe they should serve at all and one for those who don't want to carry a gun.
L
Re: "What about the wars commanded by Yahweh in the Torah?"
Do you see Yahweh commanding any wars today? Are you going to advocate that wars be carried out as Yahweh commanded?, i.e. the herem: the killing of every man, woman, and child?
If you are not going to obey Yahweh's instructions in the Old Testament, why not?
Do you see Yahweh commanding any wars today? Are you going to advocate that wars be carried out as Yahweh commanded?, i.e. the herem: the killing of every man, woman, and child?
If you are not going to obey Yahweh's instructions in the Old Testament, why not?
L
On Joshua:
"...nowhere in Scripture is Joshua’s conquest intended to be a repeated event. There is nothing in the Bible that appeals to the conquest as justification to wage war or execute violence. Nothing. The conquest, like the flood and the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah, was a one time non-repeatable event whereby God judged a particularly wicked people. This is why Christians cannot appeal to the conquest to justify using violence today. This would be like burning a city to the ground because God once did it to Sodom and Gomorrah (something James and John tried to do and were rebuked for in Luke 9). Some things happen in the Bible that weren’t meant to be repeated."--Dr. Preston Sprinkle, Eternity Bible College (Francis Chan)
"...nowhere in Scripture is Joshua’s conquest intended to be a repeated event. There is nothing in the Bible that appeals to the conquest as justification to wage war or execute violence. Nothing. The conquest, like the flood and the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah, was a one time non-repeatable event whereby God judged a particularly wicked people. This is why Christians cannot appeal to the conquest to justify using violence today. This would be like burning a city to the ground because God once did it to Sodom and Gomorrah (something James and John tried to do and were rebuked for in Luke 9). Some things happen in the Bible that weren’t meant to be repeated."--Dr. Preston Sprinkle, Eternity Bible College (Francis Chan)