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Woman should not teach or assume authority over men (applies to secular????)
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didymos
Guest
Try fulfilling God's justice!!
"He has told you, O man, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?" Micah 6:8
History Lesson
William Wilberforce was a Member of Parliament in Britain who became an evangelical Christian in 1785. He took on the fight against slavery in the British Empire when he saw the scars from the chains, and the beatings on the backs of slaves. He became the leader of the abolition movement, and fought for 26 years to end slavery by an Act of Parliament in 1806 which abolished slavery in the British Empire, but not slavery itself. He continued to fight against total abolition of slavery, and the Act was passed in 1833, only 3 days before he died. He did it because he was convinced of the importance of religion and morality. And that if Christians did not fight for the "least of these," then no one would.
"And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’" Matt 25:40
I have a Christian friend from Jamaica, and Wilberforce is hailed as a hero there! The British freed slaves throughout the vast British Empire, long before the Americans saw it as a problem.
I have stayed off of this thread, because I am so sick and tired of the legalistic and literalistic interpretations of the Bible, which put women in "roles" that God did not ordain, but rather Satan and sin. Christ came to set us free and make us equal in the Lord.
THIS is the definitive proof text when it comes to men and women, ethnicities and slavery!
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28.
Bad enough that a wrong interpretation of two disputed texts places women in bondage to men. But to even suggest for a moment that God supports slavery, is heresy of the worst sort!!
I only wish some that some of the posters on this thread, had an opportunity to have their freedom lost, not because of anything they have done, but because they were captured, beaten and chained by slavers! You might change your tune on the value of slavery to God. And to say it is Biblical is the most horrific statement I have heard in all my time in multiple Christian forums.
No wonder fundamentalist Christians are the laughing stock of the world, and the gospel is being mocked! This results in the Good News of Jesus Christ not being spread to all the ends of the earth. You have shamed the name of Christ, and you will pay for it on Judgment Day!
For further reading, try Slaves, Women and Homosexuals by William Webb. It not only shows how slaves and women should be free Biblically, but also the Biblical Case against homosexuality.
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tucksma
Guest
I didn't say women should not have these rights, rather it wasn't the responsibility of Christian men to do it. To change the law is to tell the whole nation to be just, which isn't what we are called to do. We, the believers, are called to be just. So the individual believer should not have beaten his wife as well as all the other terrible things many did. They were not called to make their nation just. See the difference? Also Galation 3: 28 is specifically talking about salvation through Christ. Basically every race and sex can achieve salvation. God actually supported slavery as you can see in the bible. He DID NOT support slavery in how almost every nation ended up doing it though. He supported in like this. If I owed you money, and couldn't pay it off, I became your slave for a time. You provided me food, clothing, a place to sleep and I gave you work. At the end of our agreement, I would be set free and have no debt. I was treated like a person. I was basically a worker and you were my boss, the only difference is payment. A worker is paid in money, a slave in the essentials. In that aspect God supported slavery. In the way that Americans, and every country I do know of did it, no. That's what I meant.
Also women are not to be in bondage to men just be submissive to them. Its not just two verses that give this concept, rather MANY examples in the OT, and multiple sections in the NT. Paul is the only one to straight forward say it, but you can see it in example throughout all of scripture. Submissive doesn't make them worthless. If you actually paid attention to what I've been saying about women, you'd see that I am saying they deserve a ton of respect. There is an order though that God has for the world. The word is clear that women are to be submissive and men to lead. They are equal in importance it God, but equal does not mean equal opportunity.
The slavery ended in the country you mentioned was a good thing, but here's my question for you. How many people did he bring to the waters of salvation through this act? In the end the slave, or now free person will die. Rather slave, or free, or jew, or greek they will all die. What is important is their spiritual health. Do they have faith? Freeing them of slavery doesn't give them faith. Bringing them the word gives them faith. He prevented physical pain, but did nothing for their spirit, and therefore bore no fruit. Look at it over a longer period of time. Sure for the next 50 years slave X who is now free won't feel pain of being beaten, but in a 1000 years the now freed slave is still in the same situation he was if he stayed a slave. Now what if that man you talked about preached to this slave instead. Slave X is still beaten for 50 years, but after judgement is with Christ and their is no pain anymore. Which is better?
The word of the bible doesn't change, people change. The word of God is rather clear of the role of the women and the role of the man both through paul's teachings, through the examples in the OT, and through teachings of Jesus. You may not like to hear it, but truth is truth.
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tucksma
Guest
We are not condemning these women in the aspect that I think these women will go to hell. I don't at all. They are going against God's teachings though. It is just as wrong as any other form of going against God's teachings. Fine me a verse that says women can pastor as I will be the first to change my belief.Really, all this talk just proves my point. Women are used by God today. Sure, it's not how you see it biblically. Fine!
Like I told, Philly, it's silly to play God.
People make mistakes all the time, 100s of women pastors quite possibly prove that true, depending on if you believe that 1 Tim. 2:12, and, of course 1 Cor. 14 DOES speak of women who are WIVES of husbands, but, if you believe 1 Tim. 2:12 speaks of WIVES, too, who are CHILDBEARING, then, a woman who comes along and is used by God to PASTOR a church will make sense to you being DIFFERENT, an EXCEPTION to the rule of WHO is teaching and preaching authority over men.
Makes sense to me. I'm not going to go and condemn women for being pastors and teachers in churches because God's using them in that role NOW. Silly to fight God's CURRENT will for that person's life. Just silly, philly. So the bible says what it says to you. Good. Great. And, so what?Simple observation shows that MANY women today pastor churches and are producing GOOD FRUIT. Simple example? Sure, Joseph talking to his brothers who put him in a pit, sold him to be a slave, speaking of slave, since you want to talk that word on here, illogically, at that.
But, what did Joseph say, crying with his 12 brothers all huddled together with him as Joseph was 2nd in charge in Egypt at this time, "What you intended for evil God MADE OUT to be GOOD."
So. Be careful. Sure, Scripture says what it says, but, God, knows we humans are ALL imperFeCt and makes 'lemonade' out of the 'lemon' decisions of our life. Not being too sour, not to mention, dour, with you all, male chauvinists on here, I hope and pray
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tucksma
Guest
That's not my opinion. It's clear in the bible that slaves were used and supported by God, just not how we look at them. (explained in an earlier post) That's why if it was different slaves would have been okay.
Mark 10:42-25
And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
I haven't heard any of the men over here talking about serving their wives when they talk about their roles similar to Christ and the Church.
I am sorry Angela, even when you post scripture and point out to history, people here just give their personal opinions and are clearly unable to understand the point you're making.
It's clear they support slavery and injustice. Why on earth will they want to give respect to a woman?
Just seems to me that most of the men who do have such issues with women being in authority or women being in positions of equal pay as other men are those who have deep seated insecurities and low self esteem.
They are unable to compete in a free and open world devoid of gender in terms of workplace. (Since that is after all the topic of the thread)
Hence they go to internet forums and try to show everyone why they should be in authority and try to hide behind husband-wife roles in the Bible when they don't convince anyone.
Well. Too bad. It's Biblical.
Proverbs 12:24
The hand of the diligent will rule, while the slothful will be put to forced labor.
So diligent women, go ahead and be boss
And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
I haven't heard any of the men over here talking about serving their wives when they talk about their roles similar to Christ and the Church.
I am sorry Angela, even when you post scripture and point out to history, people here just give their personal opinions and are clearly unable to understand the point you're making.
It's clear they support slavery and injustice. Why on earth will they want to give respect to a woman?
Just seems to me that most of the men who do have such issues with women being in authority or women being in positions of equal pay as other men are those who have deep seated insecurities and low self esteem.
They are unable to compete in a free and open world devoid of gender in terms of workplace. (Since that is after all the topic of the thread)
Hence they go to internet forums and try to show everyone why they should be in authority and try to hide behind husband-wife roles in the Bible when they don't convince anyone.
Well. Too bad. It's Biblical.
Proverbs 12:24
The hand of the diligent will rule, while the slothful will be put to forced labor.
So diligent women, go ahead and be boss
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tucksma
Guest
Well the serving you wife is a different topic, at least how I look at it. That is on the topic of "love". Love is self sacrifice and serving. In that aspect both husband and wife are to do that to each other. The only reason I haven't said that is because it is on the subject of love, and this subject is about the roles of women.Mark 10:42-25
And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
I haven't heard any of the men over here talking about serving their wives when they talk about their roles similar to Christ and the Church.
I am sorry Angela, even when you post scripture and point out to history, people here just give their personal opinions and are clearly unable to understand the point you're making.
It's clear they support slavery and injustice. Why on earth will they want to give respect to a woman?
Just seems to me that most of the men who do have such issues with women being in authority or women being in positions of equal pay as other men are those who have deep seated insecurities and low self esteem.
They are unable to compete in a free and open world devoid of gender in terms of workplace. (Since that is after all the topic of the thread)
Hence they go to internet forums and try to show everyone why they should be in authority and try to hide behind husband-wife roles in the Bible when they don't convince anyone.
Well. Too bad. It's Biblical.
Proverbs 12:24
The hand of the diligent will rule, while the slothful will be put to forced labor.
So diligent women, go ahead and be boss
Also I haven't been saying that women are any less then men. They have a different role. Also I haven't supported different pays based on sex. I don't even think I've made a comment on women in the workplace at all. Clearly the bible does support slavery. Your proverbs verse even says so. "will be put to forced labor"
I don't support slavery in how it was done in America or any nations known to the world today (assuming you don't look at current Israel as old Israel). I explained what I meant by slavery and how it is biblical in a earlier post.
Her verses were explained, and her history was as well. I didn't ignore it, I explained it.
Women being the head of man is NOT biblical. Paul talks about that.
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tucksma
Guest
1 Corinthians 11:3 - But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
1 Corinthians 14:34 - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
[SUP]1 t[/SUP][SUP]im 2 : 9-15
9[/SUP] In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
[SUP]10[/SUP] But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
[SUP]11[/SUP] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
[SUP]12[/SUP] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
[SUP]13[/SUP] For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
[SUP]14[/SUP] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
[SUP]15[/SUP] Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Colossians 3:18 - Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
Ephesians 5: 22-33
[SUP]22[/SUP] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
[SUP]23[/SUP] For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
[SUP]24[/SUP] Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
[SUP]25[/SUP] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
[SUP]26[/SUP] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
[SUP]27[/SUP] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
[SUP]28[/SUP] So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
[SUP]29[/SUP] For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
[SUP]30[/SUP] For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
[SUP]31[/SUP] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
[SUP]32[/SUP] This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
[SUP]33[/SUP] Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife [see] that she reverence [her] husband.
[SUP]
Titus 2: 3-5
3[/SUP] The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
[SUP]4[/SUP] That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
[SUP]5[/SUP] [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
1 Corinthians 14:35 - And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
These are all verses that support my position. I AM NOT saying me control women. I am saying that men are the head, and women are to be submissive. The men are to respect the women VERY highly. Women are to make sure the men rule in submission to Christ. Men are also to serve their wives. Men are to love their wives like Christ loves them. They are equal in the respect to salvation as Galatians 3:28 says.
1 Corinthians 14:34 - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
[SUP]1 t[/SUP][SUP]im 2 : 9-15
9[/SUP] In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
[SUP]10[/SUP] But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
[SUP]11[/SUP] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
[SUP]12[/SUP] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
[SUP]13[/SUP] For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
[SUP]14[/SUP] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
[SUP]15[/SUP] Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Colossians 3:18 - Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
Ephesians 5: 22-33
[SUP]22[/SUP] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
[SUP]23[/SUP] For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
[SUP]24[/SUP] Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
[SUP]25[/SUP] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
[SUP]26[/SUP] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
[SUP]27[/SUP] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
[SUP]28[/SUP] So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
[SUP]29[/SUP] For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
[SUP]30[/SUP] For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
[SUP]31[/SUP] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
[SUP]32[/SUP] This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
[SUP]33[/SUP] Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife [see] that she reverence [her] husband.
[SUP]
Titus 2: 3-5
3[/SUP] The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
[SUP]4[/SUP] That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
[SUP]5[/SUP] [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
1 Corinthians 14:35 - And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
These are all verses that support my position. I AM NOT saying me control women. I am saying that men are the head, and women are to be submissive. The men are to respect the women VERY highly. Women are to make sure the men rule in submission to Christ. Men are also to serve their wives. Men are to love their wives like Christ loves them. They are equal in the respect to salvation as Galatians 3:28 says.
Mr. Tucksma. This goes against the Scripture.
James 2:14-18
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? [SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[SUP][a][/SUP] is that? [SUP]17 [/SUP]So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
And Mr. Tucksma, before you say that God doesn't care about others in the world, (He died for the world)
Matthew 5:44-45
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, [SUP]45 [/SUP]so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
How convenient that you preach that we shouldn't care about the physical health of others?
Tell us again why you must be leading us all
T
tucksma
Guest
Personally my opinion on equal pay are very situational. If a women is literally doing the exact same thing as a guy, and just as well, then yes they deserve equal pay. If their titles are the same, but they aren't doing as well for some reason then no they don't. Neither does a guy though who isn't doing as well. Pay shouldn't be based on gender. Now there are some jobs like physical labor jobs that I think pay should be based on how well you do your job. Typically a man will be better at physical labor jobs. That's just science. So in that type job it makes sense for men to get paid more, if they are more effective. But if a women is doing just as well as a man, then they should have equal pay.
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tucksma
Guest
First off rather what I say or do not say doesn't change the concept of men and authority.Mr. Tucksma. This goes against the Scripture.
James 2:14-18
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? [SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[SUP][a][/SUP] is that? [SUP]17 [/SUP]So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
And Mr. Tucksma, before you say that God doesn't care about others in the world, (He died for the world)
Matthew 5:44-45
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, [SUP]45 [/SUP]so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
How convenient that you preach that we shouldn't care about the physical health of others?
Tell us again why you must be leading us all
View attachment 69619
There is a HUGE difference between these two situations. One takes 5 minutes to do. Give the guy some food, a coat, some cash, and send him on his way. Changing laws, especially equality laws, can take a lifetime. In that lifetime spent making people equal, you are not doing anything for these people spiritually. In that aspect, there is not fruit being made. The only thing that separates the 4th seed and the 3rd in the parable of the sower is the 4th bares fruit. Clearly baring fruit is more important, so why waste our time working on equality when it is better to work on people's spiritual health, so they can enter the kingdom, where all equality problems will be fixed. I'm not saying these laws are bad! I'm not in support of women not having rights. All I was saying was that it wasn't the job of Good Christians to fix it like Misty said. They were called to be just, not fix the world's injustice.
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tucksma
Guest
Also with the unbelievers, that's the mercy of God. To some extent I do believe he cares less what happens to them, then what happens to a believer. All in all I think he cares little to what happens to us physically when compared to how much he cares about what happens to us spiritually. Because of this working on laws that help prevent physical pain is reallllllly a waste of time because what you should be doing instead is working on people's spiritual health.Mr. Tucksma. This goes against the Scripture.
James 2:14-18
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? [SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[SUP][a][/SUP] is that? [SUP]17 [/SUP]So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
And Mr. Tucksma, before you say that God doesn't care about others in the world, (He died for the world)
Matthew 5:44-45
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, [SUP]45 [/SUP]so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
How convenient that you preach that we shouldn't care about the physical health of others?
Tell us again why you must be leading us all
View attachment 69619
Verses about the responsibilities and conduct in church and roles of a husband and wife. They are equal in Christ.
It does not apply to a secular situation which is what this thread is about.
And according to most of the Laws of different countries.
If you don't like the idea of women working and earning money and being bosses, you can go live in the woods ( or any such country which doesn't support women's rights. I think Afghanistan is one such country)
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tucksma
Guest
It's not that we shouldn't care, rather that we shouldn't spend our lives worrying about it, which changing equality laws does. If you can ease someone's physical pain and help them spiritually do it! But do not replace helping people spiritually with helping physically, which is what spending your life changing equality laws would do.
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tucksma
Guest
Did you not even read my post about equal pay?
I have not once said that men are over women in the workplace. You make assumptions about me which are not true.
T
tucksma
Guest
"Personally my opinion on equal pay are very situational. If a women is literally doing the exact same thing as a guy, and just as well, then yes they deserve equal pay. If their titles are the same, but they aren't doing as well for some reason then no they don't. Neither does a guy though who isn't doing as well. Pay shouldn't be based on gender. Now there are some jobs like physical labor jobs that I think pay should be based on how well you do your job. Typically a man will be better at physical labor jobs. That's just science. So in that type job it makes sense for men to get paid more, if they are more effective. But if a women is doing just as well as a man, then they should have equal pay."
^^ me in an earlier post.
^^ me in an earlier post.
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tucksma
Guest
Also I haven't said that women shouldn't have these rights. I am only saying it is not the good christian's job to fix the world's injustice.
Also bearing fruit is also a Good Work. I would say that is a better one too because you are then adding to the body. All I'm saying is making you life focus on making people equal is not Christ like. Christ didn't make that his focus, it was just how he acted. Christ's focus was spread his name, and his biggest command was to spread the gospel (he tells people to do it over and over and over).
Learn what I'm saying before you attack me.
Also bearing fruit is also a Good Work. I would say that is a better one too because you are then adding to the body. All I'm saying is making you life focus on making people equal is not Christ like. Christ didn't make that his focus, it was just how he acted. Christ's focus was spread his name, and his biggest command was to spread the gospel (he tells people to do it over and over and over).
Learn what I'm saying before you attack me.