No... you do not understand sin. Murder, stealing, lying etc... is the act of sinning. God cannot commit acts of sin because it's the opposite of His nature which is His law. Those who say God commits acts of murder, theft and lying and cannot be guilty are accusing God of having a double standard. That's something that Satan likes to do and those who are deceived by his influences.
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No... you do not understand sin. Murder, stealing, lying etc... is the act of sinning. God cannot commit acts of sin because it's the opposite of His nature which is His law. Those who say God commits acts of murder, theft and lying and cannot be guilty are accusing God of having a double standard. That's something that Satan likes to do and those who are deceived by his influences.
Yes... and God does not go against His own will therefore murdering, lying or stealing are not one of those things He does. But if you believe Satan's lie, like many here do, that the God in the OT doesn't just have the knowledge of evil but also commits acts of evil, like lying and murder, and because these evil acts He commits are His will therefore they are not sin then there's nothing I can say to change that view.
T
Ok now you have an error.
We agree that sinning is going against the will of God. So if God were to kill someone, even if the bible says we cannot, it is righteous because he is God. God cannot go against his own will. God commands his angels to put lieing spirits into people's mouths. If we were to lie, it'd be a sin, but sense God sanctioned this lie, it is not a sin because it was God's will for it to happen. God can kill, and does. We cannot kill for it is sinful. God's will for us is different that his will for us. Thou shalt not kill is for us. His will for himself is whatever he does. He cannot sin because whatever he does is not sin, rather it would be sinful for us or not to do is irrelevant.
We agree that sinning is going against the will of God. So if God were to kill someone, even if the bible says we cannot, it is righteous because he is God. God cannot go against his own will. God commands his angels to put lieing spirits into people's mouths. If we were to lie, it'd be a sin, but sense God sanctioned this lie, it is not a sin because it was God's will for it to happen. God can kill, and does. We cannot kill for it is sinful. God's will for us is different that his will for us. Thou shalt not kill is for us. His will for himself is whatever he does. He cannot sin because whatever he does is not sin, rather it would be sinful for us or not to do is irrelevant.
You’re purposely mixing the word killing with murder like others here like to do. The discussion was about murder and theft… not killing. One is unlawful and the other is lawful.
The God of Israel recorded in the Old Testament demonstrated His will and what He does when He came in the flesh and lived for over 30 years among us as He has always lived… without sin. Jesus did not murder or steal like you say He did when He ruled as the God of Israel. The way Jesus lived is the way God has always lived from eternity before creation because Jesus is God. Whoever does not believe this has no part in Christ.
The God of Israel recorded in the Old Testament demonstrated His will and what He does when He came in the flesh and lived for over 30 years among us as He has always lived… without sin. Jesus did not murder or steal like you say He did when He ruled as the God of Israel. The way Jesus lived is the way God has always lived from eternity before creation because Jesus is God. Whoever does not believe this has no part in Christ.
T
I would say God murdered. He killed Job's kids just to prove a point. (Or sanctioned it if you believe the devil did it)
God is allowed to do this because whatever he does is in accordance to his will so no matter what it is not sin. How Jesus lived is not how God has always lived. Jesus never killed a person, the God of Israel did.
Either way my point on the military being sinful is still true. If you are in the military you are aiding, or supporting, the killing of people in other countries. You can justify it by saying you were forced to (which you weren't) or that you were protecting your family (which you could have done in so many non-sinful ways) but military without God as the leader, is murder.
God is allowed to do this because whatever he does is in accordance to his will so no matter what it is not sin. How Jesus lived is not how God has always lived. Jesus never killed a person, the God of Israel did.
Either way my point on the military being sinful is still true. If you are in the military you are aiding, or supporting, the killing of people in other countries. You can justify it by saying you were forced to (which you weren't) or that you were protecting your family (which you could have done in so many non-sinful ways) but military without God as the leader, is murder.
Yes… the God of Israel killed people but He never murdered them. And the way Jesus lived is how God always lived but when He came in the flesh He came in weakness for the purpose of submitting Himself under the powers of evil instead of ruling over the powers of evil as He did in the OT, which can only be accomplished by violent force. Jesus was the God of Israel and killing is not murder. There are a lot of different views among Christians. This “God of the OT was a murderer” is one of them.
Jesus lived how He always lived. He was exactly the same person in appearance as the one who appeared to Abraham by the terebinth trees of Mamre along with two others who dined on bread, butter, milk and meat. It was Jesus who wrestled with Jacob and changed his name to Israel. It was Jesus who appeared to Moses Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders who, “saw the God of Israel.” And they saw “under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.” It was Jesus who appeared to Joshua with His sword drawn in His hand and said He was the “Commander of the army of the LORD.”
All of these men from Abraham to Jacob if they would have lived during the time of Christ would have fell on their faces as soon as the saw Him because they would have recognized Him. Jesus is the God of the OT and He never murdered or sanctioned the murder of anyone. If you and your contingent of Christians can’t understand this then there’s little more I can say to convince you.
I do however agree with your view about joining the military And yes…” killing without God as the leader, is murder.”
Jesus lived how He always lived. He was exactly the same person in appearance as the one who appeared to Abraham by the terebinth trees of Mamre along with two others who dined on bread, butter, milk and meat. It was Jesus who wrestled with Jacob and changed his name to Israel. It was Jesus who appeared to Moses Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders who, “saw the God of Israel.” And they saw “under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.” It was Jesus who appeared to Joshua with His sword drawn in His hand and said He was the “Commander of the army of the LORD.”
All of these men from Abraham to Jacob if they would have lived during the time of Christ would have fell on their faces as soon as the saw Him because they would have recognized Him. Jesus is the God of the OT and He never murdered or sanctioned the murder of anyone. If you and your contingent of Christians can’t understand this then there’s little more I can say to convince you.
I do however agree with your view about joining the military And yes…” killing without God as the leader, is murder.”
Try this video to see the depth of a veteran's heart. Battles Fought and Battles Won-Poem by G. J. Legrow - YouTube
T
That's directed to us though. The law was directed towards us. Whoever is clearly talking about people. The bible is for people to read, so yes you are right for us a sin is going against what the bible says. For God its different, he can't sin no matter what, because whatever he does is righteous. He does have a nature he usually follows, like he doesn't go around shooting up places and calls in righteous, but he will kill somebody and because he did it, it was righteous.
L
To discuss this subject, from either side, in the terms of "murder" or "killing" only de-rails the thread at this point.
Charles Spurgeon: " I always rejoice to find a soldier a Christian, but I always mourn to find a Christian a soldier,... The followers of Christ in these days seem to me to have forgotten a great part of Christianity." Charles Spurgeon: On War and Christians | C.H. Spurgeon Quotes pertaining to pacifism
Charles Spurgeon: " I always rejoice to find a soldier a Christian, but I always mourn to find a Christian a soldier,... The followers of Christ in these days seem to me to have forgotten a great part of Christianity." Charles Spurgeon: On War and Christians | C.H. Spurgeon Quotes pertaining to pacifism
J
Speaking from experience I was sent to Vietnam as a youngster to serve my country. When I was there I was given a very dangerous job to do which sent me driving in front of the troops in a bulldozer to clear the mines. The man before me got a rocket which he only just survived so I knew my chances were slim and not being a Christian I called out to God and He delivered me all the time I was there so I sought Him out when I came back to say thank you and finished up becoming a Christian myself serving Him. The same question was asked of me many times by other Christians who were thinking of going into the forces and after much prayer I gained the answer for me so you can ponder this if you like. The answer for me was to do as the government of the day said if I was to be in the forces but as far as touching a gun never again. I had a gun as a youngster but as soon as I got back from Vietnam I got rid of it and neither myself or my children or grandchildren have ever touched guns again. Might sound strange to you there but God has blessed my life since
I can not see from the teachings of Christ and the apostles that christians can justify war and participating in war. We are called to lay down our lives as Jesus did.
There is no justification for war, I do not care what St Augustine or St Thomas Aquinas said. Christians are called to be sacrificial lambs, taking up their cross and following their Lord in his sacrifice for the salvation of the world.
Lord have mercy , Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy
There is no justification for war, I do not care what St Augustine or St Thomas Aquinas said. Christians are called to be sacrificial lambs, taking up their cross and following their Lord in his sacrifice for the salvation of the world.
Lord have mercy , Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy
L
Amen.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer– “To believe the promise of Jesus that his followers shall possess the earth, and at the same time to face our enemies unarmed and defenseless, preferring to incur injustice rather than to do wrong ourselves, is indeed a narrow way.”
(The epigraph from my book Christian Pacifism: Fruit of the Narrow Way)
Dietrich Bonhoeffer– “To believe the promise of Jesus that his followers shall possess the earth, and at the same time to face our enemies unarmed and defenseless, preferring to incur injustice rather than to do wrong ourselves, is indeed a narrow way.”
(The epigraph from my book Christian Pacifism: Fruit of the Narrow Way)