Going against the group?: When is it legit? When is it delusional aggrandizement?

[1still_waters]

The Topic - Going against the group?: When is it legit? When is it delusional self created aggrandizement?

This definition of aggrandizement will be used in this post.
the act of making something appear greater than is actually warranted by the facts: Some saw it as ego aggrandizement.

We all know of heroes, who had the backbone to stand apart from group think.
These types had courage, and backbones made of steel.
They didn’t care what the group said, they had the guts to stand for what is right.

History looks back at such brave men and women, and grants them high esteem.

There is a certain hero quality given to those willing to go against the flow. This is esteemed so highly, that some may give esteem by default, to those they observe as “against the flow”. In fact, those “in the flow” may be given less esteem. Those “in the flow” may be viewed as weaker, dumber, sheeple-ish.

What happens when the social elevation of such people gets cemented in the mind of a dangerous lone-wolf? What happens when the dangerous lone-wolf associates their unique behaviors with the unique behaviors of true against the stream heroes?

The first person to come to mind is the Unabomber, aka Ted Kaczynski. This is a man who in his own mind thought he was fighting for a good cause. He was against the advance of technology, yet “those in the flow” just wouldn’t follow along. What did this “against the flow” lone-wolf guy do? He built bombs, and murdered people.

How could this man possibly arrive at the conclusion that doing such was a good thing? Did he have a delusional self created aggrandizement that associated his behavior as on the same level as past heroes? Did he see people in the past who went against the flow, and assume he was like them, simply because he was going against the flow too?

When is going against the flow legit?
When is going against the flow simply a case of delusional self created aggrandizement?

Have you ever thought your “against the flowy-ness” was legit, only to discover later you were in the wrong? What initially caused you to think it was legit? Was it because you were going against the “sheeple”?

Is there a way to convince a dangerous lone-wolf with a delusional self created aggrandizement, that they aren’t in the right, simply because they’re not one of the “sheeple”?

 

[Praus]

Early Christianity had the same type of problems.

Cum Romanum venio, ieiuno Sabbato; cum hic sum, non ieiuno: sic etiam tu, ad quam forte ecclesiam veneris, eius morem serva, si cuiquam non vis esse scandalum nec quemquam tibi. ("When I go to Rome, I fast on Saturday, but here [Milan] I do not. Do you also follow the custom of whatever church you attend, if you do not want to give or receive scandal.")
--St Augustine, Letters, c. A.D. 390

 

[Grace-Like-Rain]

I know a man who went against the flow. I always admired his boldness in not caring for the opinions of others. However, once he went against the flow when I felt strongly that he wasn't in the right. What were some confirmations for me that this was the case? NO ONE agreed with him. Not his good friends, his godly brother's in Christ or mentors... his church leaders or his family. All warned him against following this thing that he felt was right to do. He continued to forge ahead, to his own ruin, listening to no one.

Can God send a man forward against the flow without further confirming his plan through people or circumstances in his life? Yes, but I believe that most of the time he will confirm through godly counsel. A wise man would pray, meditate, study and think carefully... but he would also pay attention to respected counsel when making his decision.


For by wise guidance you can wage your war, and in abundance of counselors there is victory. Proverbs 24:6

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice. Proverbs 12:15

By insolence comes nothing but strife, but with those who take advice is wisdom. Proverbs 13:10

Listen to advice and accept instruction, that you may gain wisdom in the future. Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand. Proverbs 19:2--21

A single man may be blinded by his own emotions when making a decision, but if several are separately praying to God for wisdom, in my experience they usually come back together having found an answer that is from the Lord.

 

[1still_waters]

Early Christianity had the same type of problems.

Cum Romanum venio, ieiuno Sabbato; cum hic sum, non ieiuno: sic etiam tu, ad quam forte ecclesiam veneris, eius morem serva, si cuiquam non vis esse scandalum nec quemquam tibi. ("When I go to Rome, I fast on Saturday, but here [Milan] I do not. Do you also follow the custom of whatever church you attend, if you do not want to give or receive scandal.")
--St Augustine, Letters, c. A.D. 390

Hmm I don't see how that fits the topic at hand.
This topic is about discerning whether one outside of the flow is legit, or is simply doing self created delusional aggrandizing.

It's about how to talk to those who may be doing the self created delusional aggrandizing, as they associate their dangerous lone-wolf behavior with those in the past who did good as the "against the flow" person.

 

[1still_waters]

I know a man who went against the flow. I always admired his boldness in not caring for the opinions of others. However, once he went against the flow when I felt strongly that he wasn't in the right. What were some confirmations for me that this was the case? NO ONE agreed with him. Not his good friends, his godly brother's in Christ or mentors... his church leaders or his family. All warned him against following this thing that he felt was right to do. He continued to forge ahead, to his own ruin, listening to no one.

Can God send a man forward against the flow without further confirming his plan through people or circumstances in his life? Yes, but I believe that most of the time he will confirm through godly counsel. A wise man would pray, meditate, study and think carefully... but he would also pay attention to respected counsel when making his decision.


For by wise guidance you can wage your war, and in abundance of counselors there is victory. Proverbs 24:6

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice. Proverbs 12:15

By insolence comes nothing but strife, but with those who take advice is wisdom. Proverbs 13:10

Listen to advice and accept instruction, that you may gain wisdom in the future. Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand. Proverbs 19:2--21

Great thoughts!

But some are so convinced due to their delusional self created aggrandizement, that they'll view legit advice, as "opposition". And then the "opposition" causes them to dig their heels in deeper. After all, those "against the flow" people in the past stood against their opposition too.

Great thoughts regardless.

 

[abbiejean]

Meant with no disrepect, but said in sincerity. I read your post two times, then once out loud. Even looked up what the word aggrandizing meant.

Excuse my ignorance but I am not getting what you are trying to say with this post. Do you feel someone or a group of individuals are doing something like this on the board and in a round about way you are trying to "fleece them out?" Was something said and now you ask this?

I guess for me to understand something I deal with specifics. State the what is, who is, how is and go from there. Generalizations (or suppositions) can cause misunderstandings.

Sorry, not getting what you're asking. Will add and just because I don't get it doesn't mean I'm stupid or illiterate.

 

[Praus]

Hmm I don't see how that fits the topic at hand.
This topic is about discerning whether one outside of the flow is legit, or is simply doing self created delusional aggrandizing.

It's about how to talk to those who may be doing the self created delusional aggrandizing, as they associate their dangerous lone-wolf behavior with those in the past who did good as the "against the flow" person.

This thread is too abstract me then. I looked at Kaczynski's historical associations, groups like Luddites, and found them all repellant, not anything I'd associate with doing good.

 

[kenthomas27]

Hmm I don't see how that fits the topic at hand.
This topic is about discerning whether one outside of the flow is legit, or is simply doing self created delusional aggrandizing.

It's about how to talk to those who may be doing the self created delusional aggrandizing, as they associate their dangerous lone-wolf behavior with those in the past who did good as the "against the flow" person.

Actually, I thought Praus' thought might have a lot to do with the topic - or maybe I'm reading things wrong. I mean, early Christians' weren't as lucky as us. They didn't have a network of friends and even foes freely conversing among themselves, encouraging themselves - all the freedoms of faith and worship we enjoy. They were often alone in their faith. They were often sent to their very deaths convinced by a faith that was completely contrary to the norm. People scorned those poor stupid Christians while they sat in prison or fed to lions.

What were those poor stupid Christians thinking? Were they steadfast beyond reasonable logic? Did they ignore wise counsel? To us they are our heroes and we're promised by God they will inherit the earth. But to all else, they were delusional idiots.

 

[1still_waters]

Meant with no disrepect, but said in sincerity. I read your post two times, then once out loud. Even looked up what the word aggrandizing meant.

Excuse my ignorance but I am not getting what you are trying to say with this post. Do you feel someone or a group of individuals are doing something like this on the board and in a round about way you are trying to "fleece them out?" Was something said and now you ask this?

I guess for me to understand something I deal with specifics. State the what is, who is, how is and go from there. Generalizations (or suppositions) can cause misunderstandings.

Sorry, not getting what you're asking. Will add and just because I don't get it doesn't mean I'm stupid or illiterate.

No problemo.
Let's see if I can clarify.

You have a family member, living, behaving in very bad ways.
The family, the friends, everyone is trying to say, "Hey stop. Not good. Hault!"

Or let's say you have someone standing for racial superiority of one race against another.
Everyone in the world, is sayin...NOOOOO!

Let's say the people in my two scenarios above, refuse to listen, because they view themselves as a non-sheeple. They've associated themselves with others in the past who refused to go with the crowd.

In a sense they've self deluded and aggrandized themselves in their own mind.

How do you talk to them?
How do you make sure you're not one of them?

The one who goes against the crowd has been elevated in our history books, so those going against the crowd may associate themself with them. What if in the midst of thinking we're doing right, we're in fact in the wrong? How does one examine their own cause?

Does that help?

 

[1still_waters]

Actually, I thought Praus' thought might have a lot to do with the topic - or maybe I'm reading things wrong. I mean, early Christians' weren't as lucky as us. They didn't have a network of friends and even foes freely conversing among themselves, encouraging themselves - all the freedoms of faith and worship we enjoy. They were often alone in their faith. They were often sent to their very deaths convinced by a faith that was completely contrary to the norm. People scorned those poor stupid Christians while they sat in prison or fed to lions.

What were those poor stupid Christians thinking? Were they steadfast beyond reasonable logic? Did they ignore wise counsel? To us they are our heroes and we're promised by God they will inherit the earth. But to all else, they were delusional idiots.

Yeah I get that Christians in the past were against the flow, and in reality they were in the right.
That's not quite what this post is about.
It's not about pointing out that when you go against the flow you may in fact be in the right.

The fact that grace like rain understood, gives me hope that others aren't hearing bloo deee dluh blud dud when they read this.

 

[kenthomas27]

Yeah I get that Christians in the past were against the flow, and in reality they were in the right.
That's not quite what this post is about.
It's not about pointing out that when you go against the flow you may in fact be in the right.

The fact that grace like rain understood, gives me hope that others aren't hearing bloo deee dluh blud dud when they read this.

if'n you say so den.

 

[Praus]

You have a family member, living, behaving in very bad ways.
The family, the friends, everyone is trying to say, "Hey stop. Not good. Hault!"

Contact the FBI and turn your family member in like David Kaczynski did.

 

[1still_waters]

Contact the FBI and turn your family member in like David Kaczynski did.

Hmm what if it's not an illegal behavior?
I think you may possibly be giving too much emphasis to the Unabomber aspect of this post.

The unabomber was used as an illustration for the overall topic at hand.

 

[Angela53510]

I think there is a vast difference between someone with an ego that needs a bit of taming, a lone wolf who has truly heard God's call and is following it, in spite of opposition, (the prophets, esp. thinking of Jeremiah being put in a dry cistern for standing against the false prophets) and a psychopath like the Unabomber.

People who grandstand and seek attention create issues to me. They may not be certifiable crazy, but they certainly use their cause, or their theology to manipulate others into following them. Think of the number of TV preachers who fall under that definition.

As for false prophets, that is anyone that does not follow the Word of God, adding to it, or taking away from it. God will deal with them, and hopefully before they lead too many astray.

Psychopaths are all about their own perceptions and values, and fail to realize there are boundaries, legal and social that they have crossed, and the result can be hurting many people.

I guess the Old Testament prophets are the most outstanding example of those who took a stand in the face of injustice, lies and torture, without being self-aggrandizing. Yet even they fall short. One only has to remember Elijah, mocking the priests of Baal, and God defeating them totally at the test of the offering on Mr. Carmel. Yet only a few days later, there is the hero, the one who stood against the immorality and evil of Ahaz, Jezebel and their house, running away and hiding because he figures he is the only one standing for God.

I think I tended to stand alone a lot for causes before I became a Christian. I find interesting though, that God has led me back down some of those pathways, fighting against environmental damage, for example, based on the Bible, a very unpopular cause in conservative North America. I am labelled as a liberal and left winger, for wanting to protect the land as God has instructed in his Word. (Lev. 25:2 and Lev. 26:14-17, 32-35 – compare with Ezek. 34:18, and Isa. 24:4-6, Hosea 4:3, and Jer. 12:4)

I guess the main difference in the way I deal with standing by myself for a cause or ideal, is when I was not a believer, I did it with a lot of anger, and malice. It was really "all about me." Now, if I am motivated, it is because I truly believe that the Word of God supports me in my position, and I know God is with me.

To be a "lone wolf" is a good thing, if it means you are responding to God and obeying him. If it means single-mindedly pursuing theologically tenuous positions, to gain respect and honour for self, I believe that becomes the definition of aggrandizement!

 

[1still_waters]

I think there is a vast difference between someone with an ego that needs a bit of taming, a lone wolf who has truly heard God's call and is following it, in spite of opposition, (the prophets, esp. thinking of Jeremiah being put in a dry cistern for standing against the false prophets) and a psychopath like the Unabomber.

People who grandstand and seek attention create issues to me. They may not be certifiable crazy, but they certainly use their cause, or their theology to manipulate others into following them. Think of the number of TV preachers who fall under that definition.

As for false prophets, that is anyone that does not follow the Word of God, adding to it, or taking away from it. God will deal with them, and hopefully before they lead too many astray.

Psychopaths are all about their own perceptions and values, and fail to realize there are boundaries, legal and social that they have crossed, and the result can be hurting many people.

I guess the Old Testament prophets are the most outstanding example of those who took a stand in the face of injustice, lies and torture, without being self-aggrandizing. Yet even they fall short. One only has to remember Elijah, mocking the priests of Baal, and God defeating them totally at the test of the offering on Mr. Carmel. Yet only a few days later, there is the hero, the one who stood against the immorality and evil of Ahaz, Jezebel and their house, running away and hiding because he figures he is the only one standing for God.

I think I tended to stand alone a lot for causes before I became a Christian. I find interesting though, that God has led me back down some of those pathways, fighting against environmental damage, for example, based on the Bible, a very unpopular cause in conservative North America. I am labelled as a liberal and left winger, for wanting to protect the land as God has instructed in his Word. (Lev. 25:2 and Lev. 26:14-17, 32-35 – compare with Ezek. 34:18, and Isa. 24:4-6, Hosea 4:3, and Jer. 12:4)

I guess the main difference in the way I deal with standing by myself for a cause or ideal, is when I was not a believer, I did it with a lot of anger, and malice. It was really "all about me." Now, if I am motivated, it is because I truly believe that the Word of God supports me in my position, and I know God is with me.

To be a "lone wolf" is a good thing, if it means you are responding to God and obeying him. If it means single-mindedly pursuing theologically tenuous positions, to gain respect and honour for self, I believe that becomes the definition of aggrandizement!

How do you address the dangerous/destructive lone wolf who associates their lone stand as being on the same moral ground as those in the past who took truly good/moral stands alone? To them, alone=good/moral/altruistic/etc. To them their aloneness only validates in their mind that they are in the right, when in fact they are in the wrong.

 

[abbiejean]

Thank you, 1still_waters. Your explanation helped. Appreciate it.

To be a "lone wolf" is a good thing, if it means you are responding to God and obeying him.

Amen.

Can I add...?

Sometimes one has to, as I've stated somewhere before on this site in one of my posts, one has to pick their own battles. Do we wrestle and twist and turn and debate/argue for the sake of wanting to be right or do we just walk away, knowing in our heart that what we've shared and how we've stated it is what we hold to be truth based on what God has revealed and shown to us through His Word? Knowing that a heart has to be receptive to receive and only God causes that to happen.

God has told us when the Spirit of Truth is come It will guide into all truth. Jesus Christ said He was The Way, The Truth and The Life. God does the revealing. God has (or controls) the heart. We just sow. We just lift Him up.

I know when I first came into the Truth before I was born again I wouldn't hear it, wouldn't listen. I couldn't. My heart was closed. Plugged. Locked. People prayed. God moved. I let Him in.

Now, years later when I respond to people I share what I feel led to share, being confident in what I know, and am open to discuss/communicate but not strife. James 3:16-18.

 

[abbiejean]

Can God send a man forward against the flow without further confirming his plan through people or circumstances in his life? Yes, but I believe that most of the time he will confirm through godly counsel. A wise man would pray, meditate, study and think carefully... but he would also pay attention to respected counsel when making his decision.

Amen.

Totally agree 100%

 

[BananaPie]

The Topic - Going against the group?: When is it legit? When is it delusional self created aggrandizement?

This definition of aggrandizement will be used in this post.
the act of making something appear greater than is actually warranted by the facts: Some saw it as ego aggrandizement.

When is it legit to go against the flow?
Well, going against the flow is called for when justice demands it. For examples, Martin Luther, the monk vs. the RCC, and Martin Luther King Jr. vs. Jim Crow US Laws.

Going against the flow due to delusional aggrandizement is always wrong and is linked to narcissism, as in the case of Sadam Hussien and most of those in the US Congress who quickly forget "We the People of the United States of America" as soon as they arrive in DC, or to a media-created ego anchored to money, money, money as in the case of Justin Bieber, most modern-day Federal Judges LOL, and "celebraties" like Lindsey Lohan.

As for "making something appear greater than is actually warrant by fact," that is where Federal Judges and the US Congress dance their egos, going against the People, when it comes to homos, weed, the 2nd Amendment, Abortion, illegal immigration integration, public education, etc. The People vote in social issues by overwhelming slides, yet here come the Judges nullifying the Voters after Congress distort the facts through the media lobbying for them.

Why does this happen in the US? Because they can all get away with it; that's the culture in Washington D.C., and they all know it. Yikes!

 

[Angela53510]

How do you address the dangerous/destructive lone wolf who associates their lone stand as being on the same moral ground as those in the past who took truly good/moral stands alone? To them, alone=good/moral/altruistic/etc. To them their aloneness only validates in their mind that they are in the right, when in fact they are in the wrong.

This is a very important question! For those who are transgressing God's teaching, no rationalization is sufficient. I guess the litmus test has to be, "Does the Bible support this?"

But that leaves a lot of gray areas, things which didn't even exist in Biblical times. Is smoking weed bad or good? If someone is standing up for the cause of legalizing marijuana, for example, how can you demonstrate that this is not God's will, esp. considering that if it was legal, it would basically be a victimless crime?

I think science can help in this regard. Showing addiction rates, and the association with schizophrenia. Also, the purpose of "getting stoned" is to be "out of this world" or "high." The Bible does have a parallel scenario with regards to drunkenness. Anything that makes us irresponsible, whether alcohol, weed or other stimulants seems to me to be unBiblical.

I think another important factor is to measure the message against the Word of God. What are the parallels in Scripture? For instance, if abortion is wrong, can we find supporting evidence in the Bible? There are many verses which show the value of the unborn children, including Psalm 139:13, which is a prime example. This puts anyone in the pro-abortion cause in direct conflict with the Bible, even though it never directly says, "Don't kill unborn children." Like it was even an issue in Biblical times!

As for the aloneness validating the lone wolf, we are created to live in community. Any individual who claims to follow Christ, and yet feels they can live on their own, is lying to themselves and God. We need the body of Christ for correction, for encouragement and comfort. Anyone walking away from the body, is walking away from part of the purposes of the body of Christ.

To correct someone who is in left field, while claiming to follow God, is a ministry of exhortation. The lone wolf needs to be taught the truth of God's word. Will they listen? Well, that is between them and God.

But if they are dangerous in their lone wolf stand, then perhaps it is time to inform the proper authorities. That might range from the local pastor and elders, to the police or even the FBI in the US. Following through as a Christian and trying to protect innocent bystanders, is between us and God.

So Stilly, do you have a concrete circumstance or person you are thinking about in this post, or do you just want to hear the consensus on this topic?

 

[1still_waters]

This is a very important question! For those who are transgressing God's teaching, no rationalization is sufficient. I guess the litmus test has to be, "Does the Bible support this?"

But that leaves a lot of gray areas, things which didn't even exist in Biblical times. Is smoking weed bad or good? If someone is standing up for the cause of legalizing marijuana, for example, how can you demonstrate that this is not God's will, esp. considering that if it was legal, it would basically be a victimless crime?

I think science can help in this regard. Showing addiction rates, and the association with schizophrenia. Also, the purpose of "getting stoned" is to be "out of this world" or "high." The Bible does have a parallel scenario with regards to drunkenness. Anything that makes us irresponsible, whether alcohol, weed or other stimulants seems to me to be unBiblical.

I think another important factor is to measure the message against the Word of God. What are the parallels in Scripture? For instance, if abortion is wrong, can we find supporting evidence in the Bible? There are many verses which show the value of the unborn children, including Psalm 139:13, which is a prime example. This puts anyone in the pro-abortion cause in direct conflict with the Bible, even though it never directly says, "Don't kill unborn children." Like it was even an issue in Biblical times!

As for the aloneness validating the lone wolf, we are created to live in community. Any individual who claims to follow Christ, and yet feels they can live on their own, is lying to themselves and God. We need the body of Christ for correction, for encouragement and comfort. Anyone walking away from the body, is walking away from part of the purposes of the body of Christ.

To correct someone who is in left field, while claiming to follow God, is a ministry of exhortation. The lone wolf needs to be taught the truth of God's word. Will they listen? Well, that is between them and God.

But if they are dangerous in their lone wolf stand, then perhaps it is time to inform the proper authorities. That might range from the local pastor and elders, to the police or even the FBI in the US. Following through as a Christian and trying to protect innocent bystanders, is between us and God.

So Stilly, do you have a concrete circumstance or person you are thinking about in this post, or do you just want to hear the consensus on this topic?

Wow great reply.
Thanks for taking the time to type all of that out.

I have a cousin, who's just out there.
They're a tough nut to crack, but there has to be an angle to get in their head