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Praus, with all due respect, in my personal convictions as a Christian I am not ...nor do I feel others are stating that everybody needs to carry a firearm.
Some simply understand that some are called to for good reason so that others don't have to.
We all have a different calling unto our purpose under heaven.
Some simply understand that some are called to for good reason so that others don't have to.
We all have a different calling unto our purpose under heaven.
Oh So now we can trust his integrity because as he said he would ignore us, He's ignoring us?
Did you ever read Claude Lévi-Strauss? I can't find the quote but essentially he describes Western anthropology as endless self-reflection under the guise of studying "primitive" cultures--pffff--postmodernism.
No idea, I defer to Gödel (and also changing the subject!)
Oh I haven't, but he seems like an interesting dude. Oh don't get me started on postmodernism. Chomsky says it best.
Gödel is awesome!!! My favourite!! One of the most astounding mathematicians and scientists of all time, his incompleteness theorem is one of the foundations of modern day science and technology.
Reading his theorem increased my faith. Sitting around , I realized how as human beings we are never capable, never perfect, always failing , always incomplete... it pushed me to find how wonderful and great it is to trust in God...
For everything.
Psalm 91:2
I will say of the Lord, “He is my refuge and my fortress,
my God, in whom I trust.”
Science and math are supposed to do that! They show us our human limitations--Job 38 is an excellent illustration.
Job 38:1-8 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or [who] shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, [as if] it had issued out of the womb?
Job 38:1-8 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or [who] shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, [as if] it had issued out of the womb?
We're still deciding if that's limited to law enforcement or not. That's one of the issues in this thread is that there is no right to bear arms under Indian law. I've traveled in India, they have vastly different social issues there (like overpopulation), and I would say projecting Americanism onto that isn't edifying.
Well, I do a few things myself, some Greek, some Hebrew, I support newly sober alcoholics, and so on, but mostly what you see me doing here on CC (which they call trolling) is simply pointing out what's an image of man.
Rom 1:22-23 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man ...
Being a Christian is tightrope walk every day. We're called to rejoice in the day that the LORD gives (Ps 118:24) but to also deny the world. If I fail on that it's because I haven't submitted to God enough.
Well, I do a few things myself, some Greek, some Hebrew, I support newly sober alcoholics, and so on, but mostly what you see me doing here on CC (which they call trolling) is simply pointing out what's an image of man.
Rom 1:22-23 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man ...
Being a Christian is tightrope walk every day. We're called to rejoice in the day that the LORD gives (Ps 118:24) but to also deny the world. If I fail on that it's because I haven't submitted to God enough.
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If we're going to not allow gun ownership for self defense based on Bible verses which say not to love our life, then shouldn't we apply that further? Why have police? Why have laws? Why have a military? Don't all of these things meant to protect life, in fact promote the loving of life? I mean why have a law to protect anyone? Doesn't such a law say to everyone that life is to be loved?
As far as using verses like God is my refuge, shelter, etc. as proof we don't need private ownership of guns for protection, why not carry that further? Why have police, military, etc?
I find the application of verses having to do with not loving life, and seeking God as a refuge as sorta selective.
As far as using verses like God is my refuge, shelter, etc. as proof we don't need private ownership of guns for protection, why not carry that further? Why have police, military, etc?
I find the application of verses having to do with not loving life, and seeking God as a refuge as sorta selective.
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Christians are fine with using their tax money to hire a military, or police to carry guns, and provide protection for a nation and people. In fact many Christians would call the police if under threat from someone, and would probably support the police using deadly force if necessary to provide protection.
In those scenarios, why not apply verses about not loving life?
In those scenarios why not apply verses about God being a refuge?
If a woman calls the police for help, why not just have the dispatcher tell her not to love her life, and find refuge in the Lord, before she hangs up?
How is it different for a Christian to give their tax money and support to police and the military to pull a trigger on a gun to give protection? The only difference is who has their hand on that trigger. In either case the Christian is giving support and consent. Is it just that some Christians want someone else to do the dirty work?
If protecting life at the end of a gun is dirty work, isn't it almost double minded/duplicitous for a Christian to support cops/military doing it but not for a private citizen to? In the case of police/military the Christian is still giving consent and support for something they themselves claim is wrong to do.
In those scenarios, why not apply verses about not loving life?
In those scenarios why not apply verses about God being a refuge?
If a woman calls the police for help, why not just have the dispatcher tell her not to love her life, and find refuge in the Lord, before she hangs up?
How is it different for a Christian to give their tax money and support to police and the military to pull a trigger on a gun to give protection? The only difference is who has their hand on that trigger. In either case the Christian is giving support and consent. Is it just that some Christians want someone else to do the dirty work?
If protecting life at the end of a gun is dirty work, isn't it almost double minded/duplicitous for a Christian to support cops/military doing it but not for a private citizen to? In the case of police/military the Christian is still giving consent and support for something they themselves claim is wrong to do.
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I just can't get over the selective application of verses.
If everything is a matter of simply not loving your life, being a slave to all, and seeking refuge in God, then why should anyone stand up for anyone's interests?
Why be against human trafficking?
Why be against slavery?
Why be against sexism?
Instead of fighting all of those things, we should simply say ...."Well this life is temporal, quit loving your life, find refuge in God, you don't need anyone to advocate for you, and well we're all slaves anyways."
Honestly if we're going to apply verses about not loving life, finding refuge in God, and being slaves to all to guns for personal protection, then we need to apply it to every scenario where some sort of protecting or advocating is needed. We can't be selective.
Of course we all see the absurdity of carrying those verses to such a back breaking extent.
If everything is a matter of simply not loving your life, being a slave to all, and seeking refuge in God, then why should anyone stand up for anyone's interests?
Why be against human trafficking?
Why be against slavery?
Why be against sexism?
Instead of fighting all of those things, we should simply say ...."Well this life is temporal, quit loving your life, find refuge in God, you don't need anyone to advocate for you, and well we're all slaves anyways."
Honestly if we're going to apply verses about not loving life, finding refuge in God, and being slaves to all to guns for personal protection, then we need to apply it to every scenario where some sort of protecting or advocating is needed. We can't be selective.
Of course we all see the absurdity of carrying those verses to such a back breaking extent.
Without military, police or firearms is exactly how the Mennonites of Spanish Lookout, Belize live and they have high speed internet too. They have the best roads in the country by far because they built it themselves instead of letting the government do it.
Spanish Lookout shows us that Anabaptist pacifism works quite well in the modern world.
Spanish Lookout shows us that Anabaptist pacifism works quite well in the modern world.
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But Praus, you're all for giving your tax money, your consent, your full approval, for the US military to go in with aircraft, bombs, guns, etc. to protect the children, with obvious implied deadly force. You'd give your very hard earned money, your consent, your approval to do all that, all in the name of saving innocent life.
How is that any different than a private citizen owning a gun to protect innocent life? For you personally, the only difference is that someone else is pulling the trigger to achieve your desire to protect the innocent from evil.
You seem totally fine with it, as long as it's not you doing the dirty work of actually pulling the trigger.
Why not just say to those kids in Peru that they shouldn't love their life, and that they need to be victims of the cartels?
Why not tell them to seek refuge in the Lord only, without the help of armed good guys to step in?
Why not tell the innocent children that since they're kids, if they're murdered they'll go to heaven, and we need to let the evil drug pushers live so they could possibly accept the Gospel?
How is that any different than a private citizen owning a gun to protect innocent life? For you personally, the only difference is that someone else is pulling the trigger to achieve your desire to protect the innocent from evil.
You seem totally fine with it, as long as it's not you doing the dirty work of actually pulling the trigger.
Why not just say to those kids in Peru that they shouldn't love their life, and that they need to be victims of the cartels?
Why not tell them to seek refuge in the Lord only, without the help of armed good guys to step in?
Why not tell the innocent children that since they're kids, if they're murdered they'll go to heaven, and we need to let the evil drug pushers live so they could possibly accept the Gospel?
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If this is the debate, then what I typed earlier applies.
If you're a Christian who consents to give their hard earned tax money to police, and if you give your full Christian consent and approval to the police to pull the trigger to defend the afflicted etc, then the only difference is that it's not the Christian pulling the trigger.
The heart of the Christian is still giving full approval to taking the life of a wrong doer in order to protect the innocent, afflicted etc.
Now some could say it's different, because a citizen with a gun may not be stable. Well it's never a given that a police officer will always be stable too. Some could object to the citizen having a gun, because guns don't always work. But the same could be said of the officer with a gun.
Regardless, the only difference is in who is pulling the trigger.
In each case, the Christian is funding, approving, consenting to it.
If you're a Christian who consents to give their hard earned tax money to police, and if you give your full Christian consent and approval to the police to pull the trigger to defend the afflicted etc, then the only difference is that it's not the Christian pulling the trigger.
The heart of the Christian is still giving full approval to taking the life of a wrong doer in order to protect the innocent, afflicted etc.
Now some could say it's different, because a citizen with a gun may not be stable. Well it's never a given that a police officer will always be stable too. Some could object to the citizen having a gun, because guns don't always work. But the same could be said of the officer with a gun.
Regardless, the only difference is in who is pulling the trigger.
In each case, the Christian is funding, approving, consenting to it.
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