Sacred Name Cult Exposed and Debunked

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danschance

Guest
#1
The Sacred Name Cult or Sacred Name Movement or Sacred Namers (SN) are groups or individuals who insist we must pronounce the correct name of God and insist we shun incorrect names for God. The Jehovah's Witnesses are the largest group of SN'ers as they insist we must Call God Jehovah. They even produce their own bible where they have inserted the name Jehovah into the New Testament. Today the SNers insist we should only use the correct hebrew names for God and Jesus.

Errors of the Sacred namers

Error #1 The tetragramaton can be determined accurately.
The precise pronunciation of YHWH has been lost to history.

Error #2 The bible, especially the New Testament, as we have is corrupted and Sacred Namers can correct it.
Like the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Sacred Namers edit the bible by inserting the "corect" hebrew name(s) especially in the New Testament.

Error #3 The New Testament was originally written in Hebrew.
This is laughable as there is no evidence to this claim.

Error #4 Jesus spoke and proclaimed the sacred name of Yaweh (YHWH).
Many Sacred Namers claim this was Christ's mission and now they are doing the same thing.

Error #5 Jesus is the pagan name of Zeus.
Not all Sacred Namers claim this but certainly some do. There is no evidence for this claim.

Error #6 Christ is pagan for Krishna.
Same comment as above.

Error #7 The real name for Jesus is Yeshua and to be saved you must use that name.
The Sacred Namers claim that you must use the correct Hebrew names for God and Jesus. Is this a form of whitchcraft? In occult ritual one must pronounce spells correctly or they won't work. The problem with the Sacred Namers is they can not all agree on which name is sacred. Some claim it is Yeshua, others claim Yahoshua, still others claim it is Yaohushua and on and on it goes.

Error #8 The Trinity is pagan and Jesus is not God.
Many Sacred Namers deny the trinity. They most often embrace Arianism.

Error breeds more error.

For more info:
Home - SacredName.com
Sacred Name movement pt.1

[video=youtube;2PSjQWSJ_28]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PSjQWSJ_28[/video]
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#2
It is cultish to pull apart the way others want to follow Christ as you are doing, and saying only you are right. If you would listen to others in the way God asks you to instead of sitting in judgment, you might learn something or you might find more reason for your position.

We are told what to look for to see if someone is a Christian. Scripture says by their love you will know them. Scripture says that it is through Christ we are saved. Scripture does not say that you can tell a Christian by the name he uses for God. I don't think it is right to condemn others based on what he believes about the name of our Lord.
 
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danschance

Guest
#3
It is cultish to pull apart the way others want to follow Christ as you are doing, and saying only you are right. If you would listen to others in the way God asks you to instead of sitting in judgment, you might learn something or you might find more reason for your position.

We are told what to look for to see if someone is a Christian. Scripture says by their love you will know them. Scripture says that it is through Christ we are saved. Scripture does not say that you can tell a Christian by the name he uses for God. I don't think it is right to condemn others based on what he believes about the name of our Lord.
No need to be snippy. I am simply warning others of the ridiculous myths of the sacred name cult.
 

TheAristocat

Senior Member
Oct 4, 2011
2,150
26
0
#4
Some of those points I agree with. Some I don't. The only one I think is really important is:

Error #7 The real name for Jesus is Yeshua and to be saved you must use that name.
And I can see why they believe this, but in my opinion it's just adding to the Gospel.
 

NWL

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2012
433
9
18
#5
There is lie after lie in your post, no doubt there may be some religious groups who may insist on the apparent errors that you listed, but the Jehovah's Witnesses do not proclaim any of the errors that you listed apart from Error 8. Some of your so called Errors aren't even errors but in fact undeniable truths.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are the largest group of SN'ers as they insist we must Call God Jehovah. They even produce their own bible where they have inserted the name Jehovah into the New Testament. Today the SNers insist we should only use the correct hebrew names for God and Jesus.
For one Jehovah's Witnesses do not insist that they must call God "Jehovah", different Jehovah's Witnesses from all around the world call God by there own languages translation on the tetragrammaton YHWH, below are a list of some;

CHIHOWA: Choctaw
IÁHVE: Portuguese
IEHOUA: Mer
IEHOVA: Gilbertese; Hawaiian; Hiri Motu; Kerewo; Kiwai; Marquesas; Motu; Panaieti (Misima); Rarotongan; Tahitian; Toaripi
IEHOVAN: Saibai
IEOVA: Kuanua; Wedau
IHOVA: Aneityum
IHVH: French
IOVA: Malekula (Kuliviu); Malekula (Pangkumu); Malekula (Uripiv)
JAHOWA: Batak-Toba
JAHUÈ: Chacobo
JAKWE: (Ki)Sukuma
JAHVE: Hungarian
JEHOBA: Kipsigis; Mentawai
JEHOFA: Tswana
JEHOVA: Croatian; German; Kélé (Gabon); Lele (Manus Island); Nandi; Nauruan; Nukuoro
JEHOVÁ: Spanish
JEHÔVA: Fang; Tsimihety
JEHOVAH: Dutch; Efik; English; Kalenjin; Malagasy; Narrinyeri; Ojibwa
JEOVA: Kusaie (Kosraean)
JIHOVA: Naga (Angami); Naga (Konyak); Naga (Lotha); Naga (Mao); Naga (Ntenyi); Naga (Sangtam); Rotuman
JIOUA: Mortlock
JIOVA: Fijian
JIWHEYẸWHE: Gu (Alada)
SIHOVA: Tongan
UYEHOVA: Zulu
YAHOWA: Thai
YAHVE: Ila
YAVE: Kongo
YAWE: Bobangi; Bolia; Dholuo; Lingala; Mongo (Lolo); (Lo)Ngandu; (Lo)Ntumba; (Ke)Sengele
YEHÓA: Awabakal
YEHOFA: Southern Sotho
YEHOVA: Chokwe; Chuana (Tlapi); (Ki)Kalanga; Logo; Luba; Lugbara; (Chi)Luimbi; (Chi)Lunda (Ndembu); (Chi)Luvale; Santo (Hog Harbor); Tiv; Umbundu; (Isi)Xhosa
YEHOVAH: Bube; Mohawk; Nguna (Efate); Nguna (Tongoa)
YEHOWA: Ga; Laotian; (Ki)Songe; Tshiluba
YEKOVA: Zande
YEOBA: Kuba (Inkongo)
YEOHOWA: Korean
YHWH: Hebrew
YOWO: Lomwe
ZAHOVA: Chin (Haka-Lai)

Error #1 The tetragramaton can be determined accurately.
The precise pronunciation of YHWH has been lost to history.
JW's do not believe or teach this, they understand that the true verbal rendering of the name has been lost, they themselves teach this in there organization.

Error #2 The bible, especially the New Testament, as we have is corrupted and Sacred Namers can correct it.
Like the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Sacred Namers edit the bible by inserting the "corect" hebrew name(s) especially in the New Testament.
JW's also do not teach this, they do however insert the translation of the tetragrammaton into places where it is either clear it's in reference to the Father Jehovah or when the bible writer at the time was quoting from the Old Testament.

Error #3 The New Testament was originally written in Hebrew.
This is laughable as there is no evidence to this claim.
The JW's again do not teach this, they understand that the NT was written in ancient Greek.

Error #4 Jesus spoke and proclaimed the sacred name of Yaweh (YHWH).
Many Sacred Namers claim this was Christ's mission and now they are doing the same thing.
This is not an "Error", it is undeniable scriptural fact that Jesus both used and was sent down to glorify the Fathers name Jehovah/YHWH.

(John 17:4,6) "...I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do...“I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word..."

(John 12:28) "...Father, glorify your name.” Therefore a voice came out of heaven: “I both glorified [it] and will glorify [it] again...”

So Jesus glorifed the Fathers name, based on scripture what is the Fathers name? “I am Jehovah. That is my name" (Isaiah 42:8)

Error #5 Jesus is the pagan name of Zeus.
Not all Sacred Namers claim this but certainly some do. There is no evidence for this claim.

Error #6 Christ is pagan for Krishna.
Same comment as above.
JW's do not teach or believe any of the above.

Error #7 The real name for Jesus is Yeshua and to be saved you must use that name.
The Sacred Namers claim that you must use the correct Hebrew names for God and Jesus.
The Son of Gods name is Jesus, the JW's believe this fact and reject that we "must" use the correct name for Jesus and God like you said above. One thing that we do understand is that Jesus Christ wasn't called by the name Jesus when he walked the Earth.

Error #8 The Trinity is pagan and Jesus is not God.
Many Sacred Namers deny the trinity. They most often embrace Arianism.
The one and only point that holds truth to the JW's belief, they do reject the trinity and believe that it has pagan roots, which there is an overwhelming amount of apparent evidence for.

The most intelligent thing you said on your thread is that "Error breeds more error" which is clearly true in your case, you should do more research on a certain group before you identify them as a main culprit for something which they weren't guilty for in the first place, error does indeed breed more error.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#7
Exodus 20:7, "You shall not take the Name of Yahweh your Heavenly Father to bring it to nothing, for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless who brings it to nothing."

7723. shav
shav: emptiness, vanity
Original Word: שָׁוְא
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: shav
Phonetic Spelling: (shawv)
Short Definition: vain

7723. shav
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
emptiness, vanity

7723. shav
Brown-Driver-Briggs
שָׁוְא noun [masculine] emptiness, vanity

7723. shav
Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) emptiness, vanity, falsehood
1a) emptiness, nothingness, vanity
1b) emptiness of speech, lying
1c) worthlessness (of conduct)

Psalm 22:22, "I will declare Your Name to My brothers! In the midst of the congregation I will give You praise!"

Psalm 44:20-21, "If we have forgotten Your Name, Yahweh, or if we stretched out our hands to hinder gods, Would You not search this out, Yahweh? For You know the secrets; hidden things, of the heart."

Our Heavenly Father has many titles, but only 1 Name.

Yeremyah 23:26-27, "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Yes, they are prophets of the deceit of their own minds plan and scheme, to cause My people to eforget My Name through their dreams, which they tell every man to his neighbor, just as their fathers have forgotten My Name for Baal."

BAAL (DEITY) [Hebrew - baal] . Canaanite storm and fertility god. The name, which means “lord, ” is an epithet of the god Hadad (lit. “thunderer” ). Well-known from the OT, he is now extremely well-attested in the Ugaritic texts, in addition to being mentioned in other ancient texts.
Freedman, David Noel: The Anchor Bible Dictionary. New York : Doubleday, 1996, c1992, S. 1:546

BA´AL (ba'al; Heb. ba?al, “lord, possessor”).
1. A common name for god among the Phoenicians; also the name of their chief male god. See Gods, False.
Unger, Merrill Frederick ; Harrison, R. K. ; Vos, Howard Frederic ; Barber, Cyril J. ; Unger, Merrill Frederick: The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Rev. and updated ed. Chicago : Moody Press, 1988


Baal (Heb. ba?al) DEITY
The Canaanite storm- and fertility-god. As an epithet for various West Semitic deities, especially Hadad, the name means “lord,” designating a legal state of ownership or social superiority. With the obvious exception of Yahweh, Baal is the most significant deity in the OT.
Freedman, David Noel ; Myers, Allen C. ; Beck, Astrid B.: Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible. Grand Rapids, Mich. : W.B. Eerdmans, 2000


BAAL [BAY uhl] (lord, master) — the name of one or more false gods, a place, and two people in the Old Testament:
1. A fertility and nature god of the Canaanites and Phoenicians. Also see Gods, Pagan.
Youngblood, Ronald F. ; Bruce, F. F. ; Harrison, R. K. ; Thomas Nelson Publishers: Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary. Nashville : T. Nelson, 1995

Yeremyah 12:14-17, "This is what Yahweh says against all My evil neighbors who touch the inheritance which I have caused My people Israyl to inherit: Behold, I will pluck them up from off their land, and I will pluck up the house of Yahdah from among them. And it will come to pass, after I have plucked them out, that I will return and have compassion on them, and bring them back; everyone to his aheritage and everyone to his land. And it will come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of My people, to vow by My Name, saying; As surely as Yahweh lives--as they once taught My people to vow by Baal; Lord--then they will be established in the midst of My people. But if they do not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, says Yahweh."

Yeremyah 16:19-21, "O Yahweh, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in athe day of affliction, the Gentiles will come to You from the ends of the earth, and will say: Surely our fathers have inherited nothing but lies and vanity; worthless, powerless gods, of no use at all! Do men bmake gods for themselves? Yes, but they are powerless! Therefore behold, I will make them to know--this time I will teach them My power and might; and they will know that My Name is Yahweh!"

Exodus 34:5-7, "Then Yahweh descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the Name of YAHWEH. Yahweh passed in front of him, and proclaimed: YAHWEH, YAHWEH Almighty, merciful and compassionate, longsuffering, and abounding in righteousness and truth. Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity, and transgression, and sin; but by no means leaving unpunished those who are guilty; Who visits the sin of the fathers upon the children and the children's children, to the third and fourth generation."

Yahyl 2:32, "And whoever will call with the Name of Yahweh will be delivered; for in Mount Zion in Yerusalem there will be deliverance, as Yahweh has said, among the iremnant who has escaped of those whom Yahweh calls."

Psalm 118:26, "Blessed be He Who comes in the Name of Yahweh!.."

Isayah 65:15, "And the names of your gods will remain as a trap to My chosen; for Yahweh our Father will slay you, but he will give His servants a Name that will remain forever."

Zephanyah 3:9, "Yes, at that time I will return to the peoples a pure language, so that all of them may call on the Name of Yahweh, and serve Him with one accord"

Talmud - Mas. Baba Metzia 59b

We learnt elsewhere: If he cut it into separate tiles, placing sand between each tile: R. Eliezer declared it clean, and the Sages declared it unclean; and this was the oven of ‘Aknai.1 Why [the oven of] ‘Aknai? — Said Rab Judah in Samuel's name: [It means] that they encompassed it with arguments2 as a snake, and proved it unclean. It has been taught: On that day R. Eliezer brought forward every imaginable argument ,3 but they did not accept them. Said he to them: ‘If the halachah agrees with me, let this carob-tree prove it!’ Thereupon the carob-tree was torn a hundred cubits out of its place — others affirm, four hundred cubits. ‘No proof can be brought from a carob-tree,’ they retorted. Again he said to them: ‘If the halachah agrees with me, let the stream of water prove it!’ Whereupon the stream of water flowed backwards — ‘No proof
can be brought from a stream of water,’ they rejoined. Again he urged: ‘If the halachah agrees with me, let the walls of the schoolhouse prove it,’ whereupon the walls inclined to fall. But R. Joshua rebuked them, saying: ‘When scholars are engaged in a halachic dispute, what have ye to interfere?’ Hence they did not fall, in honour of R. Joshua, nor did they resume the upright, in honour of R. Eliezer; and they are still standing thus inclined. Again he said to them: ‘If the halachah agrees with me, let it be proved from Heaven!’ Whereupon a Heavenly Voice cried out: ‘Why do ye dispute with R. Eliezer, seeing that in all matters the halachah agrees with him!’ But R. Joshua arose and exclaimed: ‘It is not in heaven.’4 What did he mean by this? — Said R. Jeremiah: That the Torah had already been given at Mount Sinai; we pay no attention to a Heavenly Voice, because Thou hast long since written in the Torah at Mount Sinai, After the majority must one incline.5R. Nathan met Elijah6 and asked him: What did the Holy One, Blessed be He, do in that hour? — He laughed [with joy], he replied, saying, ‘My sons have defeated Me, My sons have defeated Me.’ It was said: On that day all objects which R. Eliezer had declared clean were brought and burnt in fire.7 Then they took a vote and excommunicated him.

Later we will factually see where the thought pattern behind words in red originated.

This next reading is the origin of the ban on the Name of the Most High: Yahweh

Talmud - Mas. Sotah 38a
Another [Baraitha] taught: ‘On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel’ — with the use of
the Shem Hameforash.15 You say that it means with the Tetragrammaton; but perhaps that is not so and a substituted name was used!16 There is a text to say: So shall they put My name17 — My name which is unique to Me. It is possible to think that [the Shem Hameforash was also used] in places outside the Temple; but it is stated here, ‘So shall they put My name’ and elsewhere it is stated: To put His name there18 — as in this latter passage it denotes in the Temple so also in the former passage it denotes in the Temple. R. Joshiah says: [This deduction] is unnecessary; behold it states: In every place where I cause My name to be remembered I will come unto thee.19 Can it enter your mind that every place is intended?20 But the text must be transposed thus: In every place where I will come unto thee and bless thee will I cause My name to be remembered; and where will I come unto thee and bless thee? In the Temple; there, in the Temple, will I cause My name to be remembered. Another [Baraitha] teaches: ‘On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel’ — I have here only the children of Israel; whence is it that proselytes, women and enfranchised slaves [are included]? There is a text to state, Ye shall say unto them21 — i.e., to all of them.

"but perhaps that is not so and a substituted name was used,"
No Scripture says anything like this at all, a Rabbi comes along and says, " "but perhaps that is not so," and after that Yahweh's Name is hidden. However it is not that FOOLISH and innocent, as it was on purpose that this was contrived:

Yeremyah 23:26-27, "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Yes, they are prophets of the deceit of their own minds; Who devise; plan and scheme, to cause My people to eforget My Name through their dreams, which they tell every man to his neighbor, just as their fathers have forgotten My Name for Baal; (Lord.)"

The Name YHWH was removed at least 6,828 times and replaced with LORD or GOD. You can tell where it was because ALL the letters are capital where YHWH was. The Masorites added vowel points to the Hebrew manuscripts (not in the "J" writings," (Called J (Y) for it's use of YHWH), but in the next oldest, the "E" writings (for it's use of Elohim). The vowel points replaced Yahweh's Name with Adonal = Lord and Elohim = God(s).It is forbidden by Yahweh to hide His Name by the way. However as we seen in the Talmud, to the Rabbis this is of no effect: "we pay no attention to a Heavenly Voice." Then we come to modern times when this false practice is still used, I have a Bible that says, quote: "this tradition is still used".

Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them: And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"

Talmud - Mas. Yoma 39b
His brethren [that year] the priests forbore to mention the Ineffable Name in pronouncing the [priestly] blessing.4 Our Rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot [‘For the Lord’] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-coloured strap become white;

Numbers 6:23-27, "Speak to Aaron and his sons, saying; This is how you are to bless the children of Israyl. Say to them; YAHWEH BLESS YOU AND KEEP YOU. YAHWEH MAKE HIS FACE SHINE UPON YOU AND BE MERCIFUL TO YOU. YAHWEH LIFT UP HIS COUNTENANCE UPON YOU, AND GIVE YOU PEACE. So they will put MY NAME on the children of Israyl, and I will bless them."

This is the Command that the "priests forbore", all supposedly because that "Rabbi" said, "but perhaps that is not so." Note "nor did the crimson-coloured strap become white," this was the sign that thier sins were forgiven. Also the Talmud RECORDS that after they killed Yahshua, from that time until the destruction Bayith Yahweh (Solomon's Temple) the crimson colored strap NEVER turned white again.

Yeremyah 16:19-21, "O Yahweh, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in athe day of affliction, the Gentiles will come to You from the ends of the earth, and will say: Surely our fathers have inherited nothing but lies and vanity; worthless, powerless gods, of no use at all! Do men make gods for themselves? Yes, but they are powerless! Therefore behold, I will make them to know--this time I will teach them My power and might; and they will know that My Name is Yahweh!"

Isayah 52:6, "Therefore My people will know My Name; Therefore they will know in that day that I am He Who speaks. Behold, it is I!"

Isayah 42:8, "I am Yahweh, that is MY NAME; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."

Psalm 5:11, "But let all those who trust in You rejoice! Let them ever shout for joy, because of Your protection of them! Let those who love Your Name, Yahweh, be joyful in You!"

Psalm 83:18, "Let men know that You, Whose Name Alone is YAHWEH, are the Supreme Head over all the earth!"

Exodus 3:15, "God (Yl) said moreover to Moses, "You shall tell the children of Israel this, 'Yahweh, the God (Yl) of your fathers, the God (Yl) of Abraham, the God (Yl) of Isaac, and the God (Yl) of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations."

In ancient Hebrew there were no written vowels, thus a word can not start with a vowel, a vowel can be used in pronounciation, but a ancient Hebrew word can not start with a letter that is not in the written language.

Also Yl or El does not properly translate as "God" it means strength.

Exodus 23:13, "In all things I have said to you, be careful to do them, and make no mention of the name of gods (elohim), neither let it be heard from your mouth."

Isayah 65:11, "But you are those who forsake Yahweh, who forget My holy mountain, who prepare a table for gad (troop) and who furnish a drink offering for that destiny."

1409. gad
gad: fortune, good fortune
Original Word: גָּד
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: gad
Phonetic Spelling: (gawd)
Short Definition: fortunate

1409. gad
Brown-Driver-Briggs
1. 1. noun [masculine] fortune, good fortune

2. proper name, masculine god of fortune (Arabic WeSkizzen iii. 171; גד named often in Phoenician & Aramaic inscriptions, & found in Phoenician & Aramaic proper name

Side Note:

1171. Baal Gad
Baal Gad: "Baal of fortune," a place near Mt. Hermon
Original Word: בַּ֫עַל
Part of Speech: Proper Name Location
Transliteration: Baal Gad
Phonetic Spelling: (bah'-al gawd)
Short Definition: Baal-gad

Brown-Driver-Briggs
בַּ֫עַל גַּד proper name, of a location Joshua 11:17; Joshua 12:7; Joshua 13:5 (D), where Baal was worshipped as Gad, god of fortune, a city in the בִּקְעָה of Lebanon, under Mt. Hermon; either modern Bâniâs, Greek Paneas, NT Caesarea Philippi, where a grotto of Pan took the place of the ancient worship of Gad, RobBR iii. 410 TristrTpg 271; or „âsbêyâ BdPal 297 Di; possibly = בעל חרמון compare Thes RobBR iii. 409.

Psalm 45:17, "I will make Your Name to be remembered in all generations! Therefore shall the nations praise You for ever and ever!"

Proverbs 30:4, "Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound up the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His Name? And what is the Name of His Son? Tell me, if you know!"

Yahchanan (John) 17:6, "I have manifested Your Name to the men that You gave Me out of the world. They were yours, and You gave them to Me; and they have kept Your word."
 
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danschance

Guest
#8
All I know is I believe in Jesus! :)
Amen! There is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved Jesus is our hope, our salvation and our God.:D
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#9
Hebrews 4:8 (KJ21)8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterwards have spoken of another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (ASV) | 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (AMP) |
8 [This mention of a rest was not a reference to their entering into Canaan.] For if Joshua had given them rest, He [God] would not speak afterward about another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (CEB) |
8 If Joshua gave the Israelites rest, God wouldn’t have spoken about another day later on.

Hebrews 4:8 (CJB) |
8 For if Y’hoshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later of another “day.”

Hebrews 4:8 (CEV) |
8 If Joshua had really given the people rest, there would not be any need for God to talk about another day of rest.

Hebrews 4:8 (DARBY) | 8 For if Jesus had brought them into rest, he would not have spoken afterwards about another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (DRA)
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, he would never have afterwards spoken of another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (ERV) | 8 We know that he would not have spoken afterward of another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (EXB)
|
8 [L For; Now] If Joshua [C Moses’ successor, who led God’s people into the Promised Land;Josh. 3—4] had ·led the people into that [L given them] rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (GNV) | 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not after this have spoken of another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (GW) | 8 If Joshua had given the people rest, God would not have spoken about another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (GNT) | 8 If Joshua had given the people the rest that God had promised, God would not have spoken later about another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (HCSB) | 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.

Hebrews 4:8-10 (PHILLIPS) | 8-10 For if Joshua had given them the rest, we should not find God saying, at a much later date, “today”. There still exists, therefore, a full and complete rest for the people of God. And he who experiences his real rest is resting from his own work as fully as God from his.

Hebrews 4:8 (JUB) | 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then he would not afterward have spoken of another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (KJV) | 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (AKJV) | 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (LEB) | 8 For if Joshua had caused them to rest, he would not have spoken about another day after these things.

Hebrews 4:8 (TLB) | 8 This new place of rest he is talking about does not mean the land of Israel that Joshua led them into. If that were what God meant, he would not have spoken long afterwards about “today” being the time to get in.

Hebrews 4:8-11 (MSG) | 8-11 And so this is still a live promise. It wasn’t canceled at the time of Joshua; otherwise, God wouldn’t keep renewing the appointment for “today.” The promise of “arrival” and “rest” is still there for God’s people. God himself is at rest. And at the end of the journey we’ll surely rest with God. So let’s keep at it and eventually arrive at the place of rest, not drop out through some sort of disobedience.

Hebrews 4:8 (MOUNCE) | 8
For
gar
if
ei
Joshua
Iēsous
had
given
them
autos
rest
katapauō
, God
would
an
not
ou
have
spoken
laleō
of
peri
another
allos
time
hēmera
after
meta
that
houtos
.​
Hebrews 4:8 (NOG) | 8 If Joshua had given the people rest, God would not have spoken about another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (NASB) | 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.

Hebrews 4:8 (NCV) | 8 We know that Joshua did not lead the people into that rest, because God spoke later about another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (NET) | 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken afterward about another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (NIRV) | 8 Suppose Joshua had given them rest. If he had, God would not have spoken later about another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (NIV) | 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (NIVUK) | 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (NKJV) | 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (NLV) | 8 If Joshua had led those people into God’s rest, He would not have told of another day after that.

Hebrews 4:8 (NLT) | 8 Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come.

Hebrews 4:8 (NRSV) | 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later about another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (NRSVA) | 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later about another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (NRSVACE) | 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later about another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (NRSVCE) | 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later about another day.

Yehudim in Moshiach 4:8 (OJB) | 8 For if Yehoshua [ben Nun] had brought them to a place of menuchah (rest), Hashem would not have spoken of another "Yom" after that [TEHILLIM 95:7].

Hebrews 4:8 (RSV) | 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later of another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (RSVCE) | 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later of another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (VOICE) | 8 Now if Joshua had been able to lead those who followed him into God’s rest, would God then have spoken this way?

Hebrews 4:8 (WEB) | 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (WE) | 8 If Joshua had led those people to rest, God would not have talked later about another day.

Hebrews 4:8 (WYC) | 8 For if Jesus had given rest to them, he should never speak of other after this day [after that day].
 
D

danschance

Guest
#10
There is lie after lie in your post, no doubt there may be some religious groups who may insist on the apparent errors that you listed, but the Jehovah's Witnesses do not proclaim any of the errors that you listed apart from Error 8. Some of your so called Errors aren't even errors but in fact undeniable truths.



For one Jehovah's Witnesses do not insist that they must call God "Jehovah", different Jehovah's Witnesses from all around the world call God by there own languages translation on the tetragrammaton YHWH, below are a list of some;

CHIHOWA: Choctaw
IÁHVE: Portuguese
IEHOUA: Mer
IEHOVA: Gilbertese; Hawaiian; Hiri Motu; Kerewo; Kiwai; Marquesas; Motu; Panaieti (Misima); Rarotongan; Tahitian; Toaripi
IEHOVAN: Saibai
IEOVA: Kuanua; Wedau
IHOVA: Aneityum
IHVH: French
IOVA: Malekula (Kuliviu); Malekula (Pangkumu); Malekula (Uripiv)
JAHOWA: Batak-Toba
JAHUÈ: Chacobo
JAKWE: (Ki)Sukuma
JAHVE: Hungarian
JEHOBA: Kipsigis; Mentawai
JEHOFA: Tswana
JEHOVA: Croatian; German; Kélé (Gabon); Lele (Manus Island); Nandi; Nauruan; Nukuoro
JEHOVÁ: Spanish
JEHÔVA: Fang; Tsimihety
JEHOVAH: Dutch; Efik; English; Kalenjin; Malagasy; Narrinyeri; Ojibwa
JEOVA: Kusaie (Kosraean)
JIHOVA: Naga (Angami); Naga (Konyak); Naga (Lotha); Naga (Mao); Naga (Ntenyi); Naga (Sangtam); Rotuman
JIOUA: Mortlock
JIOVA: Fijian
JIWHEYẸWHE: Gu (Alada)
SIHOVA: Tongan
UYEHOVA: Zulu
YAHOWA: Thai
YAHVE: Ila
YAVE: Kongo
YAWE: Bobangi; Bolia; Dholuo; Lingala; Mongo (Lolo); (Lo)Ngandu; (Lo)Ntumba; (Ke)Sengele
YEHÓA: Awabakal
YEHOFA: Southern Sotho
YEHOVA: Chokwe; Chuana (Tlapi); (Ki)Kalanga; Logo; Luba; Lugbara; (Chi)Luimbi; (Chi)Lunda (Ndembu); (Chi)Luvale; Santo (Hog Harbor); Tiv; Umbundu; (Isi)Xhosa
YEHOVAH: Bube; Mohawk; Nguna (Efate); Nguna (Tongoa)
YEHOWA: Ga; Laotian; (Ki)Songe; Tshiluba
YEKOVA: Zande
YEOBA: Kuba (Inkongo)
YEOHOWA: Korean
YHWH: Hebrew
YOWO: Lomwe
ZAHOVA: Chin (Haka-Lai)



JW's do not believe or teach this, they understand that the true verbal rendering of the name has been lost, they themselves teach this in there organization.



JW's also do not teach this, they do however insert the translation of the tetragrammaton into places where it is either clear it's in reference to the Father Jehovah or when the bible writer at the time was quoting from the Old Testament.



The JW's again do not teach this, they understand that the NT was written in ancient Greek.



This is not an "Error", it is undeniable scriptural fact that Jesus both used and was sent down to glorify the Fathers name Jehovah/YHWH.

(John 17:4,6) "...I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do...“I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word..."

(John 12:28) "...Father, glorify your name.” Therefore a voice came out of heaven: “I both glorified [it] and will glorify [it] again...”

So Jesus glorifed the Fathers name, based on scripture what is the Fathers name? “I am Jehovah. That is my name" (Isaiah 42:8)



JW's do not teach or believe any of the above.



The Son of Gods name is Jesus, the JW's believe this fact and reject that we "must" use the correct name for Jesus and God like you said above. One thing that we do understand is that Jesus Christ wasn't called by the name Jesus when he walked the Earth.



The one and only point that holds truth to the JW's belief, they do reject the trinity and believe that it has pagan roots, which there is an overwhelming amount of apparent evidence for.

The most intelligent thing you said on your thread is that "Error breeds more error" which is clearly true in your case, you should do more research on a certain group before you identify them as a main culprit for something which they weren't guilty for in the first place, error does indeed breed more error.
JW's are part of the sacred name cults and Sacred name cult groups are not at all identical. In fact Sacred Namers vary quite a bit from one group to the next. The points I listed is an attempt to describe the beliefs of this rather diverse group. You are correct in stating that JW's do not conform to all the points I listed but you are also wrong in stating that they are not Sacred Namers.

Here is a JW website that refers to Jehovah as the divine name.
The Divine Name—Its Use and Its Meaning - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site

Look at this excerpt from the JW website above.
However, many translations leave out the name Jehovah, replacing it with such titles as “Lord” or “Eternal.” What belongs in this verse? A title or the name Jehovah?

Clearly, the name Jehovah belongs in the Bible. Knowing its meaning and using it freely in our worship are powerful aids in drawing closer to our heavenly Father, Jehovah.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,783
3,684
113
#11
It is cultish to pull apart the way others want to follow Christ as you are doing, and saying only you are right. If you would listen to others in the way God asks you to instead of sitting in judgment, you might learn something or you might find more reason for your position.

We are told what to look for to see if someone is a Christian. Scripture says by their love you will know them. Scripture says that it is through Christ we are saved. Scripture does not say that you can tell a Christian by the name he uses for God. I don't think it is right to condemn others based on what he believes about the name of our Lord.
So you are admitting that the SNM is cultish?
 
V

Veritas

Guest
#12
What does the name "Jesus" mean?

Y'shua means Yah is salvation. Please remember that vowel pointing in Hebrew/Aramaic didn't come about until well after the time of Messiah.
 
P

phil112

Guest
#13
...................... Scripture says................... Scripture says.................. Scripture does not say ..............
Kind of ironic how you rely on what the scripture says, that is right up 'til Paul tells us it is okay to regard every day alike if we want to. If you followed that, you wouldn't be able to claim the sabbath as having preemenince over any other day.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#14
The Sacred Namers create a controversy where none exists in scripture. They insist we use a specific special name for God, yet there is not a single verse in the bible that even implies this! It is just a tempest in a tea cup.
 
Jan 13, 2014
960
16
0
#15
There is no magic words to save you.
Psa 31:23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.
Psa 31:24 Be of good courage, and he shall strengthen your heart, all ye that hope in the LORD.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#16
The Sacred Namers create a controversy where none exists in scripture. They insist we use a specific special name for God, yet there is not a single verse in the bible that even implies this! It is just a tempest in a tea cup.
There are many, but here is one:

Yahyl 2:32, "And whoever will call with the Name of Yahweh will be delivered; for in Mount Zion in Yerusalem there will be deliverance, as Yahweh has said, among the iremnant who has escaped of those whom Yahweh calls."
 
D

didymos

Guest
#17
The Sacred Name Cult or Sacred Name Movement or Sacred Namers (SN) are groups or individuals who insist we must pronounce the correct name of God and insist we shun incorrect names for God. The Jehovah's Witnesses are the largest group of SN'ers as they insist we must Call God Jehovah. They even produce their own bible where they have inserted the name Jehovah into the New Testament. Today the SNers insist we should only use the correct hebrew names for God and Jesus. (...)



Stop that. Stop it, will you stop that!
Now look, no one is to stone ANYONE until I blow this whistle.
Even...and I want to make this absolutely clear...even if they DO say 'Jehovah.' ;)
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#18


Stop that. Stop it, will you stop that!
Now look, no one is to stone ANYONE until I blow this whistle.
Even...and I want to make this absolutely clear...even if they DO say 'Jehovah.' ;)
Its funny to bring the pharisees up, as they were the ones who banned speaking Yahweh's Name, on threat od beating, prison, or death. I dont follow the Pharisees by not saying His name, and BTW they replaced Yahweh with Lord.


Talmud - Mas. Yoma 39b
His brethren [that year] the priests forbore to mention the Ineffable Name in pronouncing the [priestly] blessing.4 Our Rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot [‘For the Lord’] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-coloured strap become white."

Pharisee trial of them trying to prosecute a man for using YAHWEH.

Talmud - Mas. Sanhedrin 56a
THE WHOLE DAY [OF THE TRIAL] THE WITNESSES ARE EXAMINED BY MEANS OF A SUBSTITUTE FOR THE DIVINE NAME, THUS, ‘MAY JOSE SMITE JOSE.’1 WHEN THE TRIAL WAS FINISHED, THE ACCUSED WAS NOT EXECUTED ON THIS EVIDENCE, BUT ALL PERSONS WERE REMOVED [FROM COURT], AND THE CHIEF WITNESS WAS TOLD, ‘STATE LITERALLY WHAT YOU HEARD. THEREUPON HE DID SO, [USING THE DIVINE NAME]. THE JUDGES THEN AROSE AND RENT THEIR GARMENTS, WHICH RENT WAS NOT TO BE RESEWN. THE SECOND WITNESS STATED; I TOO HAVE HEARD THUS’ [BUT NOT UTTERING THE DIVINE NAME], AND THE THIRD SAYS: ‘I TOO HEARD THUS’.
GEMARA. It has been taught: [The blasphemer is not punished] unless he ‘blesses’ the Name, by the Name2 From the verse, How shall I curse [Ekkob]5 whom God hath not cursed;6 whilst the formal prohibition is contained in the verse, thou shalt not revile God.7 But perhaps it means ‘to pierce,’8 as it is written, [So Jehoiada the priest took a chest,] and bored [wa-yikkob]9 a hole in the lid of it,10 the formal injunction against this being the verses, Ye shall destroy the names of them [idols] out of that place. Ye shall not do so unto the Lord your God?11 — The Name must be ‘blessed’ by the Name, which is absent here. But perhaps the text refers to the putting of two slips of parchment, each bearing the Divine Name, together, and piercing them both? — In that case one Name is pierced after the other.12 But perhaps it prohibits the engraving of the Divine Name on the Point of a knife and piercing therewith [the Divine Name written on a slip of parchment]? — In that case, the point of the knife pierces, not the Divine Name. But perhaps it refers to the pronunciation of the ineffable Name, as it is written, And Moses and Aaron took these men which are expressed [nikkebu]13 by their names;14 the formal prohibition being contained in the verse, Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God?15 — Firstly, the Name must be ‘blessed’ by the Name, which is absent here; and secondly, it is a prohibition in the form of a positive command, which is not deemed to be a prohibition at all.16 An alternative answer is this: The Writ saith, [And the Israelitish woman's son] blasphemed wa-yikkob17 [and cursed],18 proving that blasphemy [nokeb] denotes cursing. But perhaps it teaches that both offences must be perpetrated?19 You cannot think so, because it is written, Bring forth him that hath cursed,20 and not ‘him that hath blasphemed and cursed’, proving that one offence only is alluded to. Our Rabbis taught: [Any man that curseth his God, shall bear his sin.21 It would have been sufficient to say],"
 
D

didymos

Guest
#19
Its funny to bring the pharisees up, as they were the ones who banned speaking Yahweh's Name, on threat od beating, prison, or death. I dont follow the Pharisees by not saying His name, and BTW they replaced Yahweh with Lord (...)
You taking my post seriously is even funnier... :D
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#20
You taking my post seriously is even funnier... :D
I assumed you were poking fun, but I took advantage to show that in reality not "showtime at the Apollo" that the Pharisees are the one behind all these people that dont and wont speak the name of Yahweh. Before they banned it the name was spoken by believers. They were even responsible for the replacement of YHWH in Scripture with Lord.