Was Paul Really A False Apostle?

[The_highwayman]

It is obvious to me at least,hat aMessianic is studying & debating from a Judaic point of view.

One thing is for certain, there are covenants in the Bible that are for only the Jews today and many gentiles are only under Grace.

Stop attempting to convert and bash someone, because you are unable to discern that they are seeing things from a Judaic perspective.

 

[Richie_2uk]

Oh here we go again, Casting doubt amongst cc, over a stupid video claim. You do know people? that anyone can make a video and claim people are wrong? and silly people will believe it? The only one is casting doubt is the op. for posting stupid video. Look you either believe in God, or you believe in the bible or you don't. posting doubt amongst Christians here is just stupidity. people who posts this ridiculas youtube videos claiming this or that. and casting doubt on the world, are not better that the person who made these videos.

You are either with God or against him? your choice. Don't be posting stupid videos to cast doubt on Christians, and bring them down all because of your doubt and disbelief.

 

[crossnote]

Who invented the concept of the "Judaizer"? And, what is your definition of "Judaizer"?

2450.Ἰουδαΐζω Ioudaizō; from 2453; to Judaize:—live like Jews(1). NASB Dictionary

Paul addressed three distinct areas of concern about the message of the false teachers. These heretics have been labeled “Judaizers” because they believed that one had to become a Jew before he could become a Christian (cf. 6:12). His concerns revolved around the charges of the Judaizers:
1.Paul was not truly an Apostle like the Twelve (cf. Acts 1:21–22); therefore, he was dependent on their authority or at least the authority of the Mother Church in Jerusalem.
2.Paul’s message was different from theirs, and thus, false. This seems directly related to the concept of “justification by faith apart from the Law.” The Apostles in Jerusalem were still very Jewish in their personal lives.NTS:MR

Hope that helped.

 

[aMessianic]

It is obvious to me at least,hat aMessianic is studying & debating from a Judaic point of view.

One thing is for certain, there are covenants in the Bible that are for only the Jews today and many gentiles are only under Grace.

Stop attempting to convert and bash someone, because you are unable to discern that they are seeing things from a Judaic perspective.

Thank you for your comments, brother.

It might surprise you to learn that I am ethnically a Gentile who believes that YHVH (and Messiah) gave one Message to all mankind, Jew and Gentile alike ... a message of salvation obtained through a true, loving relationship with Them (Father & Husband), expressed through faith, trust, repentance, faithfulness, and obedience (traits of a loving, true wife).

 

[aMessianic]

2450.Ἰουδαΐζω Ioudaizō; from 2453; to Judaize:—live like Jews(1). NASB Dictionary

Paul addressed three distinct areas of concern about the message of the false teachers. These heretics have been labeled “Judaizers” because they believed that one had to become a Jew before he could become a Christian (cf. 6:12). His concerns revolved around the charges of the Judaizers:
1.Paul was not truly an Apostle like the Twelve (cf. Acts 1:21–22); therefore, he was dependent on their authority or at least the authority of the Mother Church in Jerusalem.
2.Paul’s message was different from theirs, and thus, false. This seems directly related to the concept of “justification by faith apart from the Law.” The Apostles in Jerusalem were still very Jewish in their personal lives.NTS:MR

Hope that helped.

Thanks. Now, who originated the label of "Judaizer"?

 

[crossnote]

Oh here we go again, Casting doubt amongst cc, over a stupid video claim. You do know people? that anyone can make a video and claim people are wrong? and silly people will believe it? The only one is casting doubt is the op. for posting stupid video. Look you either believe in God, or you believe in the bible or you don't. posting doubt amongst Christians here is just stupidity. people who posts this ridiculas youtube videos claiming this or that. and casting doubt on the world, are not better that the person who made these videos.

You are either with God or against him? your choice. Don't be posting stupid videos to cast doubt on Christians, and bring them down all because of your doubt and disbelief.

I think the op only brought out doubts about the apostle Paul that was already there. The bottom line is that there are some here who don't believe Scripture, both OT and NT is fully inspired by God since they reject the Pauline writings.

 

[crossnote]

Thanks. Now, who originated the label of "Judaizer"?

I guess Paul did...

14 Αλλ But 235 C — οτε when 3753 B — ειδον I saw 1492 VAAI1S 5627 οτι that 3754 C — ουκ ♦ 3756 T — ορθοποδουσιν they walk not uprightly 3716 VPAI3P 5719 προς according to 4314 P — την the 3588 DASF — αληθειαν truth 225 NASF — του of the 3588 DGSN — ευαγγελιου glad tidings, 2098 NGSN — ειπον I said 2036 VAAI1S 5627 τω ⋄ 3588 DDSM — Πετρω to Peter 4074 NDSM — εμπροσθεν before 1715 P — παντων all, 3956 JGPM — Ει If 1487 C — συ thou, 4771 RP2NS — Ιουδαιος a Jew 2453 JNSM — υπαρχων being, 5225 VPAP-SNM 5723 εθνικως nation-like 1483 B — ζης livest 2198 VPAI2S 5719 και and 2532 C — ουκ not 3756 T — Ιουδαΐκως Jewishly, 2452 B — τι why 5101 RI-ASN — τα the 3588 DAPN — εθνη nations 1484 NAPN — αναγκαζεις dost thou compel 315 VPAI2S 5719 Ιουδαΐζειν to judaize? 2450 VPAN 5721

In Gal. 2:14

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they were not behaving consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “If you, although you are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you try to force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

 

[aMessianic]

I think the op only brought out doubts about the apostle Paul that was already there. The bottom line is that there are some here who don't believe Scripture, both OT and NT is fully inspired by God since they reject the Pauline writings.

If I may rephrase that from my POV:

"The bottom line is that there are some here who don't believe certain writings are Scripture, and have a different OT and NT canon considered 'inspired'. There are others who accept those additional writings as Scripture, and have a canon which differs from the former".

 

[crossnote]

If I may rephrase that from my POV:

"The bottom line is that there are some here who don't believe certain writings are Scripture, and have a different OT and NT canon considered 'inspired'. There are others who accept those additional writings as Scripture, and have a canon which differs from the former".

It's really not a matter of POV,

Galatians 1:7-9 not that there really is another gospel, but there are some who are disturbing you and wanting to distort the gospel of Christ.
But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell!
As we have said before, and now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be condemned to hell!

 

[aMessianic]

I guess Paul did... Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they were not behaving consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “If you, although you are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you try to force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

Are the twelve apostles Judaisers?

 

[aMessianic]

It's really not a matter of POV,

Sure it is. I can easily say (using your wording) "The bottom line is that there are some here who don't believe Scripture, both OT and NT is fully inspired by God since they reject the writings of the prophets Sirach and Enoch" but I suspect you wouldn't like it

Galatians 1:7-9 not that there really is another gospel, but there are some who are disturbing you and wanting to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell!
As we have said before, and now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be condemned to hell!

I believe Paul was preaching here his faith-only message against the Messianic twelve apostles with their faith and obedience message; note his sarcasm he uses against them later in the letter, and his self exaltation, and his curses (vs Messiah's command to bless, not curse).

 

[crossnote]

Sure it is. I can easily say (using your wording) "The bottom line is that there are some here who don't believe Scripture, both OT and NT is fully inspired by God since they reject the writings of the prophets Sirach and Enoch" but I suspect you wouldn't like it

I believe Paul was preaching here his faith-only message against the Messianic twelve apostles with their faith and obedience message; note his sarcasm he uses against them later in the letter, and his self exaltation, and his curses (vs Messiah's command to bless, not curse).

My swan song to you...

Titus 3:9-11 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

 

[aMessianic]

My swan song to you...

Titus 3:9-11 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

And mine to you, the teaching I prefer ...

Matthew 5:44 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you ...

 

[phil112]

............I believe Paul was preaching here his faith-only message against the Messianic twelve apostles...............

I believe you are as wrong as a man can be.

As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[aMessianic]

I believe you are as wrong as a man can be.

I don't believe in listening to Pharisees which Messiah clearly warned me against, my friend.

I do not engage in or accept pro-Pauline curses.

 

[chubbena]

Thank you. You're welcome to share your thoughts on the subject, brother.

Originally I just wanted to see what everyone has to say.
My thoughts? To prove Paul's teachings are inspired by the Holy Spirit I first checked if he is in line with the scripture i.e. the OT - yes I did what the Bereans did - as well as Yeshua's. At first I thought he contradicts much but the more I read the more I see he's in agreement. The more I see he's in agreement the more the other "believers" call me names. Then I know I'm on the right track.
Question for you - what if your understanding of Paul's teachings is incorrect due to the poisoning at the "evangelical" church in your early years?

 

[aMessianic]

Originally I just wanted to see what everyone has to say.
My thoughts? To prove Paul's teachings are inspired by the Holy Spirit I first checked if he is in line with the scripture i.e. the OT - yes I did what the Bereans did - as well as Yeshua's. At first I thought he contradicts much but the more I read the more I see he's in agreement. The more I see he's in agreement the more the other "believers" call me names. Then I know I'm on the right track.
Question for you - what if your understanding of Paul's teachings is incorrect due to the poisoning at the "evangelical" church in your early years?

Shalom, friend.

I earnestly desire and seek out correction, and for anyone to show the errors of my reasoning. In fact, I've earnestly prayed for that very thing, that, if I am in error, that YHVH would show me clearly so, and bring people into my life that can guide me so. But I have yet to encounter such correction. For example, I've brought up many things in this very thread that nobody has satisfactorily argued against in a rational manner with references (but they instead resort to ad hominem attacks and red herrings).

I do not seek to be different and out of the mainstream in this area. It is difficult enough as it is to be Messianic, but to be a non-Pauline Messianic ...

So, yes, if you can do so, please be my guest and try to convince me

 

[The_highwayman]

Thank you for your comments, brother.

It might surprise you to learn that I am ethnically a Gentile who believes that YHVH (and Messiah) gave one Message to all mankind, Jew and Gentile alike ... a message of salvation obtained through a true, loving relationship with Them (Father & Husband), expressed through faith, trust, repentance, faithfulness, and obedience (traits of a loving, true wife).

I got you the minute you started posting, brother! From your other comments, I also discerned you to be a gentile, so no worries.

 

[aMessianic]

I got you the minute you started posting, brother! From your other comments, I also discerned you to be a gentile, so no worries.

Thank you for your comment, then

 

[phil112]

I don't believe in listening to Pharisees which Messiah clearly warned me against, my friend.

I do not engage in or accept pro-Pauline curses.

Tell me this, do you discount all of Paul's teaching, or just selected parts of it? Do you accept his veracity, or is he a liar in everything he says? Why is he in the bible if what he says isn't truth?

3 simple questions. Shouldn't take you too long to lay out the answers.