You have completely missed the point I was trying to make, that simply because someone created something doesn't make him the "Creator", you really aren't trying. Remember the Steve Jobs illustration, there is no other "creator" of the Apple Iphone other than Steve Jobs, not even the single employee can say he was the "Creator", both can rightfully say they created the phone, but only Steve Jobs can say he was the Creator of the phone since it was him who designed it. So again you will not find a single verse that says Jesus is Creator, however you will with the Father. No doubt there will be passages which read Jesus created all things but this can be seen because God created things through Jesus, but just because Jesus played a role in creation doesn't imply he is the Creator or Originator.
Back at Genesis 1, it shows that God is the only Creator. God created everything. It doesn't say something else followed his orders or designs, or whatever argument you want to use that denies Jesus' deity.
God says He alone created all things.
One simple question for you Arwen4CJ, based on Hebrews 1:1,2, and also one non scripture based one.
1.) Who is the Originator of creation, or in other words who is the ultimate source of creation in the passage Hebrews 1:1,2
Since Hebrews 1:1-2 cannot be viewed apart from its context of all of Hebrews chapter 1, and all of the book of Hebrews -- I would have to say that YHWH is the ultimate source of creation, which includes both the Father and the Son. The whole triune God is the Creator and participated in doing the creating.
2.) If I obtained all the components needed to make a Iphone and made it into a working phone (after the Iphone had already been designed and made), could I claim I was the Creator and Originator of the Apple Iphone? If no then why not?
No, you wouldn't be its creator.
(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "...God...has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things..."
Hebrews 1:8-12 (NASB)
[SUP]8[/SUP]
But of the Son He says,
“Your throne,
O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of [SUP][
h][/SUP]His kingdom.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And,
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”
Colossians 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]
For [SUP][x][/SUP]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He [SUP][
y][/SUP]is before all things, and in Him all things [SUP][
z][/SUP]hold together.
Jesus is clearly the Creator in the same way that the Father is Creator. Both are Yahweh.
Your assuming things based on face value when you say Jesus must be Jehovah simply because they seem to have the same statements said about them. First of yes your correct, Proskyneo (Whether Godly worship or obeisance like) given to Jesus in Hebrews 1:6 can be applied to Jesus even though its in regards to Jehovah in Psalms 97:7, this is because all Proskyneo talked of in that account is all directed to Jehovah the Father. That very same principle can be seen in the way we pray, we pray to the Father but yet through Jesus, this is whats happening in Hebrews 1:6.
Yes, I take the Bible at face value.
Don't you find it strange that everything that is true of Jehovah is also true of Jesus...if Jesus isn't Jehovah, too? The author of Hebrews, by including those verses from the OT was making a point, and was saying that those passages in the OT were about Jesus. Since we know that they were about Jehovah, then we know that Jesus is also Jehovah.
To get any other meaning out of this text is to deny the clear meaning of the text.
Why would we be able to pray through Jesus if He isn't Yahweh? Anyway, Hebrews 1:6 is about worship, not about praying. Again, the author of Hebrews was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and was applying Psalm 97 to Jesus, and was saying that worship would be directed towards Jesus.
The fact the type of Proskyneo given to Jesus is really not true worship to Jesus but rather worship through him to the Father, can be phone in the book of Philippians.
(Philippians 2:10, 11) "...so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father..."
You brought up Philippians 2. Wonderful. I was going to bring that back up in relation to Isaiah 45. So let's examine this again.
Isaiah 45:21-25 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together.
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“In the LORD all the offspring of IsraelWill be justified and will glory.”
Philippians 2:1-11 (NASB)
2 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any [SUP][
a][/SUP]affection and compassion, [SUP]2 [/SUP]make my joy complete [SUP][
b][/SUP]by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Do nothing [SUP][
c][/SUP]from [SUP][
d][/SUP]selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; [SUP]4 [/SUP]do not
merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. [SUP]5 [/SUP]
Have this attitude [SUP][e][/SUP]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,[SUP]6 [/SUP]who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [SUP][
f][/SUP]grasped, [SUP]7 [/SUP]but [SUP][
g][/SUP]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant,
and being made in the likeness of men. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [SUP][
h][/SUP]on a cross. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him
the name which is above every name, [SUP]10 [/SUP]so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, [SUP]11 [/SUP]and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Again, when I asked you the questions about Isaiah 45, you gave me the correct answer.
Yahweh said that every knee would bow to Him and that every tongue would swear allegiance to Him, and that they would say, "only in YHWH are righteousness and strength, and this occurs in a passage that declares that YHWH is the only God, over and over and over again. Furthermore, it is in YHWH that all the offspring of Israel would be justified and will glory.
Yet in Philippians 2, we have Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, say that every knee would bow to Jesus, and that every tongue would confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.....and it is through Jesus' death on the cross that we are saved.....thus, it is in Jesus that we are justified and will glory.
If Jesus were not YHWH, Philippians 2 could not happen.
(John 14:6) '...Jesus said to him: "No one comes to the Father except through me"...'
And unless Jesus is YHWH, John 14:6 makes no sense. It also implies that Jesus is much more than just human. Think about that claim.
Hebrews 1:10-12 with relation to Psalms 102:25,26 again your merely assuming things.
That is the plain meaning of what the author of Hebrews means. It's the only meaning that makes sense in the context in which Psalm 102 was quoted.
Back to the Steve Jobs illustration, (this would work better if I waited for you to answer my question by anyways) could Steve Jobs say he made all Apple Iphones today even though he hasn't actually
physically made any? Of course because he made the phone through that single employee. Likewise the Father layed the foundation of the Earth, how did he do so? Through Jesus Christ is how (Heb 1:1,2) Thus, did Jesus by means of Jehovah also lay the foundation of the Earth? Yes! Both did, since this is the case the verse in Psalms can be applied to Jesus because its describing the same action, both the Father created those things. Does the fact both Steve Jobs and the single employee both created the iphone imply that single employee was Steve Jobs, of course not. Likewise the same applies with regard to Jesus and Jehovah.
You come to Scripture assuming that Jesus is not Jehovah. But the Bible identifies Jesus as God over and over and over again. Since there is only one God, Jehovah, then that has to mean that Jesus is also Jehovah. It has to mean that there are at least two Persons who are Jehovah, the Father and Jesus.
If you continue to deny that Jesus is Jehovah, then you have to explain away all references to Jesus as God.....and Scripture plainly calls Him God. So if Jesus isn't Jehovah, and yet is God, then you have to conclude that Jesus is either a false god or that He is some sort of demi-god. But He can't be a demi-god because Isaiah 45 and many other passages say there is no other god. We also know that Jesus is not a false god......so where does that leave us?
It means that Jesus must be Jehovah. The Father is obviously Jehovah, too. That means that Jehovah is at least two Persons.
I really wish that you could see that Jesus is Jehovah just as the Father is. Jesus is not a demi-god, and He is not a false god.