What you're doing is saying that all the times that Jehovah says "alone" in any verse that He means the same thing, regardless of context. That's not what my argument here is. I was talking specifically about the act of creating, which never can be applied to anyone other than YHWH. He created all that there is. He is eternal.
Now, maybe you are saying that YHWH (whom you think is just the Father), and a separate being, the pre-incarnate Jesus, are eternal. Is that what you believe?
Now, maybe you are saying that YHWH (whom you think is just the Father), and a separate being, the pre-incarnate Jesus, are eternal. Is that what you believe?
Moses is not YHWH -- that is obvious. The "angel" can sometimes be YHWH, but it all depends on the context. That is why context is key. My argument that Jehovah alone created the world only works because we can actually go back to the Scripture and see that there was no one else who did the creating, and we can also see the context in which He claimed to be the only creator. Therefore, when He says that He alone did the creating, we can take it at face value.
It doesn't work to take a phrase "I alone" and then claim that all the veress in which God says this mean the same thing, completely ignoring the context and other factors.
So, no, the Isrelites are not YHWH. We know this from the context in which it was spoken, and from our understanding of other verses.
It doesn't work to take a phrase "I alone" and then claim that all the veress in which God says this mean the same thing, completely ignoring the context and other factors.
So, no, the Isrelites are not YHWH. We know this from the context in which it was spoken, and from our understanding of other verses.
What you need to do Arwen4CJ is get over it. Just because the creation account in Genesis goes into more detail about creation, and doesn't seem to include any other person in it isn't prove that my example principle (of Moses leading Israel lets say) is incorrect in realtion the Jesus and the Father alone creating. Your claiming ignorance purely because of a lack of description.
For example if Isaiah 63:3 started going into detail about YHWH alone leading Israel through the wilderness, with verses reading "YHWH himself led Isreal, taking them to Marah Elim, then to Dophkah, to Mt. Sinai, carrying them through the Valley Hazeroth, then YHWH took them to Bene-Jaakan etc " would that be proof that Moses must be YHWH since "we can actually go back to the Scripture and see that there was no one else who [led them]" of course not, because we still have a verse which shows that God through Moses led Israel, just because YHWH used Moses is not proof of anything except what we already know, God uses agents to accomplish his will.
There is no difference in the Genesis account, simply because it goes into detail and doesn't name anyone else isn't proof that no one else did any creating, invertedly implying that Jesus is YHWH. Furthermore scripture does state someone was with God at the creation, your simply looking at it from a trinitrian mind set. the verse reads "God said let us make man in our image" Obviously, God here is speaking to someone. Normally, if a persons says to his son, “Let us build our house according to our original plan,” we do not think that the person who is speaking is speaking to another person of himself. Likewise, in those instances where God says “let us”, “we”, etc., God is not speaking to another person of Himself, but he is speaking to someone else who is not Himself. Indeed, the default reasoning should be that YHWH is speaking to someone else who is not Himself.
Jesus before his pre-human existence fits this role, therefore we can see that someone else was involved in creation. Jesus himself spoke of him apart from the Genesis creation account, claiming that not he himself made man, but God, since it was God the Father who was the ultimate source. Jesus said "However, from [the] beginning of creation ‘He [God] made them male and female." (Mark 10:6)
You cannot disprove that Jesus is YHWH by comparing passages in which YHWH declares that He alone did something, and then claim that it always has one meaning. Jesus being YHWH rests on numerous Scriptures, and the fact that there is only one God.
If you deny that Jesus is YHWH, just as the Father is YHWH you are left with only the conclusion below:
Jesus must either be a second God, or He must be a demi-god. This conclusion does not fit with YHWH's delcaration that He is the one and only God.
Jesus must either be a second God, or He must be a demi-god. This conclusion does not fit with YHWH's delcaration that He is the one and only God.
But who is to say that both the Father and Son are not YHWH? It seems to me that God is the only one who participated in the creation of the world in any way whatsover. God spoke, and everything came into being. Jesus is that Word through which all things were created. God made humans in His own image....which means that we were created in only the image of God, not the image of God and another.
There are no verses in Genesis that say that God used someone who wasn't Him to do the actual creating.
There are no verses in Genesis that say that God used someone who wasn't Him to do the actual creating.
My belief that Jesus is YHWH does not only rest on Hebrews chapter 1. Jesus can only be the image of God, in the true sense, if He also is YHWH. Otherwise, Jesus would just be another human.
No, we should not conclude that. But the above scenario does not work with the Father and Jesus.....because YHWH is the one and only God. Jesus couldn't simply copy the Father's deity and become a second God. Since the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God, they act together in all that they do. The Son does imitate the Father, but that does not negate the Son's deity and identity as YHWH.
No, we should not conclude that. But the above scenario does not work with the Father and Jesus.....because YHWH is the one and only God. Jesus couldn't simply copy the Father's deity and become a second God. Since the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God, they act together in all that they do. The Son does imitate the Father, but that does not negate the Son's deity and identity as YHWH.
(2 Corinthians 3:18) "...And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of God, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory..."
And no it wouldn't make Jesus simply Human, how does Jesus being appointed above all things -apart from the Father- given life within himself, and sitting at the Fathers right hand, but not be God even though he's still his image, make Jesus simply Human. Your mad to claim such a thing. How can Jesus posses all those things but because he's not God imply he's no better than a lowly human.
2.)the text says to the Father's glory...but it couldn't be to the Father's glory unless Jesus was also YHWH.
Why? Because YHWH says that every knee would bow to Him, and every tongue would swear allegience to Him.....
But yet in Philippians they are bowing to Jesus, and swearing by Jesus......so the Father could not be glorified in this unless both Jesus and the Father were YHWH.
Why? Because YHWH says that every knee would bow to Him, and every tongue would swear allegience to Him.....
But yet in Philippians they are bowing to Jesus, and swearing by Jesus......so the Father could not be glorified in this unless both Jesus and the Father were YHWH.
We would be praying to the Father.But we also sometimes pray to Jesus...and we do worship Jesus along with the Father. Jesus receives worship in the Bible.