God doesn't seem to really care.

[doseofreality]

I dont see the problem here.

@T_Laurich , you are quoting evidence supporting a claim. That is different than definitive proof.

you do not have absolute proof otherwise you wouldn't need faith and no one could question it.


Edit-- very few things have definitive proof, we live in a world of probabilities....what is more likely is the better question to ask.

 

[T_Laurich]

I dont see the problem here.

@T_Laurich , you are quoting evidence supporting a claim. That is different than definitive proof.

you do not have absolute proof otherwise you wouldn't need faith and no one could question it.


Edit-- very few things have definitive proof, we live in a world of probabilities....what is more likely is the better question to ask.

So let me ask you a question... If a religion has had writing documented over 400 years old about what would happen after a certain person came to earth. And the prophecy's came true... And a religion could predict nations its future... That does not prove anything???...

You cannot use the sociological sense of proof against historicity since history is proven... I am not talking about a vague idea or concept... But more so documented events... It's hard to 'prove' a person was happy yesterday, but I can prove they went to the carnival.

 

[Arcynaculr]

Okay so God of the Bible claims he is the only one and True God that will ever exist or has existed..... God has had fulfilled prophecies... With the prophecies recorded years before the event... God also claims of events that will happen after the messiah comes such as the destruction of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple... Both happen after Christ... Bible depicts How Christ would die, years before His birth...


Again you have not researched the historicity of the Bible? And if you can disprove it then tell me before you move to research next religion... So to come out with the claim
Is saying that the historicity and sovereignty of my God is not true... So show me how...

Events do not prove the nature of god. Maybe he is not who he says he is.?Maybe a god did do those things. but maybe that does does not exist anymore? Maybe another god destroyed him? Maybe there is multiple gods and they take turns. maybe god changed. maybe he left. maybe he is not as powerful as he says? Maybe it was not a god but some alien life with super advanced technology?

Who knows what it was. For all we know we were created by super advanced beings and we have no god... but maybe the beings that created us have a god... but that would do us no good as we are only creations of a creation...

So many possibilities but you have put your trust in just one possibility (or truth as you see it) ... I, on the other hand, am still searching for proof of exactly what the bible says... piece by piece, and I decided a good place to start would be the question of, can we prove if god loves/cares about us or not... if proven he does then that would be a plus for the bible but not a solid proof, then I would move on to step 2. But if proven god cannot possibly love/care bout us, well then that would disprove any religion that claims he does. Then i could move on to ones that dont make claims of a loving/caring god. and, if there is no loving/caring god, then i shall feel no reason to seek any god. as of right now, it seems more likely that there is no loving/caring god. but its not yet a 100% thing.

 

[doseofreality]

So let me ask you a question... If a religion has had writing documented over 400 years old about what would happen after a certain person came to earth. And the prophecy's came true... And a religion could predict nations its future... That does not prove anything???...

You cannot use the sociological sense of proof against historicity since history is proven... I am not talking about a vague idea or concept... But more so documented events... It's hard to 'prove' a person was happy yesterday, but I can prove they went to the carnival.

We need to clarify then what exactly we are attempting to prove.
The claim brought up was that God has not been proven nor disproven.

the historical evidence you have presented may indeed prove that certain events were foretold or even that someone had the gift of prophecy. This has no bearing on the cause of these events and cannot be used as proof for a transcendent deity.

 

[T_Laurich]

Events do not prove the nature of god. Maybe he is not who he says he is.?Maybe a god did do those things. but maybe that does does not exist anymore? Maybe another god destroyed him? Maybe there is multiple gods and they take turns. maybe god changed. maybe he left. maybe he is not as powerful as he says? Maybe it was not a god but some alien life with super advanced technology?

So you are saying in a lot of words that 'There could be a lot of gods that take turns being god, and maybe one destroyed yours.' When God (when he was ruling the earth according to you) says He is the one and only God for ever. "Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
Maybe God changed or maybe He left, well Malachi 3:6a says I the LORD do not change.

Who knows what it was. For all we know we were created by super advanced beings and we have no god... but maybe the beings that created us have a god... but that would do us no good as we are only creations of a creation...

So you are using this paradox of (all) earthly religions to in not so many words say "Maybe our god's are not really the true God but since I can't deny the plausibility of a God, and I don't want to argue the correctness of everyones God so I deem that they are all incorrect and some other planet that we have yet to meet. And most likely never will meet. That could or couldn't exist; has the true God. But in the end this argument is futile since we were created by a creation."..... Nice....

So many possibilities but you have put your trust in just one possibility (or truth as you see it) ... I, on the other hand, am still searching for proof of exactly what the bible says... piece by piece, and I decided a good place to start would be the question of, can we prove if god loves/cares about us or not... if proven he does then that would be a plus for the bible but not a solid proof, then I would move on to step 2. But if proven god cannot possibly love/care bout us, well then that would disprove any religion that claims he does. Then i could move on to ones that dont make claims of a loving/caring god. and, if there is no loving/caring god, then i shall feel no reason to seek any god. as of right now, it seems more likely that there is no loving/caring god. but its not yet a 100% thing.

 

[T_Laurich]

We need to clarify then what exactly we are attempting to prove.
The claim brought up was that God has not been proven nor disproven.

the historical evidence you have presented may indeed prove that certain events were foretold or even that someone had the gift of prophecy. This has no bearing on the cause of these events and cannot be used as proof for a transcendent deity.

Okay so point to anyone else who has had this 'Gift of prophecy'... We could start there... Because to deny the supernatural events of prophecy is to take out a HUGE part of the bible...

 

[doseofreality]

Well the bible says he does love/care about us. So if he does not love/care about us then that part of the bible is false and if that part is false then more parts can be false too... which would cause this whole religion to break down.

I'm trying to determine if god's love is true so I can determine if the rest of the bible is true.

This seems like a subjective endeavor though. Don't you infer human emotion and sense of love onto determining whether God loves us. Maybe God loves us but not in a "human" type of love thus why there is pain, hunger, suffering, death.

 

[doseofreality]

Okay so point to anyone else who has had this 'Gift of prophecy'... We could start there... Because to deny the supernatural events of prophecy is to take out a HUGE part of the bible...

You are inferring a cause when the cause may be unknown. Lets say no one else has the gift of prophecy, only Isaiah.
How was he able to predict future events?
Do you know the cause?

 

[Arcynaculr]

So you are saying in a lot of words that 'There could be a lot of gods that take turns being god, and maybe one destroyed yours.' When God (when he was ruling the earth according to you) says He is the one and only God for ever. "Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
Maybe God changed or maybe He left, well Malachi 3:6a says I the LORD do not change.


So you are using this paradox of (all) earthly religions to in not so many words say "Maybe our god's are not really the true God but since I can't deny the plausibility of a God, and I don't want to argue the correctness of everyones God so I deem that they are all incorrect and some other planet that we have yet to meet. And most likely never will meet. That could or couldn't exist; has the true God. But in the end this argument is futile since we were created by a creation."..... Nice....

You are assuming that because the bible or even a god says it, it must be true...

And yes, i suppose all of humans' discussing about god could very well be in vain... but we seem compelled to do it anyway lol just in case it warrants something...

 

[T_Laurich]

You are assuming that because the bible or even a god says it, it must be true...

And yes, i suppose all of humans' discussing about god could very well be in vain... but we seem compelled to do it anyway lol just in case it warrants something...

Were we not arguing the reality of the Judea Christian God? Are you not on a Christian web site?

Were you not saying that my God could be incredibly incorrect... hence why I used the Bible (the book you are attacking) to show your refutes are off kilter... And I am basing my Bible on the prophecies, which niether you nor the other person have denied... But as Dosofreality has said "the historical evidence you have presented may indeed prove that certain events were foretold or even that someone had the gift of prophecy. This has no bearing on the cause of these events and cannot be used as proof for a transcendent deity."

Which is hilarious because you try to get around refuting the prophecy or explaining it by saying it is a nonsequitar to point supernatural to God...

 

[Arcynaculr]

This seems like a subjective endeavor though. Don't you infer human emotion and sense of love onto determining whether God loves us. Maybe God loves us but not in a "human" type of love thus why there is pain, hunger, suffering, death.

Yes i see what you mean... well, all i can say, is if we cannot relate to this gods' idea of "love" then how much in his image are we actually made? For that would seem to say: "not very much".

Plus if this gods' love is that estranged then we can't be sure of an afterlife or anything so this god might as well not exist.

 

[T_Laurich]

You are inferring a cause when the cause may be unknown. Lets say no one else has the gift of prophecy, only Isaiah.
How was he able to predict future events?
Do you know the cause?

There are far more prophets then Isiah, such as Daniel for instance... But when you get a religion producing correct prophecies where the prophets are saying they are from God, and they are sayingtheir purpose is to show God's glory and to 'warn' the future generations...

Seems like you need to explain the prophecies... So explain the prophecies depicted in the bible/Torah?

Idk but maybe the person telling the future correct knows why he is telling the future... If you were solving a math problem such as 2+2 correct you would be able to explain why...

 

[Arcynaculr]

Were we not arguing the reality of the Judea Christian God? Are you not on a Christian web site?

Were you not saying that my God could be incredibly incorrect... hence why I used the Bible (the book you are attacking) to show your refutes are off kilter... And I am basing my Bible on the prophecies, which niether you nor the other person have denied... But as Dosofreality has said "the historical evidence you have presented may indeed prove that certain events were foretold or even that someone had the gift of prophecy. This has no bearing on the cause of these events and cannot be used as proof for a transcendent deity."

Which is hilarious because you try to get around refuting the prophecy or explaining it by saying it is a nonsequitar to point supernatural to God...

The prophecy may have come from a god, or it may not have. To say it did come from a god, specifically the exact one the bible describes, is an assumption.

There may be proof of a prophecy, not of where the prophecy came from.

Also, there is no proof the god of the bible (or any god) is always honest either.

 

[Spokenpassage]

If god really cared about each and every one of us so much, then why did he create us in the first place when he knew that so many would not choose him and end up going to hell? I mean it's just evil to create something that you know will destroy itself... better to not create something at all than create something that will just destroy itself.

Of course if he created something, he would have to let it have free will but if the result of free will is self-destruction then he should not have created anything at all. Then there would be no people suffering in hell. There would never have been anything. All this could have been avoided, if god would have cared enough to restrain himself from creating.

Actually that's why Jesus came, to help us get right with God, and help everyone go to heaven. I don't know why that's such a complicated notion? He died so that everyone can get right with God, so it's your choice to actually believe it and accept it. That's definitely the opposite of cruel and evil. God is like saying "Hey everyone my Son has died for you to go to heaven and be right with Me", but the world ignores Him and scoffs at Him. That's pretty much the only reason why people go to hell, because they turn down this awesome offer of salvation. So they die in their sins. Why blame God for what humanity chooses? Jesus made a way, if people don't want it, how then can you blame God? It's fair enough that He even did that!

 

[T_Laurich]

The prophecy may have come from a god, or it may not have. To say it did come from a god, specifically the exact one the bible describes, is an assumption.

There may be proof of a prophecy, not of where the prophecy came from.

Also, there is no proof the god of the bible (or any god) is always honest either.

So let me get this strait...

The only religion we know of to accurately explain how science says 'we came from dust in the ground'... Could be wrong...
The same region who says that snakes used to have legs (Which science proves) LINK.... Could be wrong...
The same religion who promises a Messiah to die in a certain way, and dies in that way... Could be wrong....
The same religion who explains how its nations capital will be ransacked and its temple destroyed... Could be wrong...
ECT....

But no your stance is all religions are not provable even though we get some like Mormonism with 100% incorrect prophecies such as D&C 115 Where as you cannot google anything that quickly disproves Christianity...

 

[Arcynaculr]

So let me get this strait...

The only religion we know of to accurately explain how science says 'we came from dust in the ground'... Could be wrong...
The same region who says that snakes used to have legs (Which science proves) LINK.... Could be wrong...
The same religion who promises a Messiah to die in a certain way, and dies in that way... Could be wrong....
The same religion who explains how its nations capital will be ransacked and its temple destroyed... Could be wrong...
ECT....

But no your stance is all religions are not provable even though we get some like Mormonism with 100% incorrect prophecies such as D&C 115 Where as you cannot google anything that quickly disproves Christianity...

So you assume that because some things about your religion are accurate then it must all be accurate?

 

[doseofreality]

Yes i see what you mean... well, all i can say, is if we cannot relate to this gods' idea of "love" then how much in his image are we actually made? For that would seem to say: "not very much".

Plus if this gods' love is that estranged then we can't be sure of an afterlife or anything so this god might as well not exist.

That is a plausible conclusion one could make

 

[T_Laurich]

So you assume that because some things about your religion are accurate then it must all be accurate?

So tell me what isn't accurate... I am explaining the tip of the iceberg...

 

[doseofreality]

Actually that's why Jesus came, to help us get right with God, and help everyone go to heaven. I don't know why that's such a complicated notion? He died so that everyone can get right with God, so it's your choice to actually believe it and accept it. That's definitely the opposite of cruel and evil. God is like saying "Hey everyone my Son has died for you to go to heaven and be right with Me", but the world ignores Him and scoffs at Him. That's pretty much the only reason why people go to hell, because they turn down this awesome offer of salvation. So they die in their sins. Why blame God for what humanity chooses? Jesus made a way, if people don't want it, how then can you blame God? It's fair enough that He even did that!

You believe God is sovereign right?
That everything is controlled by God and nothing can thwart His divine plan.

This implies that it was Gods purpose for Eve to be tempted, for sin to enter the world, for us to be born guilty, and for many to reject salvation or never have the chance to choose.

Follow the logic, its not as simple as you make it out to be.

 

[T_Laurich]

You believe God is sovereign right?
That everything is controlled by God and nothing can thwart His divine plan.

This implies that it was Gods purpose for Eve to be tempted, for sin to enter the world, for us to be born guilty, and for many to reject salvation or never have the chance to choose.

Follow the logic, its not as simple as you make it out to be.

Someone has never read their bible... Why did God create humanity