DEBATE - CATHOLIC vs PROTESTANT

[Vernon]

Seems to me this thread shows many attempting to justify themselves and their faith over that of another. By our contention, separation and division we are ALL in error before God. Christendom is in a fallen state because we have divided Christ and all of us claim him for ourselves while denying others. Our witness to the world is a false witness and because of the iniquity of ALL of Christendom the world has a valid excuse to reject God.
Jesus prayed that those who would believe in him would be in complete unity so the world would believe that God sent his Son.
Let us pray God is merciful toward us as we make the body of his Son a mockery before the world.

 

[notuptome]

Seems to me this thread shows many attempting to justify themselves and their faith over that of another. By our contention, separation and division we are ALL in error before God. Christendom is in a fallen state because we have divided Christ and all of us claim him for ourselves while denying others. Our witness to the world is a false witness and because of the iniquity of ALL of Christendom the world has a valid excuse to reject God.
Jesus prayed that those who would believe in him would be in complete unity so the world would believe that God sent his Son.
Let us pray God is merciful toward us as we make the body of his Son a mockery before the world.

I wholeheartedly disagree with what you have said. We are never told to sacrifice doctrine for unity. Unity is achieved through the Holy Spirit not by the will of man. Those who espouse another gospel that is not the gospel can never find unity with those who know the Lord aright according to the scriptures.

We are to allow God to minister His word in the hearts of those who hear it. You will not be persuaded by my words but you cannot refute the word of God.

Saving grace is not found in the communion elements. Saving grace is not found in water baptism. Saving grace is not found in vain and repetitious prayers. Saving grace is found in hearing the word of God and being convicted of sin, righteousness and judgment. Simple, the gospel is to all men but men want to change it into something more appealing to their desires.

There is no compassion in allowing a soul to go to hell because of false belief.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SilkandDungarees6]

Saving grace is not found in the communion elements. Saving grace is not found in water baptism. Saving grace is not found in vain and repetitious prayers. Saving grace is found in hearing the word of God and being convicted of sin, righteousness and judgment. Simple, the gospel is to all men but men want to change it into something more appealing to their desires.

Then how is saving grace applied to an individual. Is it by belief alone?

 

[ThomistColin]

Then how is saving grace applied to an individual. Is it by belief alone?

The problem with sola fide or faith alone is that it isn't biblical. Scripture says Faith without works is dead. Now we are not saved by those works. It means that we are working within the salvation given through the grace of our Lord. If we simply begin to disobey the Lord and His works through us cease, it is a sign that our faith has dwindled and died.

 

[notuptome]

The problem with sola fide or faith alone is that it isn't biblical. Scripture says Faith without works is dead. Now we are not saved by those works. It means that we are working within the salvation given through the grace of our Lord. If we simply begin to disobey the Lord and His works through us cease, it is a sign that our faith has dwindled and died.

James said that faith without works is dead because the faith that saves is a faith that serves. In the end we are saved by grace through faith not through works. Salvation is an unmerited gift of God. If we work to obtain or work to maintain then it is not a gift but compensation.

If we sin after we are saved we cannot come again unto condemnation but we will receive chastisement for our sin. Sin always has consequences in the flesh.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Then how is saving grace applied to an individual. Is it by belief alone?

Ephesians 2:8-10 and Romans 10-9-17 Paul gives a comprehensive dissertation on the subject.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Simona25]

If we sin after we are saved we cannot come again unto condemnation but we will receive chastisement for our sin. Sin always has consequences in the flesh.

If we sin?
Sin has consequences in the mind also, especially in the mind (and by mind I mean soul). Sin comes from the mind and it perverts it. The first one that sinned didn`t even had flesh.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

Innocent on Both Charges
Despite appearances, there are at least two central reasons these claims fail when held up to deeper scrutiny:
1. St. Paul was obviously not condemning consecrated celibacy in I Timothy 4, because in the very next chapter of this same letter, he instructed Timothy pastorally concerning the proper implementation of consecrated celibacy with regard to “enrolled” widows:
Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband . . . well attested for her good deeds. . . . But refuse to enroll younger widows; for when they grow wanton against Christ they desire to marry, and so they incur condemnation for having violated their first pledge (I Tim. 5:9-11).
There is nothing ordinarily wrong with a widow remarrying. St. Paul himself made clear in Romans 7:2-3:
[A] married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. . . . But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and if she remarries another man she is not an adulterous.
Yet, the “widow” of I Timothy 5 is condemned if she remarries? In the words of Ricky Ricardo, St. Paul has some “splainin’ to do.”
The answer lies in the fact that the widow in question had been “enrolled,” which was a first-century equivalent to being “consecrated.” Thus, according to St. Paul, these “enrolled” widows were not only celibate but consecrated as such.
2. St. Paul was obviously not condemning the Church making abstinence from certain foods mandatory, because the Council of Jerusalem, of which St. Paul was a key participant in A.D. 49, did just that in declaring concerning Gentile converts:
For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that youabstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from bloodand from what is strangled and from unchastity (Acts 15:28).
This sounds just like "enjoin[ing] abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving." So there is obviously something more to I Timothy 4 than what one gets at first glance.
What Was St. Paul Actually Calling “Doctrines of Demons?”
In A Catholic Commentary on Sacred Scripture, the 1953 classic for Scripture study, Fr. R.J. Foster gives us crucial insight into what St. Paul was writing about in I Timothy 4:
ehind these prohibitions there may lie the dualistic principles which were already apparent in Asia Minor when this epistle was written and which were part of the Gnostic heresy.
Evidently, St. Paul was writing against what might be termed the founding fathers of the Gnostic movement that split away from the Church in the first century and would last over 1,000 years, forming many different sects and taking many different forms.
Generally speaking, Gnostics taught that spirit was good and matter was pure evil. We know some of them even taught there were two gods, or two “eternal principles,” that are the sources of all that is. There was a good principle, or god, who created all spirit, while an evil principle created the material world.
Moreover, we humans had a pre-human existence, according to the Gnostics, and were in perfect bliss as pure spirits dwelling in light and in the fullness of the “gnosis” or “knowledge.” Perfect bliss, that is, until our parents did something evil: They got married. Through the conjugal act perfectly pure spirits are snatched out of that perfect bliss and trapped in evil bodies, causing the darkening of the intellect and the loss of the fullness of the "gnosis." Thus, salvation would only come through the gaining, or regaining, of the “gnosis” that the Gnostics alone possessed.
Eating meat was also forbidden because its consumption would bring more evil matter into the body, having the effect of both keeping a person bound to his evil body and further darkening the intellect.
Thus, these early Gnostics forbade “marriage and enjoin[ed] abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving.”
If there are any remaining doubts as to whom St. Paul was referring as teaching "doctrines of demons," he tips his hand in his final exhortation in I Timothy 6:20-21:
O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the godless chatter and contradictions of what is falsely calledknowledge, for by professing it some have missed the mark as regards faith. Grace be with you.
The Greek word translated above as “knowledge” is gnoseos. Sound familiar? The bottom line is this: St. Paul was not condemning the Catholic Church in I Timothy 4; he was warning against early Gnostics who were leading Christians astray via their “gnosis,” which was notrue gnosis at all.

Just for the sake of posterity.....I think this is a hilarious reply.

 

[Nautilus]

Nailed it.

Now martyrdom for one who gave all without honor or virtue.

There is no virtue in religion that teaches false doctrine. There can be no honor in death for a false cause.Repent and be ye saved all ye ends of the earth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

what? not sure how your post relates to mine.

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

Seems to me this thread shows many attempting to justify themselves and their faith over that of another. By our contention, separation and division we are ALL in error before God. Christendom is in a fallen state because we have divided Christ and all of us claim him for ourselves while denying others. Our witness to the world is a false witness and because of the iniquity of ALL of Christendom the world has a valid excuse to reject God.
Jesus prayed that those who would believe in him would be in complete unity so the world would believe that God sent his Son.
Let us pray God is merciful toward us as we make the body of his Son a mockery before the world.

Hey Vern! I like it!

Lots of Catholic haters in the world, but I have met some pretty special Catholic people!
I'm not a Catholic,
and believe at the time of the reformation some things needed to be set straight, and were!
Good post in my humble opinion.

 

[notuptome]

what? not sure how your post relates to mine.

Those who were banned have gone out in their minds having fought a valiant fight and were banned without cause. No matter that they violated the rules and conducted themselves in the very manner they were condemning.

There is no merit in fighting a fight when you are in the wrong. There is honor in fighting for the things that are good and valor in fighting for the good cause even against overwhelming odds.

A thief drowns in the ocean with his pockets filled with stolen gold coins. Had he simply emptied his pockets he could have lived. A fool perishes for foolish things.

We must all be willing to let go of the things that pull us down.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[TaylorTG]

@Notuptome

1. Saving grace is not found in vain and repetitious prayers.
2. Saving grace is found in hearing the word of God and being convicted of sin, righteousness and judgment.
3. Simple, the gospel is to all men but men want to change it into something more appealing to their desires.
4. There is no compassion in allowing a soul to go to hell because of false belief.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

1
"Repetitious" prayers are recorded in the bible. Remember Moses? He helped the jews defeat their enemies by praying non-stop. Whenever he tired and dropped his hands, the battle turned in the enemy's favor.

Moses didn't also pray in battle but simply for God to have mercy on the jews. He prayed for up to 40 days and nights, as the books of Exodus and Deuteronomy recorded.

We can assume that Moses had to repeat a lot of his prayers when in intercession for the jews. AKA, repetitious prayers.



That bible verse you quoted against us Catholics when we try to defend the virgin Mary. It says something about heathens thinking they will be heard for their many words, yes?

Well, that verse doesn't necessarily warn us against praying a lot of the same prayer, it warns us to not throw up empty words to God, which means that whenever we pray, we must make sure that our hearts and minds are truly which God when in prayer.

We may pray a 'our father' three times in a morning and profit from it should our hearts are with the Lord.


You say repetitious prayers are bad. Don't forget, bro: Moses, a right-hand man of God, a prophet, a true believer, practiced them.

 

[Praus]

Prov 24:17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:

 

[Vernon]

I wholeheartedly disagree with what you have said. We are never told to sacrifice doctrine for unity. Unity is achieved through the Holy Spirit not by the will of man. Those who espouse another gospel that is not the gospel can never find unity with those who know the Lord aright according to the scriptures.

We are to allow God to minister His word in the hearts of those who hear it. You will not be persuaded by my words but you cannot refute the word of God.

Saving grace is not found in the communion elements. Saving grace is not found in water baptism. Saving grace is not found in vain and repetitious prayers. Saving grace is found in hearing the word of God and being convicted of sin, righteousness and judgment. Simple, the gospel is to all men but men want to change it into something more appealing to their desires.

There is no compassion in allowing a soul to go to hell because of false belief.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I rest my case

 

[SilkandDungarees6]

I have a question for any forum member reading this thread. How does one become justified, and is it possible for one to lose one's justification by disobeying God?

 

[dcontroversal]

OK, so your opinion is that doctrine doesn't matter.




Anyone who claims to be a Christian and yet "protests" against Catholic teachings is by definition a "Protestant". If you don't believe me, then look it up in any dictionary and you'll see that I'm telling you the truth. So by you claiming that you are neither Catholic nor Protestant, then you are essentially claiming that you are not a Christian.[/QUOTE]

Do you know how absurd is it to say what you just said. Who I am in Christ is not defined by a modern word found in some dictionary. WOW...how about this instead...

I agree with neither Protestants and or Catholics....

What Religious affiliations would you consider to be Protestants?

 

[dcontroversal]

I have a question for any forum member reading this thread. How does one become justified, and is it possible for one to lose one's justification by disobeying God?

The bible teaches saved, justified and sanctified for ever in Christ. Our justification is found in the completed work of Christ on the cross. It is an eternal GIFT to those who exercise true faith into the faith OF Jesus.

 

[SilkandDungarees6]

The bible teaches saved, justified and sanctified for ever in Christ. Our justification is found in the completed work of Christ on the cross. It is an eternal GIFT to those who exercise true faith into the faith OF Jesus.

Then is it possible that a justified believer can commit a sin?

 

[SilkandDungarees6]

I have a question for all the non-Catholic "Christians" in this Forum.

Do those who are justified still commit sin?

 

[notuptome]

@Notuptome


1
"Repetitious" prayers are recorded in the bible. Remember Moses? He helped the jews defeat their enemies by praying non-stop. Whenever he tired and dropped his hands, the battle turned in the enemy's favor.

Moses didn't also pray in battle but simply for God to have mercy on the jews. He prayed for up to 40 days and nights, as the books of Exodus and Deuteronomy recorded.

We can assume that Moses had to repeat a lot of his prayers when in intercession for the jews. AKA, repetitious prayers.



That bible verse you quoted against us Catholics when we try to defend the virgin Mary. It says something about heathens thinking they will be heard for their many words, yes?

Well, that verse doesn't necessarily warn us against praying a lot of the same prayer, it warns us to not throw up empty words to God, which means that whenever we pray, we must make sure that our hearts and minds are truly which God when in prayer.

We may pray a 'our father' three times in a morning and profit from it should our hearts are with the Lord.


You say repetitious prayers are bad. Don't forget, bro: Moses, a right-hand man of God, a prophet, a true believer, practiced them.

How can you claim that Moses prayed repetitious prayers? Do you have a recording of them? Moses prayers were frank conversation with God not repetitious prayers. Frankly I find your postulation to be without support.

When it comes to prayer God wants to hear what is on our hearts not how many lines we can recite from a prayer book. Perhaps it comes from a different perspective of what a believers relationship with God ought to be.

For the cause of Christ
Roger