There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

Arwen4CJ · Feb 1, 2014

NWL said:

That isn't even what 2 Corinthians 10 is even talking about. It is not saying that we should not take Scripture at face value. Again, context is key.

However, there are some interesting verses here...

2 Corinthians 10:1-18 (NASB)
10 Now I, Paul, myself urge you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ—I who am [SUP][a][/SUP]meek when face to face with you, but bold toward you when absent! [SUP]2 [/SUP]I ask that when I am present I need not be bold with the confidence with which I propose to be courageous against some, who regard us as if we walked according to the flesh. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, [SUP]4 [/SUP]for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but [SUP][b][/SUP]divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.[SUP]5 [/SUP]We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.

[SUP]7 [/SUP][SUP][c][/SUP]You are looking at [SUP][d][/SUP]things as they are outwardly. If anyone is confident in himself that he is Christ’s, let him consider this again within himself, that just as he is Christ’s, so also are we. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For even if I boast somewhat [SUP][e][/SUP]further about our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for destroying you, I will not be put to shame, [SUP]9 [/SUP][SUP][f][/SUP]for I do not wish to seem as if I would terrify you by my letters. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his [SUP][g][/SUP]personal presence is unimpressive and his speech contemptible.” [SUP]11 [/SUP]Let such a person consider this, that what we are in word by letters when absent, such persons we are also in deed when present.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For we are not bold to class or compare ourselves with [SUP][h][/SUP]some of those who commend themselves; but when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are without understanding. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But we will not boast beyond our measure, but [SUP][i][/SUP]within the measure of the sphere which God apportioned to us as a measure, to reach even as far as you. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For we are not overextending ourselves, as if we did not reach to you, for we were the first to come even as far as you in the gospel of Christ; [SUP]15 [/SUP]not boasting beyond our measure, that is, in other men’s labors, but with the hope that as your faith grows, we will be, [SUP][j][/SUP]within our sphere, enlarged even more by you, [SUP]16 [/SUP]so as to preach the gospel even to the regions beyond you, and not to boast [SUP][k][/SUP]in what has been accomplished in the sphere of another. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But he who boasts is to boast in the Lord. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For it is not he who commends himself that is approved, but he whom the Lord commends.

I did not say that Jesus was not the originator of creation. If the Father created through Jesus, as you like to point out, then Jesus still did creating, but it is through one God. God spoke and everything came into being. That Word through which everything came into being was Jesus. Jesus and the Father are one God, and as such, the Persons work together to accomplish everything that God does.

The Bible doesn't say that Jesus picked up the pieces that the Father made. That is your own assumption that you are reading into the text.

What I was agreeing to is that the Father created through Jesus --- both the Father and the Son are the Creator because they both are YHWH.

They were acting as judges, just as in the original Psalm that Jesus was quoting from. People can act as false gods when making judgments, though, if they are judging falsely. This doesn't make them be false gods unless they make the claim that they are God, and they are not. Someone who makes the claim to be God and is God is speaking truth.

While it is true that whenever translators are translating from one language to another, they have to decide what the balance should be between literal translations and meaning translations. Some translations are more literal than others. Some are more paraphrases. For those translations that are literal, the translators try to go as Word for Word as they can, but it also has to make sense in the language that they are translating into.

The more paraphrase there is in the translation, the less literal (accurate) it actually is. It also increases the possibility that the translators are putting their own bias into the translation. If the translators are going to use a lot of paraphrase, and their rendering of a particular passage is something that is so different that no other translation agrees, the translators had better have a good justification for rendering it their way. "This is what we believe," is not good justification for Bible "translation."

I didn't say no other Bible translation other than the NWT added words in.

It, however, is a fact that the translators behind the NWT rendered certain passages in a certain way in order to make the Bible appear to agree with Jehovah's Witness doctrine. This is why no biblical scholar respects the NWT as a legitimate translation, including the theologically liberal ones, many of whom would agree with some JW doctrine.

I already listed John 1:1 a few posts back.

Colossians 1:5-20 (NWT)
[SUP]5[/SUP] He is the image of the invisible God,+ the firstborn of all creation;+ [SUP]16[/SUP] because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,+ whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him+ and for him. [SUP]17[/SUP] Also, he is before all other things,+ and by means of him all other things were made to exist, [SUP]18[/SUP] and he is the head of the body, the congregation.+ He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead,+ so that he might become the one who is first in all things; [SUP]19[/SUP] because God was pleased to have all fullness to dwell in him,+ [SUP]20[/SUP] and through him to reconcile to himself all other things+ by making peace through the blood+ he shed on the torture stake,* whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.

Please look at the word I put in bold there. "Other." That word is not in the Greek. It was inserted in the NWT so that the text would not read that Jesus was above all things, thus obscuring Jesus' deity and supremacy in this verse. They are not being intellectually honest here. They are passing this off as if it is part of the actual text of Scripture.

No wonder you have a totally different understanding of this passage. The NWT renders it so that it makes it sound like Jesus is a created being. No other translation does this.

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by Him were all things created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He might have the preeminence.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fullness dwell,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]and having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself — by Him, I say, whether they be things on earth or things in heaven.

American Standard Version (ASV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it was the good pleasure of the Father that in him should all the fulness dwell;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile all things unto himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him, I say, whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens.

Amplified Bible (AMP)

[SUP]15 [/SUP][Now] He is the [SUP][a][/SUP]exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For it was in Him that all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [by His service, intervention] and in and for Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And He Himself existed before all things, and in Him all things consist (cohere, are held together).
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He also is the Head of [His] body, the church; seeing He is the Beginning, the Firstborn from among the dead, so that He alone in everything and in every respect might occupy the chief place [stand first and be preeminent].
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it has pleased [the Father] that all the divine fullness (the sum total of the divine perfection, powers, and attributes) should dwell in Him [SUP][b][/SUP]permanently.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And God purposed that through ([SUP][c][/SUP]by the service, the intervention of) Him [the Son] all things should be completely reconciled [SUP][d][/SUP]back to Himself, whether on earth or in heaven, as through Him, [the Father] made peace by means of the blood of His cross.

Common English Bible (CEB)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]The Son is the image of the invisible God,
the one who is first over all creation,[SUP][a][/SUP]

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Because all things were created by him:
both in the heavens and on the earth,
the things that are visible and the things that are invisible.
Whether they are thrones or powers,
or rulers or authorities,
all things were created through him and for him.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]He existed before all things,
and all things are held together in him.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the head of the body, the church,
who is the beginning,
the one who is firstborn from among the dead[SUP][b][/SUP]
so that he might occupy the first place in everything.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Because all the fullness of God was pleased to live in him,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] and he reconciled all things to himself through him—
whether things on earth or in the heavens.
He brought peace through the blood of his cross.

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the visible image of the invisible God. He is supreme over all creation, [SUP]16 [/SUP]because in connection with him were created all things — in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, lordships, rulers or authorities — they have all been created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He existed before all things, and he holds everything together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Also he is head of the Body, the Messianic Community — he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might hold first place in everything. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased God to have his full being live in his Son [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through his Son to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace through him, through having his Son shed his blood by being executed on a stake.

Contemporary English Version (CEV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Christ is exactly like God,
who cannot be seen.
He is the first-born Son,
superior to all creation.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Everything was created by him,
everything in heaven
and on earth,
everything seen and unseen,
including all forces
and powers,
and all rulers
and authorities.
All things were created
by God’s Son,
and everything was made
for him.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]God’s Son was before all else,
and by him everything
is held together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the head of his body,
which is the church.
He is the very beginning,
the first to be raised
from death,
so that he would be
above all others.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]God himself was pleased
to live fully in his Son.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And God was pleased
for him to make peace
by sacrificing his blood
on the cross,
so that all beings in heaven
and on earth
would be brought back to God.

Darby Translation (DARBY)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]who is image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]because by him were created all things, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or principalities, or authorities: all things have been created by him and for him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And *he* is before all, and all things subsist together by him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And *he* is the head of the body, the assembly; who is [the] beginning, firstborn from among the dead, that *he* might have the first place in all things:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]for in him all the fulness [of the Godhead] was pleased to dwell,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]and by him to reconcile all things to itself, having made peace by the blood of his cross—by him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all, and by him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fullness should dwell;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven.

Arwen4CJ · Feb 1, 2014

Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]No one can see God,
but the Son is exactly like God.
He rules over everything that has been made.[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Through his power all things were made:
things in heaven and on earth, seen and not seen—
all spiritual rulers, lords, powers, and authorities.
Everything was made through him and for him.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]The Son was there before anything was made.
And all things continue because of him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the head of the body, which is the church.
He is the beginning of everything else.
And he is the first among all who will be raised from death.[SUP][b][/SUP]
So in everything he is most important.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]God was pleased for all of himself to live in the Son.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And through him, God was happy to bring all things back to himself again—
things on earth and things in heaven.
God made peace by using the blood sacrifice of his Son on the cross.

English Standard Version (ESV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For by[SUP][a][/SUP] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For by[SUP][a][/SUP] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Expanded Bible (EXB)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]The Son [[SUP]L [/SUP]…who] is ·the image of [exactly like; the visible representation of] the invisible God [John 1:18; Heb. 1:3]. He ·ranks higher than [[SUP]L [/SUP]is the firstborn of/over] ·everything that has been made [all creation; Prov. 8:22–30]. [SUP]16 [/SUP]·Through his power [[SUP]L [/SUP]In him; or By him] all things were created [John 1:3; Heb. 1:2]—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all ·powers [or heavenly authorities; [SUP]L [/SUP]thrones], ·authorities [dominions; kingdoms], ·lords [rulers], and ·rulers [authorities; [SUP]C [/SUP]these four may refer to angelic hierarchies, or to earthly and heavenly rulers]. All things were created through Christ and for Christ. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He ·was there before anything was made [[SUP]L [/SUP]is before all things], and all things ·continue [endure; or hold together; unite] ·because of [or in] him. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the head of the body, which is the church. He is the beginning [[SUP]C [/SUP]meaning (1) the source of the church; (2) the creator of all things; or (3) the beginning/initiator of the end-time resurrection]. He is the ·first one who was raised [[SUP]L [/SUP]firstborn] from the dead. So in all things Jesus has ·first place [supremacy]. [SUP]19 [/SUP]God was pleased for all ·of himself [that he is; [SUP]L [/SUP]of his fullness] to live in ·Christ [or the Son; [SUP]L [/SUP]him]. [SUP]20 [/SUP]And through ·Christ [[SUP]L [/SUP]him], God has ·brought all things back to himself again [[SUP]L [/SUP]reconciled all things to himself]—things on earth and things in heaven. ·God made [[SUP]L [/SUP]…by making] peace through the blood of ·Christ’s death on the cross [[SUP]L [/SUP]his cross].

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, [SUP][b][/SUP]the first begotten of every creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created which are in heaven, and which are in earth, things visible and invisible: whether they be [SUP][c][/SUP]Thrones, or Dominions, or Principalities, or Powers, all things were created by him, and for him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and in him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP][SUP][d][/SUP]And he is the head of the body of the Church: he is the beginning, and the [SUP][e][/SUP]first begotten of the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father, that in him should [SUP][f][/SUP]all fullness dwell.
[SUP]20 [/SUP][SUP][g][/SUP]And through peace made by that blood of that his cross, to reconcile to himself through him, through him, I say, [SUP][h][/SUP]all things, both which are in earth, and which are in heaven.

GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of all creation.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He created all things in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible.
Whether they are kings or lords,
rulers or powers—
everything has been created through him and for him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]He existed before everything
and holds everything together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He is also the head of the church, which is his body.
He is the beginning,
the first to come back to life
so that he would have first place in everything.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]God was pleased to have all of himself live in Christ. [SUP]20 [/SUP]God was also pleased to bring everything on earth and in heaven back to himself through Christ. He did this by making peace through Christ’s blood sacrificed on the cross.

Good News Translation (GNT)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God. He is the first-born Son, superior to all created things. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For through him God created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Christ existed before all things, and in union with him all things have their proper place. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the head of his body, the church; he is the source of the body's life. He is the first-born Son, who was raised from death, in order that he alone might have the first place in all things. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For it was by God's own decision that the Son has in himself the full nature of God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Through the Son, then, God decided to bring the whole universe back to himself. God made peace through his Son's blood[SUP][a][/SUP] on the cross and so brought back to himself all things, both on earth and in heaven.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation.[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For everything was created by Him,
in heaven and on earth,
the visible and the invisible,
whether thrones or dominions
or rulers or authorities—
all things have been created through Him and for Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]He is before all things,
and by Him all things hold together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He is also the head of the body, the church;
He is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead,
so that He might come to have
first place in everything.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For God was pleased to have
all His fullness dwell in Him,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]and through Him to reconcile
everything to Himself
by making peace
through the blood of His cross[SUP][b][/SUP]—
whether things on earth or things in heaven.

J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)

[SUP]15-20 [/SUP]Now Christ is the visible expression of the invisible God. He existed before creation began, for it was through him that every thing was made, whether spiritual or material, seen or unseen. Through him, and for him, also, were created power and dominion, ownership and authority. In fact, every single thing was created through, and for him. He is both the first principle and the upholding principle of the whole scheme of creation. And now he is the head of the body which is composed of all Christian people. Life from nothing began through him, and life from the dead began through him, and he is, therefore, justly called the Lord of all. It was in him that the full nature of God chose to live, and through him God planned to reconcile in his own person, as it were, everything on earth and everything in Heaven by virtue of the sacrifice of the cross.

Jubilee Bible 2000 (JUB)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]for by him were all things created, that are in the heavens and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they are thrones or dominions or principalities or powers: all things were created by him and in him;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the congregation[SUP][a][/SUP], who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell
[SUP]20 [/SUP]and by him to reconcile all things unto himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross[SUP][b][/SUP], whether they are the things in the earth or the things in the heavens.

Arwen4CJ · Feb 1, 2014

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: [SUP]16 [/SUP]for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: [SUP]17 [/SUP]and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; [SUP]20 [/SUP]and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Lexham English Bible (LEB)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all[SUP][a][/SUP] creation, [SUP]16 [/SUP]because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together, [SUP]18 [/SUP]and he himself is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in everything, [SUP]19 [/SUP]because he was well pleased for all the fullness to dwell in him, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile all things to himself, by[SUP][b][/SUP] making peace through the blood of his cross, through him, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Living Bible (TLB)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Christ is the exact likeness of the unseen God. He existed before God made anything at all,[SUP][a][/SUP] and, in fact, [SUP]16 [/SUP]Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can’t; the spirit world with its kings and kingdoms, its rulers and authorities; all were made by Christ for his own use and glory. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He was before all else began and it is his power that holds everything together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the Head of the body made up of his people—that is, his Church—which he began; and he is the Leader of all those who arise from the dead,[SUP][b][/SUP] so that he is first in everything; [SUP]19 [/SUP]for God wanted all of himself to be in his Son.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]It was through what his Son did that God cleared a path for everything to come to him—all things in heaven and on earth—for Christ’s death on the cross has made peace with God for all by his blood.

Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)
Colossians 1:15-20 MOUNCE - He is the image of the invisible God, - Bible Gateway

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He hos is eimi the image eikōn of the ho invisible aoratos God theos, · ho the firstborn prōtotokos over all pas creation ktisis; [SUP]16 [/SUP]for hoti in en him autos all pas things ho were created ktizō, in en · ho heaven ouranos and kai on epi · ho earth gē, things ho visible horatos and kai · ho invisible aoratos, whether eite thrones thronos or eite dominions kyriotēs, whether eite principalities archē or eite powers exousia— all pas things ho have been created ktizō through dia him autos and kai for eis him autos. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And kai he autos is eimi before pro all pas things , and kai in en him autos all pas things ho hold synistēmi together . [SUP]18 [/SUP]And kai he autos is eimi the ho head kephalē of the ho body sōma, the ho church ekklēsia. He hos is eimi the beginning archē, the firstborn prōtotokos from ek the ho dead nekros, in hina order that he autos might be ginomai preeminent prōteuō in en everything pas. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For hoti God was pleased eudokeō to have all pas his ho fullness plērōma dwell katoikeō in en him autos, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and kai through dia him autos to reconcile apokatallassō · ho all things pas to eis himself autos, · ho whether eite · ho on epi · ho earth gē or eite · ho in en · ho heaven ouranos, by making peace eirēnopoieō through dia his autos blood haima shed on the ho cross stauros.

Names of God Bible (NOG)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of all creation.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He created all things in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible.
Whether they are kings or lords,
rulers or powers—
everything has been created through him and for him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]He existed before everything
and holds everything together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He is also the head of the church, which is his body.
He is the beginning,
the first to come back to life
so that he would have first place in everything.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]God was pleased to have all of himself live in Christ. [SUP]20 [/SUP]God was also pleased to bring everything on earth and in heaven back to himself through Christ. He did this by making peace through Christ’s blood sacrificed on the cross.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

[SUP]15 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For [SUP][b][/SUP]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He [SUP][c][/SUP]is before all things, and in Him all things [SUP][d][/SUP]hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For [SUP][e][/SUP]it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the [SUP][f][/SUP]fullness to dwell in Him, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in [SUP][g][/SUP]heaven.

New Century Version (NCV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]No one can see God, but Jesus Christ is exactly like him. He ranks higher than everything that has been made. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Through his power all things were made—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all powers, authorities, lords, and rulers. All things were made through Christ and for Christ. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He was there before anything was made, and all things continue because of him. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the head of the body, which is the church. Everything comes from him. He is the first one who was raised from the dead. So in all things Jesus has first place. [SUP]19 [/SUP]God was pleased for all of himself to live in Christ. [SUP]20 [/SUP]And through Christ, God has brought all things back to himself again—things on earth and things in heaven. God made peace through the blood of Christ’s death on the cross.

New English Translation (NET)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]for all things in heaven and on earth were created in him—all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers—all things were created through him and for him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]He himself is before all things and all things are held together in him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the head of the body, the church, as well as the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in all things.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in the Son
[SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile all things to himself by making peace through the blood of his cross—through him, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Christ is the exact likeness of God, who can’t be seen. He is first, and he is over all of creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]All things were created by him. He created everything in heaven and on earth. He created everything that can be seen and everything that can’t be seen. He created kings, powers, rulers and authorities. Everything was created by him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Before anything was created, he was already there. He holds everything together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, which is the church. He is the beginning. He is the first to be raised from the dead. That happened so that he would be far above everything. [SUP]19 [/SUP]God was pleased to have his whole nature living in Christ. [SUP]20 [/SUP]God was pleased to bring all things back to himself because of what Christ has done. That includes all things on earth and in heaven. God made peace through Christ’s blood, through his death on the cross.

New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

New International Version - UK (NIVUK)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

New Life Version (NLV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Christ is as God is. God cannot be seen. Christ lived before anything was made. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Christ made everything in the heavens and on the earth. He made everything that is seen and things that are not seen. He made all the powers of heaven. Everything was made by Him and for Him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Christ was before all things. All things are held together by Him. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Christ is the head of the church which is His body. He is the beginning of all things. He is the first to be raised from the dead. He is to have first place in everything. [SUP]19 [/SUP]God the Father was pleased to have everything made perfect by Christ, His Son. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Everything in heaven and on earth can come to God because of Christ’s death on the cross. Christ’s blood has made peace.

Arwen4CJ · Feb 1, 2014

New Living Translation (NLT)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]16 [/SUP]for through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can’t see—
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Christ is also the head of the church,
which is his body.
He is the beginning,
supreme over all who rise from the dead.[SUP][b][/SUP]
So he is first in everything.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For God in all his fullness
was pleased to live in Christ,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him God reconciled
everything to himself.
He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth
by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; [SUP]16 [/SUP]for in[SUP][a][/SUP] him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He himself is before all things, and in[SUP][b][/SUP] him all things hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; [SUP]16 [/SUP]for in[SUP][a][/SUP] him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He himself is before all things, and in[SUP][b][/SUP] him all things hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; [SUP]16 [/SUP]for in[SUP][a][/SUP] him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He himself is before all things, and in[SUP][b][/SUP] him all things hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; [SUP]16 [/SUP]for in[SUP][a][/SUP] him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He himself is before all things, and in[SUP][b][/SUP] him all things hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach is the demut (BERESHIS 1:26-27; Pp 2:6) of the invisible G-d, the Bechor [TEHILLIM 89:27], the Yoresh (Heir) of kol hanivrah (all creation),
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Because in Him were created all things in Shomayim and on Ha’Aretz, the visible and the nistar (hidden), whether thrones or dominions, whether rulers or authorities, all things through Him and for Him have been created. [TEHILLIM 33:6]
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And Moshiach is before all things, and all things in Moshiach have been held together; [MISHLE 8:23-27; 30:4]
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Moshiach is the Rosh [MISHLE 8:22; 30:4] of the Geviyah (Body) [Gn 47:18; Ps 16:9-10; Isa 53:11; Job 19:25-27], and the Geviyah (nevilah, DEVARIM 21:23) is Moshiach’s Brit Chadasha Kehillah; Moshiach is its Reshit, the Bechor from the Mesim, that Moshiach might be in everything pre-eminent, [TEHILLIM 89:27]
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Because Hashem was pleased that all His fullness have its mishkan (tabernacle) in Moshiach,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And through Moshiach to bring ritztzuy (reconciliation, cessation of enmity, hostility between a wrathful holy G-d and sinful Bnei Adam) between all things and Himself, having made shalom through the dahm of the kapporah of HaEtz HaMoshiach [Dt 21:23; Isa 52:15; Lv 16:15-16], whether the things on HaAretz or the things in HaShomayim.

Revised Standard Version (RSV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; [SUP]16 [/SUP]for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born[SUP][a][/SUP] of all creation; [SUP]16 [/SUP]for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he[SUP][b][/SUP] might be pre-eminent. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

The Voice (VOICE)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the exact image of the invisible God, the firstborn of creation, the eternal. [SUP]16 [/SUP]It was by Him that everything was created: the heavens, the earth, all things within and upon them, all things seen and unseen, thrones and dominions, spiritual powers and authorities. Every detail was crafted through His design, by His own hands, and for His purposes. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He has always been! It is His hand that holds everything together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the head of this body, the church. He is the beginning, the first of those to be reborn from the dead, so that in every aspect, at every view, in everything—He is first. [SUP]19 [/SUP]God was pleased that all His fullness should forever dwell in the Son [SUP]20 [/SUP]who, as predetermined by God, bled peace into the world by His death on the cross as God’s means of reconciling to Himself the whole creation—all things in heaven and all things on earth.

World English Bible (WEB)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He is before all things, and in him all things are held together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For all the fullness was pleased to dwell in him; [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile all things to himself, by him, whether things on the earth, or things in the heavens, having made peace through the blood of his cross.

Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]The Son is like God who cannot be seen. He was his Son before anything was made.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He made everything in the sky and on the earth. He made the things which can be seen and the things which cannot be seen. That means angels, kings, great powers, and rulers. They were all made by him and for him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]He himself was before all things. And he holds all things together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He is also the head of the body which is the church [the people who believe in Jesus Christ]. He is the beginning, the first one to rise from death, so that he would be the first one in everything.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]God wanted Christ to have everything in himself.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And God chose him to be the one who would bring all things back to himself. God made peace by the blood which Christ gave on his cross. He would bring back all things on earth and in heaven.

Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Which is the image of God invisible, the first begotten of each creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For in him all things be made, in heavens and in earth, visible and invisible, either thrones, either dominations, either princehoods, either powers, all things be made of nought by him, and in him,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]and he is before all, and all things be in him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is head of the body of the church; which is the beginning and the first begotten of dead men, that he hold the first dignity in all things[SUP][a][/SUP].
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For in him it pleased all plenty to inhabit,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]and by him all things to be reconciled into him, and made peace by the blood of his cross, those things that be in earth's, either that be in heavens [either those things that be in earth's, or that be in heavens].

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] -- himself -- first,
[SUP]19 [/SUP]because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile the all things to himself -- having made peace through the blood of his cross -- through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.

VCO · Feb 1, 2014

danschance said:

According to Dr. Walter Martin, the member of the original NWT Translation Team with the most GREEK training, only had 2 years of Conversational Greek. That is not Biblical New Testament Greek, but modern day Greek, the way it is spoken today. Not exactly what I would call a Biblical Scholar either.

Arwen4CJ · Feb 1, 2014

NWL said:

In regard to Colossians 1:15-20, and how it is translated in the NWT vs. every other translation....

This is an example of how inserting the word "other," which isn't in the original Greek actually distorts the meaning of the text. Yes, I'm sure that the NWT translation committee did feel that inserting the word "other" there five times conveyed better what they felt the correct rendering should be....but in doing so, they put their bias into the translation.

If every time we came across a passage of Scripture and thought it would be clearer if we changed the words used, then this changes what Scripture actually says, which is dangerous to do. We can't just change the Bible to fit our own doctrine. That isn't intellectually honest of the translators.

I would say the same about any Bible translation that uses this process to edit any translation of the Bible.

Bowman · Feb 1, 2014

Arwen4CJ said:

In regard to Colossians 1:15-20, and how it is translated in the NWT vs. every other translation....

This is an example of how inserting the word "other," which isn't in the original Greek actually distorts the meaning of the text. Yes, I'm sure that the NWT translation committee did feel that inserting the word "other" there five times conveyed better what they felt the correct rendering should be....but in doing so, they put their bias into the translation.

If every time we came across a passage of Scripture and thought it would be clearer if we changed the words used, then this changes what Scripture actually says, which is dangerous to do. We can't just change the Bible to fit our own doctrine. That isn't intellectually honest of the translators.

I would say the same about any Bible translation that uses this process to edit any translation of the Bible.

Little wonder that the cults can't be bothered with the study of the original languages...

Bowman · Feb 1, 2014

johnluke said:

No.

In this case, Messenger of Yahweh.

The Second person of the Trinity is even referred to as Messenger in the NT, on occasion.

Malek Yahweh is El Shaddai, according to the OT.....so yes, it is worth spending the time to discuss.

I agree...

Why?

Bowman · Feb 1, 2014

johnluke said:

And Elohim spoke to Moses and said to him, I am Yahweh. And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as El Shaddai (God Almighty), and by My name, Yahweh, I have not been known to them. (Exo 6.2 – 3)

Here, we have the astounding revelation by the Triune God that the patriarchs did not know Him by His name, Yahweh.

If they did not know Him by His name, Yahweh, then what did they know Him by?

They knew Him by El Shaddai (God Almighty), The Son (Gen 17.1, 28.3, 35.11, 43.14, 48.3, 49.25).

Malek Yahweh, El Shaddai, also the Son, revealed to Moses that He was ‘I AM’ and Yahweh (Exo 3.14 – 15, 6.3).

The Triune God has always held one name. Even the NT confirms that the Father, Son & Spirit share the same singular name (Mat 28.19).

Bowman · Feb 1, 2014

johnluke said:

Each Person is Yahweh, according to scripture.

This same singular name of three persons’ baptism is the same as the Aaronic blessing in which the singular name of Yahweh is repeated three times (Num 6.22 – 27).

Arwen4CJ · Feb 1, 2014

NWL said:

The passage from Colossians is about the supremacy of Jesus Christ -- He has supremacy in all things. He is Lord over all of creation -- over all of created things.

Again, yes, He did die -- but that isn't what Colossians 1 is about. It is talking about Jesus Christ's supremacy....He is supreme over all of creation, supreme over death, etc. Jesus didn't have to die in order to gain this supremacy, but even in His death, Jesus showed His supremacy. In the context of Colossians 1, firstborn has to do with supremacy, but we can only know that by reading the context of the passage.

In the "firstborn" puppies question the context is different. I'll answer your question anyway....I have a feeling that you are waiting for me to answer this....No, a puppy could not be called the firstborn cat of a litter of kittens. Why? Because you are asking about a litter of kittens. Context says everything.

homwardbound · Feb 2, 2014

NWL said:

Do you believe Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah?
Do you believe he came in the flesh, went to the cross died there and was risen back to life and is now with Father as one in Spirit?

homwardbound · Feb 2, 2014

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Seems to me there is trinity and more maybe this was first hint in truth, and I am thankful through belief of and in Christ I am now one with God too!!!!!!!!!!!! anyone else 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1=one forever

Arwen4CJ · Feb 2, 2014

homwardbound said:

I'm not exactly clear what you are suggesting. Are you saying that you believe that God is more than just the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Are you saying that you believe that we will become God?

TrustinginHim777 · Feb 2, 2014

This conclusion below all began when reading the Book of John in 1999 (again) and noticing a significant difference in Jesus and His Father by Name.
Then in the Psalms, I 'realized' when we sang songs in church about 'Praising His Name' and we were singing a 'Psalm of David. ' The Name referred to Could not be Jesus
as Jesus had not yet come...or been given a name for thousands of year to follow.

My conclusion from reading the scriptures, while discarding tradition, is that there is but one God.

Jesus is a separate entity from the Father...How can he be the Father?
The Holy Spirit cannot exist apart from the Father/God.
This has not changed, in any way, God's plan of salvation for us.

I have 100 reasons, but this reply will not accept so many characters
so, I will list 50 and try the other 50 on another reply.:

1. Because Jesus Christ is represented by the sacred writers to be as distinct a being from God the Father as one man is distinct from another. “It is written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one who bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me” (John 8:17 and 18).
2. Because he never said that he, himself was God, but, on the contrary, spoke of the Father, who sent him, as God, and as the only God. “This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent” (John 17:3). This language our Saviour used in solemn prayer to “his Father and our Father.”
3. Because he is declared, in unnumbered instances, to be the Son of God. “And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matt. 3:17). Can a son be coeval (the same age) and the same with his father?
4. Because he is styled the Christ, or the anointed of God. “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power” (Acts 10:38). Is he who anoints the same with him who is anointed?
5. Because he is represented as a Priest. “Consider the ….High-Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus” (Heb. 3:1). The office of a priest is to minister to God. Christ, then, as a priest, cannot be God.
6. Because Christ is Mediator between the “One God,” and “men.” “For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5).
7. Because, as the Saviour of men, he was sent by the Father. “And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world” (1 John 4:14).
8. Because he is an Apostle appointed by God. “Consider the Apostle,...Christ Jesus, who was faithful to him that appointed him” (Heb. 3:1 and 2).
9. Because Christ is represented as our intercessor with God. “It is Christ that died, yea, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us” (Rom. 8:34).
10. Because the head of Christ is God. “I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of every woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God” (1 Cor. 11:3).
11. Because, in the same sense in which we are said to belong to Christ, Christ is said to belong to God. “And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s” (1 Cor. 3:23).
12. Because Christ says, “My father is greater than all” (John 10:29). Is not the father, then greater than the son?
13. Because he affirms, in another connection, and without the least qualification, “My Father is greater than I” (John 14:28).
14. Because he virtually denies that he is God, when he exclaims, “Why callest thou me Good? There is none good but one, that is God” (Matt. 19:17).
15. Because our Saviour, after having said, " I and my Father are one,” gives his disciples distinctly to understand that he did not mean one substance, equal in power and glory, but one only in affection and design, as clearly appears from the prayer he offers to his Father in their behalf, --“that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us” (John 17:21).
16. Because the Father is called the God of Christ as he is the God of Christians. Jesus saith unto her, “....Go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God” (John 20:17).
17. Because an Apostle says of God, in distinction from the “Lord Jesus Christ,” that He is the “only Potentate,” and that He “only hath immortality” (1 Tim. 6:15 and 16).
18. Because it is the express declaration of the same Apostle, that the Father is the one God, and there is none other. “Though there be that are called Gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) yet to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things” ( I Cor 8:5 and 6)).
19. Because the power which Christ possessed was, as him affirmed, given to him. “All power is given unto me” (Matt. 28:18).
20. Because he positively denies himself to be the author of his miraculous works, but refers them to the Father, or the holy spirit of God. “The Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works” (John 14:10). “If I cast out devils by the spirit of God” (Matt. 12:28).
21. Because he distinctly states, that these works bear witness, not to his own power, but that the Father had sent him (John 5:36).
22. Because he expressly affirms that the works were done, not in his own name, but in his Father’s name (John 10:25).
23. Because he asserts, that “him hath God the Father sealed,” i.e. to God the Father he was indebted for his credentials (John 6:27).
24. Because he declares that he is not the author of his own doctrine. “My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me” (John 7:16 and 17).
25. Because he represents himself as having been instructed by the Father. “As my Father hath taught me, I speak these things” (John 8:28).
26. Because he refers invariable to the Father as the origin of the authority by which he spoke and acted. “The Father hath given to the Son authority” (John 5:26 and 27).
27. Because he acknowledges his dependence on his heavenly Father for example and direction in all his doings. “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do” (John 5:19). “The Father loveth the Son, and showth him all things that himself doeth” (John 5:20).
28. Because he says, “I seek not mine own glory; but I honor my Father” (John 8:49 and 50).
29. Because he declares, “If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honoreth me” (John 8:54).
30. Because an Apostle declares, that in Christ dwelt all fullness, because it so pleased the Father (Col 1:19).
31. Because Christ is uniformly represented in the Scriptures, not as the primary, but the intermediate cause of all things relating to our salvation. “One God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him” (1 Cor 8:6).
32. Because he declares, “I am not come of myself” into the world, “for I proceeded forth and came from God” (John 8:42; 7:28). Jesus knowing… that he “came from God, and went to God” (John 13:3).
33. Because he affirms that he had not the disposal of the highest places in his own kingdom. “To sit on my right and on my left is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father” (Matt. 20:23).
34. Because our Saviour, referring his disciples to a future time, when they would understand more accurately concerning him, expressly declares that then they would know him to be entirely dependent upon the Father. “When ye have lifted up the Son of man (i.e. crucified him), then shall ye know that I am he (i.e. the Messiah), and that I do nothing of myself, but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things" (John 8:28).
35. Because our Saviour always professed to have no will of his own, but to be ever entirely guided and governed by the will of his heavenly Father. “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me” (John 6:38).
36. Because he expressly denies that he is possessed of Divine attribute of independent existence. “As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father” (John 6:57).
37. Because he expressly disclaims the possession of the Divine attribute of underived existence. “As the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself” (John 5:26).
38. Because he positively denies that he is possessed of the Divine attribute of omnipotence. “I can of mine own self do nothing” (John 5:30).
39. Because he expressly disclaims the possession of the Divine attribute of omniscience. “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but my Father only” (Matt. 24:36; Mark 13:32).
40. Because Christ is said in the Scriptures to have been “tempted of the devil” (Matt. 4:1). But “God can not be tempted with evil” (James 1:13).
41. Because it is related of our Saviour, that “he continued all night in prayer to God” (Luke 6:12). Why should Christ thus pray, if he himself were God?
42. Because, in presence of a numerous company before the resurrection, he gave thanks to the Father for having heard him. “Father, I thank thee that thou has heard me, and I knew that thou hearest me always” (John 11:41 and 42).
43. Because Jesus besought his Father to glorify him. “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thyself with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (John 17:5) . The one who prayed to God to glorify him, cannot be God.
44. Because he implored that, if it were possible, the bitter cup might pass from him, adding, “Nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt” (Matt. 26:39).
45. Because he said, “My God, my God, why hast Thous forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46). Can he who uttered this be the Supreme God?
46. Because he never paid his adoration to himself, the Son, nor to the Holy Ghost, as he should have done, had the Son and the Holy Ghost been God; but always to the Father.
47. Because he never instructed his disciples to worship himself or the Holy Ghost, but the Father, and the Father only. “When ye pray, say Our Father which art in heaven” (Luke 11:2). “In that day, ye shall ask me nothing. Whatsoever ye ask of the Father in my name” (John 16:23). “The hour cometh and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him” (John 4:23).
48. Because it was not the practice of the Apostles to pay religious homage to Christ, but to God the Father through Christ. “I thank God through Jesus Christ” (Rom. 7:25). “To God only wise, be glory through Christ” (Rom 16:27). “I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph. 3:14).
49. Because St. Peter, immediately after being filled with the Holy Spirit (holy spirit) on the Day of Pentecost thus addressed the Jews: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles, and wonders, and signs which God did by him, in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain; whom God hath raised up” (Acts 2:22-24).
50. Because St. Paul expressly states that, “all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ” (2 Cor. 5:18).

TrustinginHim777 · Feb 2, 2014

Here are the other 50 reasons that it appears that Jesus is not the Father and God, but rather His Only Begotten Son, as he himself stated.

51. Because the same Apostle gives “thanks to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 15:57).
52. Because it is said that it is “to the glory of God the Father,” that “every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord” (Phil. 2:11).
53. Because the Scriptures affirm that “Christ glorified not himself to be made a high priest, but He (glorified him) who said unto him, Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee” (Heb. 5:5).
54. Because it is expressly asserted that God gave to Christ the Revelation which was made to the author of the Apocalypse (Rev. 1:1).
55. Because an Apostle speaks of Christ, only as the image of God. “Who is the image of the invisible God” (Col 1:15; 2 Cor. 4:4). It would be absurd to call anyone his own image.
56. Because Christ is stated to be “the first-born of every creature” ( Col 1:15).
57. Because he is said to be “the beginning of the creation of God” (Rev 3:14).
58. Because the Scriptures affirm, in so many words, that “Jesus was made a little lower than the angels” (Heb. 2:9). Can God become lower than his creatures?
59. Because Peter declares that “Christ received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, this is my beloved son” (2 Peter 1:17).
60. Because it is represented as necessary that the Saviour of mankind should “be made like unto his brethren” (Heb. 2:17).
61. Because, in the Epistle to the Hebrews, Christ is compared with Moses in a manner that would be impious if he were the Supreme God. “For this man (Christ) was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch” (Heb. 3:3).
62. Because he is represented as being the servant, the chosen, the beloved of God, and the recipient of God’s spirit. “Behold, my servant, whom I have chosen, in whom my soul is well pleased; I will put my spirit upon him” (Matt. 12:18).
63. Because he himself expressly declares that it was in consequence of his doing what pleased the Father, that the Father was with him and did not leave him alone. “He that sent me is with me; the Father hath not left me alone, for I do always those things that please him” (John 8:29).
64. Because he is said to have “increased in wisdom, and in favor with God and man” (Luke 2:52).
65. Because he speaks of himself as one who had received commands from the Father. “The Father, who sent me, he gave me a commandment” (John 12:49).
66. Because he is represented as obeying the Father, and as having been “obedient unto death” (Phil 2:8) “Even as the Father said unto me, so I speak” (John 12:50). “I have kept my Father’s commandments” (John 15:10).
67. Because Christ “Learned obedience by the things he suffered,” and through sufferings was made perfect by God (Heb. 5:8).
68. Because he is spoken of in the Scriptures as the first born among many brethren (Rom. 8:29). Has God brethren?
69. Because Christ calls everyone who obeys God his brother. “Whosoever shall do the will of my Father in heaven, the same is my brother” (Matt. 12:50).
70. Because he offers to the faithful the like distinction and honor that himself has with the Father. “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am sit down with my Father in his throne” (Rev. 3:21).
71. Because God, in the later ages, hath spoken by his Son, and appointed him heir of all things (Heb. 1:2) 72. Because Christ is styled the first-begotten of the dead. (Rev. 1:5).
73. Because it is declared that God raised him from the dead. “This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we are all witnesses” (Acts 2:32; Rom. 10:9 and 10).
74. Because God poured out upon the Apostles the Holy Spirit, through Jesus Christ (Titus 3:6).
75. Because the reason assigned for the Holy Spirit not having been received earlier, is that Jesus was not then glorified. “The Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) was not yet given because that Jesus was not yet glorified” (John 7:39).
76. Because it is affirmed that Christ was exalted by God to be a Prince and a Saviour (Acts 5:31).
77. Because God made that same Jesus, who was crucified, both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36).
78. Because God gave him a name which is above every name (Phil. 2:9).
79. Because Christ was ordained of God to be the judge of the quick and the dead (Acts 10:42).
80. Because God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ (Rom. 2:16).
81. Because all judgment is committed to Christ by the Father (John 5:22).
82. Because our Saviour grounds the importance of his judgment solely upon the circumstances, that it is not exclusively his own judgment which he pronounces, but that of the Father who sent him. “If I judge, my judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me” (John 8:16).
83. Because it is said, that, when he was received up into heaven, he “sat on the right hand of God” (Mark 16:19).
84. Because St. Paul affirms, that Christ, even since his ascension, “liveth unto God,” and “liveth by the power of God” (Rom. 6:10; 2 Cor. 12:4).
85. Because it is affirmed of Christ, that “when all things shall be subdued under him then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Cor. 15:28).
86. Because the Apostle John asserts that “no man hath seen God at any time”; which is not true, if Christ were God (John 1:18).
87. Because, in the prophecies of the Old Testament that relate to Christ, he is spoken of as a being distinct from and inferior to God (Deut. 18:15; John 1:45).
88. Because the Jews never expected that any other than a being distinct from and inferior to God was to be their Messiah, and yet there is no evidence that our Saviour ever so much as hinted to them that this expectation was erroneous.
89. Because it does not appear from the Scriptures, that the Jews, except in two instances (See #90), ever opposed our Saviour on the ground that he pretended to be God or equal with God; whereas, had it been his custom to assume such identity or equality, in his conversation with a people so strongly attached to the doctrine of the divine unity, he would have found himself involved in a perpetual controversy with them on this point, some traces of which must have appeared in the New Testament.
90. Because in these two instances, when charged, in the one case, with making himself God, and in the other, with making himself equal with God, he positively denies the charges. In reply to the charge of assuming to be equal with God, he says immediately, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do”; and directly after, “I can of mine own self do nothing” (John 5:19 and 30). In answer to the charge of making himself God, he appeals to the Jews in substance thus: Your own Scriptures call Moses a god, and your magistrates gods; I am surely not inferior to them, yet I did not call myself God, but only the Son of God(John 10:34-36) 91. Because, had his immediate disciples believe him to be the Almighty, would they have been so familiar with him, have argued with him, betrayed him, denied him, fled from him, and left him to be dragged to the cross?
92. Because the Apostles, after they had been filled with the Holy Ghost (holy spirit) on the day of Pentecost, did not preach that Christ was God; but preached what was altogether inconsistent with such a doctrine (Acts 2:22; 13:23; 17:3 and 31; 22:8).
93. Because there is no evidence to prove that the first converts to Christianity ever incurred the imputation of idolatry from the Jews, as they must have done had they believed and taught that the Son, as well as the Father, is Jehovah; while it is notorious that this imputation has been among the most common of the Jewish reproaches against Christians, since the Trinity became a doctrine of the Church.
94. Because there are in the New Testament seventeen passages, wherein the Father is styled one or only God, while there is not a single passage in which the Son is so styled.
95. Because there are 320 passages in which the Father is absolutely, and by way of eminence, called God; while there is not one in which the Son is thus called.
96. Because there are 105 passages in which the Father is denominated God, with peculiarly high titles and epithets, whereas the Son is not once denominated.
97. Because there are 90 passages wherein it is declared that all prayers and praises ought to be offered to Him, and that everything ought to be ultimately directed to his honor and glory; while of the Son no such declaration is ever made.
98. Because of 1,300 passages in the New Testament wherein the word God is mentioned, not one necessarily implies the existence of more than one person in the Godhead, or that this one is any other than the Father.
99. Because the passages wherein the Son is declared, positively, or by clearest implication, to be subordinate to the Father, deriving his being from Him, receiving from Him his divine power, and acting in all things wholly according to His will, are in number above 300.
100. Because, in a word, the supremacy of the Father, and the inferiority of the Son, is the simple, unembarrassed, and current doctrine of the Bible; whereas, that of their equality or identity is clothed in mystery, encumbered with difficulties, and dependent, at the best, upon few passages for support.

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phil36 · Feb 2, 2014

Hi trusting in him.

So after all that typing you still haven't told us who you think Jesus is? or more importantly what jesus is?

Arwen4CJ · Feb 2, 2014

TrustinginHim777 said:

Hello there. It would be nice if you could give a few points of discussion at a time rather than a list of 100 things that we cannot possibly respond to all at once, but maybe you didn't want a discussion with this. Maybe you just wanted to give your 100 reasons that you believe as you do.

So, my question to you is this: Do you want to discuss anything specific, or did you just want to share your view?

My suggestion to you if you want to discuss this, is please choose one of your points for us to talk about, and we can discuss that, and then you can bring up another. It's too hard to address 100 points all at once.

If, however, you do not wish to debate any of the points, but just wanted to give a list of your reasons, that is fine. I would still encourage you to read through this thread and read some counter points to your points, but that is all up to you.

Arwen4CJ · Feb 2, 2014

TrustinginHim777,

I suppose we could address your points, keeping it in the same format as you did.....but as we have already discussed many of these things earlier in the thread, I want to make sure that you are actually here for a discussion.

I'm not going to attempt to respond to 100 points if you just came on here and posted your reasons, but do not intend to engage.

So I need to know -- do you want to discuss your points?

TrustinginHim777 · Feb 2, 2014

This is the first time I have been on this site.
I don't spend a lot of time on the computer.
That is why I 'laid' it all out there.
It took me 60 years to see this..
I will try to answer any questions.

There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

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