A
Of course I admitted I don't accept things based on face value, the Bible cautions us against judging ‘according to face value.’ 2 Corinthians 10:7
However, there are some interesting verses here...
2 Corinthians 10:1-18 (NASB)
10 Now I, Paul, myself urge you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ—I who am [SUP][a][/SUP]meek when face to face with you, but bold toward you when absent! [SUP]2 [/SUP]I ask that when I am present I need not be bold with the confidence with which I propose to be courageous against some, who regard us as if we walked according to the flesh. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, [SUP]4 [/SUP]for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but [SUP][b][/SUP]divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.[SUP]5 [/SUP]We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.
[SUP]7 [/SUP][SUP][c][/SUP]You are looking at [SUP][d][/SUP]things as they are outwardly. If anyone is confident in himself that he is Christ’s, let him consider this again within himself, that just as he is Christ’s, so also are we. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For even if I boast somewhat [SUP][e][/SUP]further about our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for destroying you, I will not be put to shame, [SUP]9 [/SUP][SUP][f][/SUP]for I do not wish to seem as if I would terrify you by my letters. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his [SUP][g][/SUP]personal presence is unimpressive and his speech contemptible.” [SUP]11 [/SUP]Let such a person consider this, that what we are in word by letters when absent, such persons we are also in deed when present.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For we are not bold to class or compare ourselves with [SUP][h][/SUP]some of those who commend themselves; but when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are without understanding. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But we will not boast beyond our measure, but [SUP][i][/SUP]within the measure of the sphere which God apportioned to us as a measure, to reach even as far as you. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For we are not overextending ourselves, as if we did not reach to you, for we were the first to come even as far as you in the gospel of Christ; [SUP]15 [/SUP]not boasting beyond our measure, that is, in other men’s labors, but with the hope that as your faith grows, we will be, [SUP][j][/SUP]within our sphere, enlarged even more by you, [SUP]16 [/SUP]so as to preach the gospel even to the regions beyond you, and not to boast [SUP][k][/SUP]in what has been accomplished in the sphere of another. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But he who boasts is to boast in the Lord. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For it is not he who commends himself that is approved, but he whom the Lord commends.
You keep saying that "all of creation being created through Jesus still makes Him Creator" but yet you've already acknowledge two facts, that 'the Father is the originator of creation' and not Jesus (Heb 1:1,2) thus showing the Father is the Creator. Secondly that simply because someone picks up pieces of a already made up design and creates doesn't imply he's the original creator, those two facts which you agreed with conflict with the idea that Jesus is also the creator. Your in denial you just don't know it my friend.
The Bible doesn't say that Jesus picked up the pieces that the Father made. That is your own assumption that you are reading into the text.
What I was agreeing to is that the Father created through Jesus --- both the Father and the Son are the Creator because they both are YHWH.
So when Jesus said to the Jewish judges, "you are gods" does that mean that those Judges should be understood as false gods?
Just remember that when the NWT inserts words into scripture (in order to convey a better meaning) there is another Bible and another translator -both trinitarian and non alike- that has translated the verse the same, it is a lie that only the NWT adds words in to convey better what they feel to be the correct rendering, in fact all Bibles do this.
The more paraphrase there is in the translation, the less literal (accurate) it actually is. It also increases the possibility that the translators are putting their own bias into the translation. If the translators are going to use a lot of paraphrase, and their rendering of a particular passage is something that is so different that no other translation agrees, the translators had better have a good justification for rendering it their way. "This is what we believe," is not good justification for Bible "translation."
I didn't say no other Bible translation other than the NWT added words in.
It, however, is a fact that the translators behind the NWT rendered certain passages in a certain way in order to make the Bible appear to agree with Jehovah's Witness doctrine. This is why no biblical scholar respects the NWT as a legitimate translation, including the theologically liberal ones, many of whom would agree with some JW doctrine.
I already listed John 1:1 a few posts back.
Colossians 1:5-20 (NWT)
[SUP]5[/SUP] He is the image of the invisible God,+ the firstborn of all creation;+ [SUP]16[/SUP] because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,+ whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him+ and for him. [SUP]17[/SUP] Also, he is before all other things,+ and by means of him all other things were made to exist, [SUP]18[/SUP] and he is the head of the body, the congregation.+ He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead,+ so that he might become the one who is first in all things; [SUP]19[/SUP] because God was pleased to have all fullness to dwell in him,+ [SUP]20[/SUP] and through him to reconcile to himself all other things+ by making peace through the blood+ he shed on the torture stake,* whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.
Please look at the word I put in bold there. "Other." That word is not in the Greek. It was inserted in the NWT so that the text would not read that Jesus was above all things, thus obscuring Jesus' deity and supremacy in this verse. They are not being intellectually honest here. They are passing this off as if it is part of the actual text of Scripture.
No wonder you have a totally different understanding of this passage. The NWT renders it so that it makes it sound like Jesus is a created being. No other translation does this.
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by Him were all things created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He might have the preeminence.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fullness dwell,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]and having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself — by Him, I say, whether they be things on earth or things in heaven.
American Standard Version (ASV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it was the good pleasure of the Father that in him should all the fulness dwell;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile all things unto himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him, I say, whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens.
Amplified Bible (AMP)
[SUP]15 [/SUP][Now] He is the [SUP][a][/SUP]exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For it was in Him that all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [by His service, intervention] and in and for Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And He Himself existed before all things, and in Him all things consist (cohere, are held together).
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He also is the Head of [His] body, the church; seeing He is the Beginning, the Firstborn from among the dead, so that He alone in everything and in every respect might occupy the chief place [stand first and be preeminent].
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it has pleased [the Father] that all the divine fullness (the sum total of the divine perfection, powers, and attributes) should dwell in Him [SUP][b][/SUP]permanently.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And God purposed that through ([SUP][c][/SUP]by the service, the intervention of) Him [the Son] all things should be completely reconciled [SUP][d][/SUP]back to Himself, whether on earth or in heaven, as through Him, [the Father] made peace by means of the blood of His cross.
Common English Bible (CEB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]The Son is the image of the invisible God,
the one who is first over all creation,[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Because all things were created by him:
both in the heavens and on the earth,
the things that are visible and the things that are invisible.
Whether they are thrones or powers,
or rulers or authorities,
all things were created through him and for him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]He existed before all things,
and all things are held together in him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the head of the body, the church,
who is the beginning,
the one who is firstborn from among the dead[SUP][b][/SUP]
so that he might occupy the first place in everything.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Because all the fullness of God was pleased to live in him,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] and he reconciled all things to himself through him—
whether things on earth or in the heavens.
He brought peace through the blood of his cross.
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the visible image of the invisible God. He is supreme over all creation, [SUP]16 [/SUP]because in connection with him were created all things — in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, lordships, rulers or authorities — they have all been created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He existed before all things, and he holds everything together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Also he is head of the Body, the Messianic Community — he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might hold first place in everything. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased God to have his full being live in his Son [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through his Son to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace through him, through having his Son shed his blood by being executed on a stake.
Contemporary English Version (CEV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Christ is exactly like God,
who cannot be seen.
He is the first-born Son,
superior to all creation.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Everything was created by him,
everything in heaven
and on earth,
everything seen and unseen,
including all forces
and powers,
and all rulers
and authorities.
All things were created
by God’s Son,
and everything was made
for him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]God’s Son was before all else,
and by him everything
is held together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He is the head of his body,
which is the church.
He is the very beginning,
the first to be raised
from death,
so that he would be
above all others.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]God himself was pleased
to live fully in his Son.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And God was pleased
for him to make peace
by sacrificing his blood
on the cross,
so that all beings in heaven
and on earth
would be brought back to God.
Darby Translation (DARBY)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]who is image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]because by him were created all things, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or principalities, or authorities: all things have been created by him and for him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And *he* is before all, and all things subsist together by him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And *he* is the head of the body, the assembly; who is [the] beginning, firstborn from among the dead, that *he* might have the first place in all things:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]for in him all the fulness [of the Godhead] was pleased to dwell,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]and by him to reconcile all things to itself, having made peace by the blood of his cross—by him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all, and by him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fullness should dwell;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven.