The Letter to the Romans...

[Elin]

Christ's death on the cross paid the penalty for the sin of those who believe in him.

Christ's resurrection acquitted us of guilt (justified) in that it showed the Father
did regard our debt as paid, his justice as satisfied and we do, indeed,
have a guiltless right standing before him, which reconciles us.

However, keep in mind that Paul more often refers to Christ's death on the cross without
the resurrection, assuming its inclusion rather than as a separate work, in reconciling us
to God (e.g., Col 1:20; Eph 2:16; 2Co 5:20-21).

The sprinkling of Christ's blood in heaven is the application of his blood'sbenefits
through his ever-living intercession for us in the presence of God (Heb 9:23-24).

Elin I started a thread replying to this post to debate you on this point.

did-christs-death-atone-did-christs-life-atone

You will have a lot of NT Scripture to overcome if you present anything but his sacrificial death
as atonement (propitiation), starting with Ro 3:25 and Mt 26:28:

"God presented him as a sacrifice (death) of atonement (propitiation)." (Ro 3:25)

"This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out (death) for many
for the forgiveness of sin (salvation)." (Mt 26:28)

Salvation/redemption from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) is by forgiveness of sin (Mt 26:28; Col 1:14;
Eph 1:7, 2:13; 1Pe 1:18-19) which forgiveness removes our guilt (Ro 5:18a, 19a) and God's wrath
on our guilt (Ro 5:9).

And then there's Mt 20:28 - Jesus died as a ransom to redeem (save) us from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9)

also 1Ti 2:6; Heb 2:17, 9:12, 14, 13:12; 1Jn 4:10; Ac 20:28.

You must reconcile to the above Scriptures, and not set against themselves, whatever Scriptures you present.

 

[homwardbound]

It was the name for the cover of the Ark in the Holy of Holies.

The animal sacrifices of the OT only covered sin (Ro 4:7), they did not take away sin (Heb 10:4).

The sins of the OT saints were only covered, they were not remitted (taken away) until Christ
shed his blood on the cross (Ro 3:25).


I'm not sure where you get that the High Priest who offered sacrifice was pure.

The High Priest who offered the great sin sacrifice on the Day of Atonement was not pure
(Heb 5:1-3, 7:27-28).
His sins were only covered (Heb 10:4) by the special sin offering (Lev 16:4, 11-14,)
which he made before the great sin offering (Lev 16:15-16) on the Day of Atonement,
for defilement of the tabernacle by being in the midst of a sinful people (Lev 16:16).

But that occurred only once a year, on the Day of Atonement.

Sacrifices were offered every day, but their blood was not taken in the Most Holy Place,
it was sprinkled on, and poured out at the base of, the altar.

And Hebrews shows us the meaning of this physical picture depicting an immaterial heaven.

"For it was necessary, then. . .for the heavenly things to be purified with better sacrifices than these.
For Christ. . .entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence (Heb 9:23-24)
where he ever lives to make intercession (Ro 8:34; Heb 7:25).

Christ's sacrifice (blood) is presented in heaven in his daily intercession in the presence of God
for us, where Christ applies the benefits of (sprinkles) his blood; e.g.,
guaranteeing our redemption,
working out everything for us in accordance with God's will,
preparing a place for us.


I'm not sure where you get this.

Christ's blood was poured out at the base of the cross (Jn 19:34, 36-37; Lk 22:20) just as
the blood of the sacrificial animal was poured out at the base of the altar (Lev 4:7, 18, 25, 30, 34).


That assumes physical meaning of an immaterial heavenly reality, which Hebrews indicates (above)
is not a physical sprinkling of it, but the application of its benefits through Christ's ever-living
intercession for us.

The sprinkling of the blood on the horns of the altars on the Day of Atonement
was the application of the blood's benefits; i.e., cleansing of the holy things from defilement.


The Greek word translated "touch" here is haptomai, which means "to hold on, to embrace."

Jesus is telling her that she can no longer have him in the physically human way as before,
but can have him now only through the Holy Spirit, whom he will send after he returns to heaven.


It means he had not yet ascended to the presence of his Father where he would apply
the benefits of (sprinkle) his blood in ever-living intercession for us.


Christ's death on the cross paid the penalty for the sin of those who believe in him.

Christ's resurrection acquitted us of guilt (justified) in that it showed the Father
did regard our debt as paid, his justice as satisfied and we did, indeed,
have a guiltless right standing before him, reconciling us.

However, keep in mind that Paul more often refers to Christ's death on the cross without
the resurrection, assuming its inclusion rather than as a separate work, in reconciling us
to God (e.g., Col 1:20; Eph 2:16; 2Co 5:20-21).

The sprinkling of Christ's blood in heaven is the application of his blood's benefits
through his ever-living intercession for us in the presence of God (Heb 9:23-24).

Agreed Christ came to take away not atone for, Christ the pure and is the hight priest today that lives forever

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Think we should have no more conscience of sin, and will if we believe he took away sin, not atoned
If we have been cleansed, which by Christ we have, shall we sin, having no more conscience to sin, I mean we have the message of reconciliation do we not?

 

[homwardbound]

Note the dilemma.

Sin was in the world when there was no law,
but when there is no law, sin is not taken into account.

So how could there be guilt of sin which causes death (Ro 6:23)

when sin was not taken into account?

Because God told Adam and Eve what would be if they ate from that tree. Death was put in place by that eating of and all are born of the flesh after the similitude of Adam and Eve
Not alive in the Spirit, yet through Christ we recieve the new life in the Spirit from God a gift to us. Adam and Eve were only living Souls before the eating of that tree of evil. They were not alive to flesh or Spirit at the time of eating, but after were made aware and knew they were naked, and went and hid. God then guarded the tree of life, protecting it until the time of Christ. For if man at that time ate from it he would have gained life, everlastng in the flesh and wow, evil would wow!~ anyway, just food for thought

 

[homwardbound]

Romans 6:1-2

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?​

What Paul's Saying...

(Paul's addressing something new at this point of the letter, in context to his previous point that "more revealed sin result in more grace from God"). First he shoots down the idea that the believer should continue in sin simply to increase grace. Then (new point) he says the believer in Christ has died to sin.

Now let's go back a few thoughts...

1. Sin entered the world through one man's disobedience, Adam...so sin exists.
2. Then the giving of God's Law revealed more sin (i.e. showing more actions of man that are in fact "sins").
3. But Paul says the believer is not to continue in sin (i.e. they're no longer weak to it because of Christ's grace).
4. Thus, "not continuing in sin" = "not performing those actions now being revealed by God's Law to be sins".
5. Because the believer is "dead to sin".


If you agree with this interpretation, “like” it.

If you disagree with this interpretation, post an alternative for others to agree with.

If you’d like further elaboration of any interpretation, feel free to ask them.

Click the arrow in any quote to view original post.

If one is dead to sin, how can sin trouble him? Just as if one is drowned by the rain, how can the rain trouble him anymore?

Romans 1-5 is one writing to explain the truth of Grace and 6-8 is another view of the same if we did not get it in 1-5
Coming at it from a different angle in what he is trying to convey to us, and 6:11 reveals to us how to believe as being dead to flesh

 

[homwardbound]

Alternative.

After contrasting the one sin of Adam which brought condemnation on all men
with many sins under the law to which the gift brought justification (v. 20),

Paul concludes that "just as" the law made sin increase,
so sin made grace increase all the more, so that
"just as" sin reigned in death,
so grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life.

So in Ro 5:12-21, we learn that

our own sinfulness is not the ground for our condemnation,
it is our guilt of Adam's sin that condemns us,
the very nature with which we are born condemns us (Eph 2:3)

and our own holiness is not the ground for our justification,
Jesus Christ is, through faith alone.

Because the fight to this day is flesh verses the Spirit of God
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
So is Paul revealing to us to be dead to flesh in our thoughts and alive top Christ in the Spirit of God?"

 

[homwardbound]

Elin and all, The GROUND of our salvation, (Sancti. and Justi. etc.) is the life, death and the resurrection of Jesus; But, the MEANS of out salvation is the Grace of god , our faith and our works. This is what I will die for. It is the whole truth. This is what I have been rejected for, all my life, by the apostate Church and church, (evang. and liberal), of today.Hoffco

What are the works you speak of, yours or God's through you by Faith? Just seeking clarity.

 

[homwardbound]

I see more of your original intent ,but I would reject your method of finding whole truth of the Bible. SO, what you are doing is called Biblical theology not Systematic theology; Which is Ok, good ,but ,it will take yrs. to come to a real systematic theo. using your approach; meanwhile ,the youny Christian is not getting the Whole truth, and will be discouraged, if not fooled,as Elin and homward is, Sorry, that they thinks they have an understanding of the whole truth , when they hves accepted a half truth ,which is a lie. this is the sickness of the Church today, half truths which are deceiving the Church. Love to all. Hoffco

I am laughing loud at your condemnation as if you know, and we are decieved, God bless you Hoffco, do you really have the right to condemn? Go ahead do so, love you anyway and praise God for you.
Pray for those that persecute you? Have I or Elin persecuted you? Or or we saying what we see and trust God to show us truth as we each grow in different stages.
I, her and you we all could be wrong, so I ask you this are we:
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

So brother you please consider what we say, as well as we consider what you say, For bottom line it is God:
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

I am smothered and covered safe and secure are you? Praying so, for I know God loves you the same as all people
Praying you see the difference between flesh and Spirit of God

 

[Hoffco]

To the Brethren, The Scriptures command us to rebuke, reprove and correct each other; Sorry, If I get a bit strong, pointing the finger of blame at you guys and gals, it is just part of the process of trying to get you to dig deeper. What has been taught in the time I have been around, has been tragic failure of false theology. I am sick and tired of it. I pray for God to give me some honor or get me out of this terrible mess. But, at other times, I am on top of the mountain, looking over to glory land ,preaching my heart out, getting the praise of those who hear the truth; only to be cut down by "well meaning Christians" but seriously wrong. Only by the grace of God do I carry on. I love the ministry most when I evangelize the lost and get amens from those who hear me, God is in control. Sorry, but not so sorry that I would stop giving the light, the whole truth, Love to all Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

In Rom. 2:13 Paul mentions "(For not the hearers of the law are just (legally and/or morally) in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;" (forgiven) Paul has not dealt with justification up to this point and will not deal with it until ch 3:20-5:18. 3:20 "But now the righteousness of God apart from the law" (obeying the law) "is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets," v. 22 "...through faith.." v.24 "...Being justified freely by His grace..." (Titus 3:7 "That having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.") Rom. 4:24 "But also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead," Rom.5:17-18 "...much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)...even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life." In Rom.5:19 Paul moves from justification to sanctification. The word"imputed" will not be used. The word "made" is now used, MADE means to create ,construct, build. 5:19 "...so as by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous."vs.20,21, "Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more," ( grace transformed sinners into holy saints, chs. 1&2) v.21 "So that sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Paul con'ts to teach sanctification in chs.6,7,8, (5:19-8:32) 8:33 introduces ELECTION . Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Ch.5 ends with"so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life though Jesus Christ our Lord." AND ch. 6 will end with,"But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life....the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our lord." One must obey God to gain eternal life, as Heb.5: 9 clearly says,""eternal life to all who obey Him" .(JESUS) There are two side to the free gift. 1. new birth 2 forgiveness of sins. In chs. 5:19-8:14 Paul is talking of the New Birth, Sancti. begun and con't in the christian life. The gift of life,by grace, results in holiness of life which is rewarded with the promise of eternal life. As is the gift of forgiveness, is by grace, resulting in freedom from guilt of conscience and the promise of eternal life. Therefore the message is: Repent Trust and Obey to gain eternal. Hoffco

 

[homwardbound]

On second thought,

you have omitted Paul's presentation of NT baptism here.

It is the when and how of our death to sin.
Note that in NT times water baptism closely followed conversion
and the two were considered one event (Ac 2:38: "Repent and be baptized
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins," which is salvation).

Our union with Christ in baptism into his death is a
union in the benefits purchased by his death, and
a union which enters into the purpose of his death, which was to redeem us from sin and,
therefore, conforms to the model of his death, by dying to sin, as he died for sin.

Baptism shows what happens as a result of our union with Christ, through faith by grace.
Through faith we are united with Christ,

as previously we were united with Adam through physical birth and, therefore, were born
without Holy Spirit life in our spirits (5:18a, 19a), and subject to physical death.

And being united with Christ, instead of Adam,
in baptism we have died with Christ, who died for sin,
and been raised with Christ, to die to sin.

And that Baptism talked of in Romans 6 does not say water or Spirit Baptism does it?
And Ephesians 5 says there is only one Baptism
And John says he only Baptizes with water, where as Christ, will Baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire
Now Christ is resurrected from the dead and the Day of Pentecost is past, and the Baptism has taken place.
And in Acts 1:5 is states about John:
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

So after the Baptism of the Spirit of God, I see the Romans passage saying Baptism in the Spirit of God by God and with out water for this is what death is in the flesh to be.
Why do I say this? Because as Peter began to preach to Cornelius's household, the Holy Spirit of God fell upon them before any water Baptism, and later in Acts Peter:
[h=3]Acts 10:44-45[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]44 [/SUP]While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [SUP]45 [/SUP]And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[h=3]Acts 11:15-17[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


[SUP]15 [/SUP]And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

I think it important in determining what Baptism is spoken of there in Romans 6, Water or Spirit
Which one brings life water or Spirit?

 

[homwardbound]

To the Brethren, The Scriptures command us to rebuke, reprove and correct each other; Sorry, If I get a bit strong, pointing the finger of blame at you guys and gals, it is just part of the process of trying to get you to dig deeper. What has been taught in the time I have been around, has been tragic failure of false theology. I am sick and tired of it. I pray for God to give me some honor or get me out of this terrible mess. But, at other times, I am on top of the mountain, looking over to glory land ,preaching my heart out, getting the praise of those who hear the truth; only to be cut down by "well meaning Christians" but seriously wrong. Only by the grace of God do I carry on. I love the ministry most when I evangelize the lost and get amens from those who hear me, God is in control. Sorry, but not so sorry that I would stop giving the light, the whole truth, Love to all Hoffco

Hoffco, Thank you and I am growing just as you are, learning, discerning truth over error, the truth that sets us free to love as God does. So Thank you and let us each consider each other and turn it all over to God to teach us truth from error since it is the truth that:
John 8:32
and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be freeindeed.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[homwardbound]

Ch.5 ends with"so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life though Jesus Christ our Lord." AND ch. 6 will end with,"But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life....the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our lord." One must obey God to gain eternal life, as Heb.5: 9 clearly says,""eternal life to all who obey Him" .(JESUS) There are two side to the free gift. 1. new birth 2 forgiveness of sins. In chs. 5:19-8:14 Paul is talking of the New Birth, Sancti. begun and con't in the christian life. The gift of life,by grace, results in holiness of life which is rewarded with the promise of eternal life. As is the gift of forgiveness, is by grace, resulting in freedom from guilt of conscience and the promise of eternal life. Therefore the message is: Repent Trust and Obey to gain eternal. Hoffco

I see if there is any working for, before or after the receiving God's gift of new life, nullifies a gift. A gift is a gift period, no works involved in a gift otherwise the gift is no longer a gift. Yet after one receives the gift of new life, there is a response to God the Father of:
Psalm 100:4 Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.

Now if one is too busy in this above scripture, is there any time for sin?
I mean won't one be walking:
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

 

[Hizikyah]

I see if there is any working for, before or after the receiving God's gift of new life, nullifies a gift. A gift is a gift period, no works involved in a gift otherwise the gift is no longer a gift. Yet after one receives the gift of new life, there is a response to God the Father of:
Psalm 100:4 Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.

Now if one is too busy in this above scripture, is there any time for sin?
I mean won't one be walking:
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Did Shaul "nullify his gift?"

1 Corinthians 9:24-27, "Do you not know that those who run in a race all compete, but only one receives the prize? So run your race that you may lay hold of the prize, and make it yours. And everyone who competes conducts himself temperately in all things. Now they compete to obtain a perishable crown; but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore, I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man who beats the air. No, I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified."

 

[Hizikyah]

I see if there is any working for, before or after the receiving God's gift of new life, nullifies a gift.

Was "nullification" being preached here?

Yaaqob 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."

 

[Hizikyah]

I see if there is any working for, before or after the receiving God's gift of new life, nullifies a gift.

Or here:

1 Yahchanan 3:7, "Little children, let no man deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."

Yahchanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

Or are you preaching a different message than Scripture does?

 

[Elin]

And that Baptism talked of in Romans 6 does not say water or Spirit Baptism does it?

It was by human hands with water in Ac 2:38, 8:16, 36, 10:45-46, 19:5-6; Mt 28:19.

 

[Elin]

Did Shaul "nullify his gift?"

The "gift" is eternal life, unmerited, unearned, absolutely free.

If one works to earn eternal life, one nullifies its free gift status.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

, "Do you not know that those who run in a race all compete, but only one receives the prize? So run your race that you may lay hold of the prize, and make it yours. And everyone who competes conducts himself temperately in all things. Now they compete to obtain a perishable crown; but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore, I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man who beats the air. No, I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified."

In 1 Co 9:24-27 above, Paul is not talking about the free gift of eternal life through faith by grace,

he is talking about the reward/prize for the quality of one's work.

1Co 9:24-27 is in the context of 1Co 3:10-15, 9:20-21:

1Co 3:13-15 - "fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives,
he will receive his reward/prize. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved,
but only as one escaping through the flames."

1Co 9:21-21 - "I myself am not under the law. . .but am under Christ's law (of eternal life
by faith only, Jn 3:18, 36)."

Eternal life has nothing to do with law keeping.
Stop mixing and muddling them.

Paul ran his race "in such a way as to get the reward/prize" (1Co 9:24), so that he himself would
"not be disqualified for the reward/prize" (1Co 9:27).

The reward/prize is not about eternal life, but about the quality of one's work.

One's works may not stand up to the test, nevertheless,

one does not lose his eternal life and is still saved. (1Co 3:15).

Now stop mixing the right things in the wrong way (Lev 19:19).
Stop mixing law with grace.

 

[Hizikyah]

The "gift" is eternal life, unmerited, unearned, absolutely free.

If one works to earn eternal life, one nullifies its free gift status.

I did not say one could earn it I asked about a few verses.

Are these people fallen because the said/believed the things they did?
Did Shaul "nullify his gift?"

1 Corinthians 9:24-27, "Do you not know that those who run in a race all compete, but only one receives the prize? So run your race that you may lay hold of the prize, and make it yours. And everyone who competes conducts himself temperately in all things. Now they compete to obtain a perishable crown; but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore, I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man who beats the air. No, I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified."

Was "nullification" being preached here?

Yaaqob 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."

Or here:

1 Yahchanan 3:7, "Little children, let no man deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."

Yahchanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

Or are you preaching a different message than Scripture does?

Now stop mixing the right things in the wrong way (Lev 19:19).
Stop mixing law with grace.

You know all I did was post Scripture and ask a question...if these people fell into the said category....they were not my own words, it was Scripture, and by posting Scripture you say "I mix Law and mercy."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Revelation 14:12, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, in conformity with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.


Yaaqob 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."

Yahchanan (John) 5:14, Afterward, Yahshua found him in the sacred precincts and said to him: Behold, you are healed. Sin no more, or a worse thing will come upon you.

Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

 

[Hoffco]

To Hizikyah, Thank you for defending the truth of Holiness "without which none will be saved" your post 354,5,6,9 are great, God is smiling upon you. Love the truth, Hoffco