Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham - HD

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Otzi the ice man (pre flood over 5000 years ago) had heart disease so no. Humans didn't live longer. They had short horrible lives and were shorter.

Humans get taller with good diet that they never had long ago.

How it works is that environmental conditions have
stunted life on this planet, including human life.

The environment before the flood was conducive to great
longevity and giant organisms (see "fossil record").

The flooded out remnant of Earth that we inhabit
is conducive to disease and shortened life spans.
 
No there is no desperate hope or suppressing going on.

Theists make a claim, and personally for me there isn't enough evidence for me to believe that claim. Its not a choice I'm making or something I'm surprising, I simply cannot believe it to be true because the evidence doesn't support it. That's all there is to it.

There's no such thing as enough evidence for you to believe, because you're not looking to believe, you're looking to satisfy your disbelief.
 
Otzi the ice man (pre flood over 5000 years ago) had heart disease so no. Humans didn't live longer. They had short horrible lives and were shorter.

Humans get taller with good diet that they never had long ago.

Oh, silly me, believing what God says in His Word (the Bible) over science. Because science has all the answers! Oh, yeah. Again historical (origins) science and operational science are two very different things and you're coming from a widely-different belief system than I am. Therefore, your understanding of historical (origins) science leads to a different understanding of operational science.
 
Again your suggesting before hand that I want to disbelieve.

Evidence is evidence wether you want to believe or not. And I don't think there is evidence to convince me of the claim. It's not a choice.
 
Again I ask, what makes you believe the bible is so accurate? What makes you think it is this gods word? Did this god say elsewhere to write such a bible and that it would be his personal ideas?

Check out reality sometime, its great!

Oh, silly me, believing what God says in His Word (the Bible) over science. Because science has all the answers! Oh, yeah. Again historical (origins) science and operational science are two very different things and you're coming from a widely-different belief system than I am. Therefore, your understanding of historical (origins) science leads to a different understanding of operational science.
 
Concerning animals that were aboard the ark (not a ship, it only had to float) we're only talking about animals who breathed through nostrils here. Aquatic life, insects, arachnids, bacterium, et al, were able to survive without direct care from Noah. That limited his responsibility to basic land animals.

Think about this carefully. It is documented that Noah had two of every "kind" of land dwelling animal on the ark (clean beasts and birds he took seven each). Regardless of how much variation has occurred since then, there are only so many basic "kinds" of animals.

Panthers and tigers are the same "kind" of animal. Zebras and donkeys are the same "kind" of animal. Water buffalo and musk oxen are the same "kind" of animal. After the flood, the basic "kinds" of animals began repopulating the world, and as continents and islands became isolated from each other and different ecosystems developed, variation/speciation began occurring.

Four or five thousand years worth of generations, combined with natural and artificial selection, has produced the vast diversity of organisms that we now observe. It is possible that the number of "species" that didn't survive the Flood was greater than what there is today. Don't tell the EPA. They'll fine God retroactively and probably attempt to shut Him down.

Four thousand years is nowhere near enough time for a generalized 'feline' to evolve into tigers, lions, leopards, cheetahs, lynxes, cougars, panthers, jaguars etc etc.

Then all the subspecies; asiatic cheetahs, amur leopards, snow leopards, sunda clouded leopards, Indochinese tigers, Bengal tigers, Sumatran tigers, Asiatic lions, West African lions, barbary lions,

Not feasible.

The other issue is, some animals are only native to certain parts of the world. For instance, Madagascar has it's own ecosystem. Fossilized remains and geographic study would suggest that Madagascar broke away from mainland Africa around 88 million years ago. And it's species are completely endemic. They are found nowhere else on earth.

did Noah pick up two of each of these species and leave them back on Madagascar when he was finished. Did he sail around the Earth dropping the relevant animals into their habitats?

If not, how does your 'original feline' end up having native 'descendents' in the United States?
 
As you pretty much said, their model would agree except where God (or catastrophe) steps in to change things.

I gave other examples of places in which they definitely differ. To put it another way, since it didn't stick the first time, Nye is a materialist. Ham is not. They disagree about the very substance of reality.

Hello st,

I'm sorry, be being brand new to this board, I picked up this thread where it was (on page 20 I think). And, yes, Nye is a pure naturalist; he won't consider anything supernatural, no matter how much evidence may be pointing in that direction.


Nye can't consider such possibilities because their existence would shatter his current world-view, so Nye rejects such possibilities.


This sort of triumphalism is an ugly shade on anybody. Please be serious.

That was a serious statement. As Ken Ham said, this is a clash between world views, and Bill Nye is locked into a world-view which refuses to consider the evidence (ample I and Ham would say) which points toward a Creator. So Bill Nye is not the 'reasonable man' he makes himself out to be (or he has redefined 'reasonable man' to mean 'naturalist man'). A truly reasonable man would consider the evidence and follow it wherever it may lead - even if it leads to a supernatural Creator.

As I watched the debate, I came to the conclusion that Bill Nye does not understand very much of the creation argument (and probably doesn't want to). When one goes into a debate, a good debater will have studied the opposing position carefully; Bill Nye did not come across to me as having exerted any significant amount of effort to understand the opposing position (like Ken Ham has done).
 
Four thousand years is nowhere near enough time for a generalized 'feline' to evolve into tigers, lions, leopards, cheetahs, lynxes, cougars, panthers, jaguars etc etc.

Then all the subspecies; asiatic cheetahs, amur leopards, snow leopards, sunda clouded leopards, Indochinese tigers, Bengal tigers, Sumatran tigers, Asiatic lions, West African lions, barbary lions,

Not feasible.

The other issue is, some animals are only native to certain parts of the world. For instance, Madagascar has it's own ecosystem. Fossilized remains and geographic study would suggest that Madagascar broke away from mainland Africa around 88 million years ago. And it's species are completely endemic. They are found nowhere else on earth.

did Noah pick up two of each of these species and leave them back on Madagascar when he was finished. Did he sail around the Earth dropping the relevant animals into their habitats?

If not, how does your 'original feline' end up having native 'descendents' in the United States?

I agree Jhana, and because Noah's flood was not universal neither did the various races of man "evolve" from Noah's three sons. It is totally ludicrous for universal flood advocates to claim that each and every variety in the human species somehow "evolved," (in the last 4,500 years) out of three people of the same race.
Years ago, at a Ken Ham creation seminar, I had the opportunity to ask him if he really believed that all of the races actually evolved out of one, out of Noah's sons. His reply was that of a politician. Without answering directly he merely stated, "that's no problem at all" and quickly went on to the next questioner.
 
Again I ask, what makes you believe the bible is so accurate? What makes you think it is this gods word? Did this god say elsewhere to write such a bible and that it would be his personal ideas?

Check out reality sometime, its great!


We know the Bible is accurate for many reasons, not the least of which is it's 100% accuracy regarding prophecy.

The nation of Israel is one of the main prophetic themes. God said he would bless those that blessed Israel, and curse those that curse them. You can trace the rise and fall of great nations and empires relative to their treatment of the Jews and Israel.
For almost 19 centuries scoffers said "see! the Bible is wrong! The Jews are gone from the land, dispersed over the whole world (also just as predicted). You would have thought that all unbelief would have been forever squashed when this happened:
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]On 14 May 1948, the day before the expiration of the British Mandate, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, declared "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel".

Or if we skip to the end of the Bible in Revelation, where 2000 yrs. ago John predicted that world would be a cashless society using a technology not even remotely dreamed of then.
We CURRENTLY NOW have the technology to implement this through VARIOUS means. Only political will stands in the way, restrained by the Holy Spirit.

There are hundreds more short and long term prophecies that we could talk about for many days. If you are an honest skeptic seeking TRUTH than you should be willing to explore them. If not, then your only purpose here is to attempt to agitate, harass, and cause purposeless dissent.
 
I agree Jhana, and because Noah's flood was not universal neither did the various races of man "evolve" from Noah's three sons. It is totally ludicrous for universal flood advocates to claim that each and every variety in the human species somehow "evolved," (in the last 4,500 years) out of three people of the same race.
Years ago, at a Ken Ham creation seminar, I had the opportunity to ask him if he really believed that all of the races actually evolved out of one, out of Noah's sons. His reply was that of a politician. Without answering directly he merely stated, "that's no problem at all" and quickly went on to the next questioner.

Well, if your not going to believe that then it stands to reason you also don't believe all the races "evolved" from a single man, ADAM. And if you don't believe that than what else do you get to pick and choose not to believe in the Bible? Jesus wasn't the only Son of God? He didn't raise Lazarus from the dead? Then Himself?....
 
Four thousand years is nowhere near enough time for a generalized 'feline' to evolve into tigers, lions, leopards, cheetahs, lynxes, cougars, panthers, jaguars etc etc.
...

Okay, let's think about this, you say that a few thousand years is not enough time for a single pair (or perhaps a couple of pairs, for I really don't know where the 'kind' distinction line would have been drawn) to generate all the various cat species. And your complaint is that there is no evidence that such a thing is possible. But did you not notice the dog 'orchard' in Ken's presentation which cited a scientific paper which proposes such a thing could have occurred (though I think their estimated time frame was more on the order of 10K years, if I remember correctly).

So, you say that 4 thousand years is not enough time for all the species of cat to come from one or two original pairs, but you accept that a few hundred million years is sufficient for a bunch of dead rocks to evolve into every living thing on earth! And on what evidence do you base this belief?

Please realize what the creation argument is saying. After the flood, original pairs of animals, picked by God to be rich with varied genetic material for that kind, disembarked and began to breed, and through different mixtures and separations of this original genetic material, the different species came about (so each species comes about through a loss of information). Realize that this model requires no creation of new genetic information; it is based upon different mixing and segregation of genetic information already existing. Yet the evolution position requires the creation of both information and life from raw elements and chemical compounds.

So a few thousand years is not enough time for already existing information to be segregated, but a few million years is enough time for totally new information to be created from scratch. And by what mechanism is this information created? See, here is the problem, the mechanism by which animals coming off the ark would separate into various species requires no leap of faith. It will happen naturally over time (and much fast if human animal breeders accelerate the process) and does not violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, but rather is an fitting example of it. But the claim that genetic information is organized by random process from raw elements over millions of years has no basis in science. It violates the 2nd law from the get-go. So which is the more reasonable position?
 
I agree Jhana, and because Noah's flood was not universal neither did the various races of man "evolve" from Noah's three sons. It is totally ludicrous for universal flood advocates to claim that each and every variety in the human species somehow "evolved," (in the last 4,500 years) out of three people of the same race.
Years ago, at a Ken Ham creation seminar, I had the opportunity to ask him if he really believed that all of the races actually evolved out of one, out of Noah's sons. His reply was that of a politician. Without answering directly he merely stated, "that's no problem at all" and quickly went on to the next questioner.

Exactly! That's something I've always questioned too.

Asian people have different 'genes' than say, Western Europeans. We have neanderthal inbreeding with homo-sapiens and lots of Europeans have genes that would indicate some neanderthal ancestry, we probably have homo erectus inbreeding with other human genus as-well, since homo-erectus were physically faster and stronger than homo sapiens, though apparently not as ingenious or intellectually developed. We have Asian people whose eyes are adapted to deal with polar weather conditions; intense sunshine and heat, and also bitter winds and snow, and we also have the African people whose skin is developed to contain more melanin than say, a white person.

The adaptation alone, for these traits, would have taken millions of years.

I actually would be quite inclined to take the view of continuity theory - that not all human species evolved from the same place and neither are all human races a product of a singular homo-sapiens in Africa.
 
Okay, let's think about this, you say that a few thousand years is not enough time for a single pair (or perhaps a couple of pairs, for I really don't know where the 'kind' distinction line would have been drawn) to generate all the various cat species. And your complaint is that there is no evidence that such a thing is possible. But did you not notice the dog 'orchard' in Ken's presentation which cited a scientific paper which proposes such a thing could have occurred (though I think their estimated time frame was more on the order of 10K years, if I remember correctly).

So, you say that 4 thousand years is not enough time for all the species of cat to come from one or two original pairs, but you accept that a few hundred million years is sufficient for a bunch of dead rocks to evolve into every living thing on earth! And on what evidence do you base this belief?

Please realize what the creation argument is saying. After the flood, original pairs of animals, picked by God to be rich with varied genetic material for that kind, disembarked and began to breed, and through different mixtures and separations of this original genetic material, the different species came about (so each species comes about through a loss of information). Realize that this model requires no creation of new genetic information; it is based upon different mixing and segregation of genetic information already existing. Yet the evolution position requires the creation of both information and life from raw elements and chemical compounds.

So a few thousand years is not enough time for already existing information to be segregated, but a few million years is enough time for totally new information to be created from scratch. And by what mechanism is this information created? See, here is the problem, the mechanism by which animals coming off the ark would separate into various species requires no leap of faith. It will happen naturally over time (and much fast if human animal breeders accelerate the process) and does not violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, but rather is an fitting example of it. But the claim that genetic information is organized by random process from raw elements over millions of years has no basis in science. It violates the 2nd law from the get-go. So which is the more reasonable position?

Right well I can certainly gather that view; that a few species of cat might evolve or develop all of them. But that still doesn't explain endemic species. Nor does it explain the fact that leopards have spots and tigers have stripes. If all cats were to come from a single genus or a single type of cat within the last few thousand years, then all cats would probably have stripes, or spots, or have manes, or not. Cats don't swim oceans. So we wouldn't have native cats in places separated from Israel by ocean on all sides.

I have no issue in believing that chemical compounds could have created life with specific criteria and in certain conditions. I also have no problem with the theory that perhaps an asteroid hit Earth with some form of life already living on it, or that some phenomenon unknown to us was the means for created life. Then again, I've also got no problem with the theory of intelligent design. That the Earth is in fact about 4 billion years old, and life began a few billion years ago. It's not unfeasible.

But your assumptions about the speed of evolution required to create all these new species from the relative few who would fit on the ark, just doesn't add up with the evidence at hand. I have no issue with the hebrew word 'yom' meaning 'age', nor with a God who instated the laws of physics and science for a reason, nor with that same God having created a spark of life and letting his instated laws and scientifically created model do the rest.

No problem with it at all.

I've no problem with Noah's 'world' being the viewable horizon, a cluster or middle Eastern countries, or simply Israel, just as I've no problem with historical China viewing themselves as the centre of the Earth, and beforehand, as the Earth itself. I've no issue with one covenant having been given to the Jews and nor with another being given to other geographics, cultures and the like. I've no issue with God being a transcendent creator who uses parabolic, simple stories and understanding to convey wider moral premises.

I literally, don't have a definitive view, and I'm open to whatever truth is given me.

The question really, that I ask is; does the story even have to be literal? Does it have to mean the Earth is only 6000 years old? Why can't it be parabolic or relevant to the times at hand? If it can't be, then why can't it be?

I see no reason it can't.

Evolution doesn't violate the laws of science. It just accepts the law of probability in the universe. Somewhere, somehow, life would have eventually formed. Whether by God's hand or not, we have no 'scientific' proof, but certainly, theory actually points that way.
 
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Exactly! That's something I've always questioned too.

Asian people have different 'genes' than say, Western Europeans. We have neanderthal inbreeding with homo-sapiens and lots of Europeans have genes that would indicate some neanderthal ancestry, we probably have homo erectus inbreeding with other human genus as-well, since homo-erectus were physically faster and stronger than homo sapiens, though apparently not as ingenious or intellectually developed. We have Asian people whose eyes are adapted to deal with polar weather conditions; intense sunshine and heat, and also bitter winds and snow, and we also have the African people whose skin is developed to contain more melanin than say, a white person.

The adaptation alone, for these traits, would have taken millions of years.

I actually would be quite inclined to take the view of continuity theory - that not all human species evolved from the same place and neither are all human races a product of a singular homo-sapiens in Africa.

Jhana, it is important to remember that Adam, an eighth day creation (Genesis 2), was not the first human. The man described in Genesis 1 is pre-Adamic man. These were the people who Cain feared "...shall slay me" (Gen. 4:14) when driven into their land. It was from among them that Cain found a wife ("and Cain knew his wife" [Gen. 4:17]). Ken Ham tries to get around this by reading into the text, the idea---that Cain married a sister. There is no evidence for this.

The bottom line is that one should not attempt to estimate the age of the universe based upon the idea that Adam was the first human. This will result in the building of additional errors upon the first.
 
Get a high end job at BP after you get all the degrees and you will understand. Plenty of evidence for the earth not being 6000 years old was in the debate.
Plenty of evidence based on unproven assumptions about the age of rocks.
 
It's because the evidence is overwhelming. Your relatives aren't dumb, YEC and creation in general are losing ground big time. Church attendance is also down. All due to knowledge and understanding.

Honestly with all of the evidence against creation I feel the only ones especially younger believers are brainwashed, if the bible didn't make the claim nobody would believe or come to the conclusion of those claims.
You ain't no Christian.
 
We know the Bible is accurate for many reasons, not the least of which is it's 100% accuracy regarding prophecy.

The nation of Israel is one of the main prophetic themes. God said he would bless those that blessed Israel, and curse those that curse them. You can trace the rise and fall of great nations and empires relative to their treatment of the Jews and Israel.
For almost 19 centuries scoffers said "see! the Bible is wrong! The Jews are gone from the land, dispersed over the whole world (also just as predicted). You would have thought that all unbelief would have been forever squashed when this happened:
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]On 14 May 1948, the day before the expiration of the British Mandate, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, declared "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel".

Or if we skip to the end of the Bible in Revelation, where 2000 yrs. ago John predicted that world would be a cashless society using a technology not even remotely dreamed of then.
We CURRENTLY NOW have the technology to implement this through VARIOUS means. Only political will stands in the way, restrained by the Holy Spirit.

There are hundreds more short and long term prophecies that we could talk about for many days. If you are an honest skeptic seeking TRUTH than you should be willing to explore them. If not, then your only purpose here is to attempt to agitate, harass, and cause purposeless dissent.

Me saying that in years to come there will be a faster way to cook food does not count as a prophecy of the microwave.

For me to recognise a prophecy as 100 prophecy then I would want exact events in exact places and at exact time. Some vague prediction full of analogies and symbolism is NOT prophecy.


If you can show me accurate prophecies that outline specific events, times and places then you'll have my full attention.
 
Right well I can certainly gather that view; that a few species of cat might evolve or develop all of them. But that still doesn't explain endemic species. Nor does it explain the fact that leopards have spots and tigers have stripes. If all cats were to come from a single genus or a single type of cat within the last few thousand years, then all cats would probably have stripes, or spots, or have manes, or not. Cats don't swim oceans. So we wouldn't have native cats in places separated from Israel by ocean on all sides.

I have no issue in believing that chemical compounds could have created life with specific criteria and in certain conditions. I also have no problem with the theory that perhaps an asteroid hit Earth with some form of life already living on it, or that some phenomenon unknown to us was the means for created life. Then again, I've also got no problem with the theory of intelligent design. That the Earth is in fact about 4 billion years old, and life began a few billion years ago. It's not unfeasible.

But your assumptions about the speed of evolution required to create all these new species from the relative few who would fit on the ark, just doesn't add up with the evidence at hand. I have no issue with the hebrew word 'yom' meaning 'age', nor with a God who instated the laws of physics and science for a reason, nor with that same God having created a spark of life and letting his instated laws and scientifically created model do the rest.

No problem with it at all.

I've no problem with Noah's 'world' being the viewable horizon, a cluster or middle Eastern countries, or simply Israel, just as I've no problem with historical China viewing themselves as the centre of the Earth, and beforehand, as the Earth itself. I've no issue with one covenant having been given to the Jews and nor with another being given to other geographics, cultures and the like. I've no issue with God being a transcendent creator who uses parabolic, simple stories and understanding to convey wider moral premises.

I literally, don't have a definitive view, and I'm open to whatever truth is given me.

The question really, that I ask is; does the story even have to be literal? Does it have to mean the Earth is only 6000 years old? Why can't it be parabolic or relevant to the times at hand? If it can't be, then why can't it be?

I see no reason it can't.

Evolution doesn't violate the laws of science. It just accepts the law of probability in the universe. Somewhere, somehow, life would have eventually formed. Whether by God's hand or not, we have no 'scientific' proof, but certainly, theory actually points that way.

Jhana, it is incorrect to say that "evolution doesn't violate the laws of science." Evolutionists do violate the laws of science. They do this by implying that time, space, matter and energy (that of which the universe consists) somehow---self originated out of nothing! This contradicts the laws of science (i.e., physics). Evolutionists violate the laws of science when they teach, directly or otherwise, that dead inanimate matter somehow "evolved" into the first form of life. These two teachings violate the most basic laws of science. The bottom line is that the origin of time, space, matter, energy, and the origin of the first form of life---cannot be scientifically explained. The only explanation for the origin of these is Yahweh, the self existing supernatural being who created these---out of nothing.
 
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Jhana, it is incorrect to say that "evolution doesn't violate the laws of science." Evolutionists do violate the laws of science. They do this by implying that time, space, matter and energy (that of which the universe consists) somehow---self originated out of nothing! This contradicts the laws of science (i.e., physics). Evolutionists violate the laws of science when they teach, directly or otherwise, that dead inanimate matter somehow "evolved" into the first form of life. These two teachings violate the most basic laws of science. The bottom line is that the origin of time, space, matter, energy, and the origin of the first form of life---cannot be scientifically explained. The only explanation for the origin of these is Yahweh, the self existing supernatural being who created these---out of nothing.

Just because science doesn't explain something, you can't then immediately assume it has to be god.

God of gaps argument.