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Romans 11
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (according as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 if by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Romans 11
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (according as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 if by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
posthuman, your interpretation of Romans, in addition to contradicting Hebrews and James, etc. is based upon an erroneous definition of "Jew" and "Gentiles." Read Romans 9:24-33 where Paul quotes from Hosea and Isaiah. These verses describe events in the history of ten tribed Israel only. They do not identify any non-Israelite people.
Your interpretation of Romans 11 is similar, you merely assume that Paul, in these verses is comparing Israelites to non-Israelites. He is not. It is a comparison of non-Jew Disapora Israelites to the Judah portion. There is not one iota of evidence in Romans that would identify the Christian Gentiles to whom Paul was writing as the Canaanites, Edomites, Eskimos, Pacific Islanders and/or the non-Israelites you claim they were. You have no evidence for this, none whatsoever, you just blindly assume that because they were not Jews that they could not be Israelites. On more than one occasion I've asked CC posters to identify the ethnicity of the Christian Gentiles they claim were non-Israelites. So, I will ask you. Using contextual evidence, name the ancestry of the Christian Gentiles you claim were non-Israelites. And be specific, show me contextual evidence, chapter and verse, where these Christians are described as Canaanites, Edomites, Eskimos, African Pygmies, or whatever you think they were. Assuming you respond I'll read it tomorrow, it's late and I'm going to bed.
Your interpretation of Romans 11 is similar, you merely assume that Paul, in these verses is comparing Israelites to non-Israelites. He is not. It is a comparison of non-Jew Disapora Israelites to the Judah portion. There is not one iota of evidence in Romans that would identify the Christian Gentiles to whom Paul was writing as the Canaanites, Edomites, Eskimos, Pacific Islanders and/or the non-Israelites you claim they were. You have no evidence for this, none whatsoever, you just blindly assume that because they were not Jews that they could not be Israelites. On more than one occasion I've asked CC posters to identify the ethnicity of the Christian Gentiles they claim were non-Israelites. So, I will ask you. Using contextual evidence, name the ancestry of the Christian Gentiles you claim were non-Israelites. And be specific, show me contextual evidence, chapter and verse, where these Christians are described as Canaanites, Edomites, Eskimos, African Pygmies, or whatever you think they were. Assuming you respond I'll read it tomorrow, it's late and I'm going to bed.
J
*sigh* I suppose I need to get used to threads getting hi-jacked.
Historicist, I am not making a Theological argument, I am simply pointing at math in the Bible that just happens to be the date when Israel became a nation again (Which is a miracle).
I should have posted the many other websites that do not relate to Zionism, and or are not endorsed by a Jewish Author. If anyone actually cares to look (but I am getting the feeling that most don't) then you can easily google "Ezekiel" "Israel" "Nation" "Prophecy" etc.
Actually, I have a non-Jewish (since it seems to offend so many) website that explains the math about this prophecy.
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/pdf/JeffBIBLE-EzekVision2.pdf
again, the simple point of this thread was to magnify God for his incredible foresight and prophetic fulfillment in His Word. I had no idea that this could cause such trouble.
However, this has certainly been a learning experience for me about people, and for that, I am grateful.
Historicist, I am not making a Theological argument, I am simply pointing at math in the Bible that just happens to be the date when Israel became a nation again (Which is a miracle).
I should have posted the many other websites that do not relate to Zionism, and or are not endorsed by a Jewish Author. If anyone actually cares to look (but I am getting the feeling that most don't) then you can easily google "Ezekiel" "Israel" "Nation" "Prophecy" etc.
Actually, I have a non-Jewish (since it seems to offend so many) website that explains the math about this prophecy.
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/pdf/JeffBIBLE-EzekVision2.pdf
again, the simple point of this thread was to magnify God for his incredible foresight and prophetic fulfillment in His Word. I had no idea that this could cause such trouble.
However, this has certainly been a learning experience for me about people, and for that, I am grateful.
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E
Dude I am going to be blunt here. It is obvious you are not listening to a word people say. You are churched. and have a closed mind. NO ONE here is exulting a non believing Jew as Gods servant people. You continue to say this, yet NO ONE HERE is claiming this. If you would open your eyes you would see this.
Trying listening to what we say, And not listen to us with a false idea of what you THINK we believe. Because in doing so you are destroying your credibility.
Trying listening to what we say, And not listen to us with a false idea of what you THINK we believe. Because in doing so you are destroying your credibility.
For someone who ignores the scriptures I explain (in context) to accuse me of ignoring is the epitome of audacity. All you did with Romans 9:11 is read into it your dogmatic definition of Jews and Gentiles. Not once have you even attempted to defend the idea (erroneous) that all Israelites were Jews (i.e., of Judah) and that the NT Christian Gentiles therefore, could not be Israelites. It's obvious that you have been programed to not recognize the distinction between the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Neither are you aware of the fact that when Jesus walked in Palestine most Israelites were in dispersion, and had been for over 600 years. Why do you think the apostle James, writing about AD 45 addressed his epistle to "...the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" (James 1:1)? This, obviously, was before the sacking of Jerusalem by the Romans in AD 70 yet you seem not to recognize this fact. Neither are you willing to face the fact that "the twelve tribes," James was writing to were a people who had accepted Jesus and the New Covenant. Neither will you acknowledge the fact that Hebrews, an epistle to Hebrew-Israelites does not describe a non-Christian people. I've asked you, repeatedly, to reconcile your idea of a non-Christian Israel with the Christian Israel so clearly identified in Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, Acts and others. This you have not done. All you do is dogmatically refer to your interpretation of Romans 11 (as though it contradicts Hebrews and James, etc.). The Bible does not contradict itself. Paul, in Romans 11, is not contradicting the Christian Israel identified by the apostle James and the writer of Hebrews. Your interpretation of Romans does contradict Hebrews and James and Acts, the very writings which tell us that "...thousands of Jews" (Acts 21:20) and thousands more of non-Jew Israelites comprised the first century church. But for some reason you cling to an idea promoted for the benefit of "...them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 2:9; 3:9). Having been fed the "Israel rejected Jesus" Kool Aid dispensed by the religious establishment all you can see is the idea that Israel rejected Jesus, the idea that Israel therefore is a non-Christian people. Despite scriptural and historical evidence to the contrary you attempt to identify Israel based upon a mantra, one repeated as "Israel rejected Jesus." Your refusal to accept that which debunks this mantra is symptom of cognitive dissonance. This occurs when a person is unable to comprehend and/or accept other than what they have been programed to believe. This explains your refusal to accept the Christian Israel so clearly described in Hebrews, James, Acts, 1 Peter and scores of other references.
Calling attention to the adjusting of statistics in order to fit a preconceived notion is not necessarily hijacking. What is hijacking is a nation of neo-Pharisees claiming a name ("Israel") that does not fit the Christian Israel so clearly described in Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, Acts and others. Do your homework, Google on The Invention of the Jewish People by Israeli professor Shlomo Sand, and The Thirteenth Tribe by Jewish historian Arthur Koestler, and Genome Evolution of Jewish Population Johns Hopkins, the 2012 Jewish DNA study. These, and a multitude of other authoritative sources document the non-Israelitish Khazar ancestry of most Israelis, of most contemporary "Jews." These people are not a good representation of the Judah portion of Israel, much less all twelve tribes. Biblically speaking there is far more evidence for 1776, than 1948, as applicable to prophecy. There is another side to this story, but most, unfortunately, have not been exposed to it.
E
What dogmatic view.?
Isreal (jacob) is ALL who come from the 12 sons of Jacob. Gentile, is all others. this is the biblical defenition of national people. But you still think a gentile is a nation so go figure.
Why would I defend it, or even speak on it.
As far as the promises go. The national children are the heirs. As far as eternal life goes. We are all Israel (spiritual) through abrahams son Christ. But you do not want to believe we understand such a thing do you??
Oh? There you go with your assumptions again.
Isreal (national) containes all isrealites.
The house of Israel was the northern kingdom. Consisting of ten tribes, defeated and scattered by the Syrians.
The house of Judah comes from the namesake of the tribe of Judah, was the lower kingdom. And consisted of Judah and Benjamin and the particular levites who lived in their land.
so you have any other ideas of what you think we do not believe??
Dude, You obviously have not read a thing we say. If you get of your spoonfeeding of what you were trained everyone believes, you would not make such grave errors.
Israel (norhtern) was dispersed by the syrians, And never were returned to their land.
Judah, was dispersed by the babylonians, but were allowed to return as slaves. because they were still in sin. And many jews did not even return, but remained dispersed.
70 ad was the fulfilment of daniel 9.
however. in the time of Christ, there were people of ALL tribes living in the land of Judah.
But what does this matter. what does this have to do with romans 11?? not a hill of beans..
WHY WOULD IT MATTER. WHO ARE THE BLINDED ISREAL OF ROMANS 11?? ARE THEY SAVED JEWS?? Romans 11 has nothing to do with those other passages. Romans 11 speaks of all Isreal. the blind (unsaved) and the seeing (saved) as compaired to the gentiles (non isreal) and how one day ALL ISREAL (BLIND AND SEEING will be saved)
I have never seen anyone twist scripture as you have!!
THE JEWS YOU SPEAK OF ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE BEEN BLINDED IN ROMANS !! THE SAME PEOPLE WHO ARE CALLED BY PAUL THE ENEMY CONCERNING THE GOSPEL.
who else would they be???
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i think it's Paul's interpretation of Romans you have a problem with, not mine, because all i did was post the chapter. i haven't said at all how i read it.
it looked to me that there was some dissension going on concerning you "ignoring" the passage, so i thought it good to put it here so it couldn't be ignored.
so take it up with Paul. i think he wrote fairly clearly.
it looked to me that there was some dissension going on concerning you "ignoring" the passage, so i thought it good to put it here so it couldn't be ignored.
so take it up with Paul. i think he wrote fairly clearly.