Is there such a thing as an atheist?

[nl]

I see our existence differently than just a great cosmic accident... I would not consider it an accident that stars and planets are part of the natural order as well. Given the formation of enough stars some of them must possess planets of the appropriate sort to sustain life. I would consider it a great cosmic accident if this did not happen.

If our existence is different than an accident and stars and planets are not an accident as you state, then I agree. I thank God for his plan and design.

The dogmas of science have included both the Second Law of Thermodynamics and evolution. The first says that order decreases over time while the second says that order increases over time. Many eminent scientists believe in both and so I'm looking for the reconciling logic. From another point of view, it seems that these general dogmas of science have been in contradiction with each other.

 

[homwardbound]

Yeah I could never accept a personal testimony as evidence. While I don't doubt your sincerity, there are also people out there who are convinced they have been abducted by aliens, convinced they have seen ghosts and convinced they saw Elvis at their local store.

And another question always crosses my mind when someone brings this up... Why would god come and perform minor miracles for you in your already relatively comfortable life while at the same time allowing many children to die of starvation and AIDS.

Truth as a man thinketh, believeth so is he

 

[Starcrash]

Good to see you back. You have been absent? It's not my imagination?

I have been absent. I doubt any Christians missed me but it's nice to know that somebody noticed.

 

[Starcrash]

Truth as a man thinketh, believeth so is he

Why would you word it this way? It sounds like you're trying to quote scripture, though a Google search turned up no biblical source. It's just confusing.

 

[Cycel]

There is a graphic example of the difference in our thinking and beliefs. I consider it as PROOF that God does exist.

I think what you are saying is that you see our existence as firm proof God exists. I disagree. Our existence is not evidence of anything. Scientologists claim to see our existence as meaning something completely different from what either of us claims. Our presence does not substantiate your beliefs any more than it proves Tom Cruise's.

If everything is an "accident"....

If you are responding to what I said, then you misunderstood. I said star and planet formation is completely natural. If by accident you mean star and planet formation is not likely to happen on its own, then I completely disagree. There are billions of stars in our galaxy and I believe every one of them formed without the intervention of an intelligent designer. Science does not claim that the stars happened by accident. It says they arose by natural laws that we can define, model, measure and investigate.

If everything is an "accident" then since there are millions of stars why haven't we found life on other planets?

Phil, you know as well as I (though maybe you are unaware?) that astrobiologists have a number of candidate moons and one candidate planet where life might exist in the solar system. We cannot rule out the possibility before the research has been conducted. Secondly, we cannot rule out the possibility of life outside the solar system and the fact that you apparently do, I find quite extraordinary.

... since there are millions of stars why haven't we found life on other planets?

You do realize this statement is untenable? We can't yet examine planets for life beyond the solar system, though that may change in about four years time. Though it may be that when you speak of life you only mean life as technically advanced as ourselves? When I speak of life, I mean any kind of life – bacterial included.

Simply because the design didn't include that.

God’s plan, you say, didn’t include life elsewhere in the universe? Do you have a definitive quote from scripture to back that up? Perhaps something to the effect: “Life on other worlds does not exist.” The Bible hardly even seems to reference the planets in our own neighbourhood, let alone denying the existence of life on planets around other stars.

 

[nl]

The power of magnetism may operate only over a short distance but it is powerful and it is there. The momentum generated by magnetic power can be projected over a larger distance.

In the low-budget scientific experiment shown below, the magnetic power of a half-inch magnet from above beats the gravitational power of earth below that is approximately 7927 miles in diameter.


Evidence is that there have been always been plenty of electro-magnetic forces in the highly ionized universe. These forces can be powerful. An example from the negative-charge side is lightning.

Magnetic field reversals (MFR's) can happen and when they do, objects can be expelled away from each other rather than attracted. Earth scientists posit that geomagnetic reversals have happened multiple times in the history of the earth with the last reversal occurring during the last ice age. Floating matter and ions in space are much more transient than materials in the center of the earth and magnetic field reversals could easily happen there.

Big bang cosmology depends heavily on the gravitational power of black holes which are BELIEVED by scientists to exist.

 

[phil112]

...............................Phil, you know as well as I (though maybe you are unaware?) that astrobiologists have a number of candidate moons and one candidate planet where life might exist in the solar system. We cannot rule out the possibility before the research has been conducted...................

Yes there are other planets that might be conducive to carbon based life. For petes sake, out of millions of planets the thought is still just unverifiable speculation. What I am saying is, even given that, the fact that we have been unable to find such life of any kind is proof it doesn't exist. It will remain a proof unless there is life discovered. I am saying it ain't gonna happen. Save this post for later and I will eat my words in public if you prove me wrong. You aren't going to. We will both know eventually, tho I doubt either of us will obtain that knowledge in this lifetime.

 

[dcontroversal]

I have been absent. I doubt any Christians missed me but it's nice to know that somebody noticed.

I noticed you was gone and my (ten) now nine cats are still waiting for their scoped weapons to take my dog out hahah

 

[JesusLives]

Yeah I could never accept a personal testimony as evidence. While I don't doubt your sincerity, there are also people out there who are convinced they have been abducted by aliens, convinced they have seen ghosts and convinced they saw Elvis at their local store.

And another question always crosses my mind when someone brings this up... Why would god come and perform minor miracles for you in your already relatively comfortable life while at the same time allowing many children to die of starvation and AIDS.

I found my mother dead from a heart attack when I was 8 years old, my father died from lung cancer when I was 12, a pretty rough start for a child. Then I lived in 5 different households, two were relatives, 3 were not. Some believed in a God, some did not, and still even though I have plenty of good reasons to hate God, why don't I?

God hates to see women raped, (children abused, which I have experienced), He hates to see children starve, and see people die of AIDS or anything else. It was not God's original plan for man - man was placed on a perfect world. A fallen angel is to blame for the beginnings of sin because of his pride, and he deceived Eve with a lie. Sin entered the world and people started dying because the wages of sin is death. God loved us enough to send His own Son to pay the penalty for us. We just have to believe and receive. I have every reason to hate God if I were so inclined to do so, but Jesus gave up heaven and came and died in my place so I could have eternal life and be reconciled to God. The least I can do is love Him back and say yes to His offer of freedom from sin and death.

I just want to share that offer with everyone else who has not made that choice.

 

[JesusLives]

I know you were answering phil112 but -

To me there is suggested other life besides earth in Bible Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

Adam was considered a son of God so who says there could not have been other life out there? The first chapter of Job sounds like a meeting of representatives of other worlds. With Satan representing this earth since Adam fell into sin.

 

[Cycel]

The power of magnetism may operate only over a short distance but it is powerful and it is there. The momentum generated by magnetic power can be projected over a larger distance.

In the low-budget scientific experiment shown below, the magnetic power of a half-inch magnet from above beats the gravitational power of earth below that is approximately 7927 miles in diameter.

I gather the magnet in question is in contact with the hammer? You could also suspend the hammer with a string. Does this mean the string has defeated earth's gravity? NL, this has no bearing on anything we discussed earlier.

Big bang cosmology depends heavily on the gravitational power of black holes which are BELIEVED by scientists to exist.

I am not in a position to deny the quality of the evidence that has lead astrophysicists and others to posit the existence of black holes. Are you?

 

[danalee]

I gather the magnet in question is in contact with the hammer? You could also suspend the hammer with a string. Does this mean the string has defeated earth's gravity? NL, this has no bearing on anything we discussed earlier.


I am not in a position to deny the quality of the evidence that has lead astrophysicists and others to posit the existence of black holes. Are you?

Actually now there are no black holes. There are grey holes. Why did you miss this memo? Maybe you should adjust the helmet a bit.

 

[danalee]

Actually now there are no black holes. There are grey holes. Why did you miss this memo? Maybe you should adjust the helmet a bit.

And the web is weaving. Reality. God can and will change anything on a dime. It's not something that is easily explained, trust me, I know, all roads lead to either a dead end, or your acknowledgement that a greater power is in play....

 

[Cycel]

I know you were answering phil112 but -

Please feel free to comment on anything I post.

To me there is suggested other life besides earth in Bible Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

Adam was considered a son of God so who says there could not have been other life out there? The first chapter of Job sounds like a meeting of representatives of other worlds. With Satan representing this earth since Adam fell into sin.

I do not wish to cause offense, but I do see references to Adam and to Job as mythical rather than historic. I think the parts you are referencing here fall into the former category.

I don't think there are any biblical references to the planets in our solar system at all, let alone mention of extra-solar planets. I don't know that there is any evidence that the biblical writers even knew of their existence, though frankly I think they must have known something. I heard somewhere that the planets might not be named in Old Testament scripture because of the association they had with foreign gods and so biblical writers were reluctant to name them. I don't know if there is any truth in this claim.

 

[danalee]

Please feel free to comment on anything I post.


I do not wish to cause offense, but I do see references to Adam and to Job as mythical rather than historic. I think the parts you are referencing here fall into the former category.

I don't think there are any biblical references to the planets in our solar system at all, let alone mention of extra-solar planets. I don't know that there is any evidence that the biblical writers even knew of their existence, though frankly I think they must have known something. I heard somewhere that the planets might not be named in Old Testament scripture because of the association they had with foreign gods and so biblical writers were reluctant to name them. I don't know if there is any truth in this claim.

do you even realize the love that is encompassing you? serious now...

 

[JesusLives]

Originally Posted by JesusLives To me there is suggested other life besides earth in Bible Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

Adam was considered a son of God so who says there could not have been other life out there? The first chapter of Job sounds like a meeting of representatives of other worlds. With Satan representing this earth since Adam fell into sin.

Please feel free to comment on anything I post.
I do not wish to cause offense, but I do see references to Adam and to Job as mythical rather than historic. I think the parts you are referencing here fall into the former category.

I don't think there are any biblical references to the planets in our solar system at all, let alone mention of extra-solar planets. I don't know that there is any evidence that the biblical writers even knew of their existence, though frankly I think they must have known something. I heard somewhere that the planets might not be named in Old Testament scripture because of the association they had with foreign gods and so biblical writers were reluctant to name them. I don't know if there is any truth in this claim.

I was just thinking since it said sons of God came to present themselves indicated that they weren't already in heaven but another undisclosed location and since Adam was on earth my assumption was other sons of God other worlds. That was my thought pattern anyway.

 

[IntoTheVoid]

I found my mother dead from a heart attack when I was 8 years old, my father died from lung cancer when I was 12, a pretty rough start for a child. Then I lived in 5 different households, two were relatives, 3 were not. Some believed in a God, some did not, and still even though I have plenty of good reasons to hate God, why don't I?

God hates to see women raped, (children abused, which I have experienced), He hates to see children starve, and see people die of AIDS or anything else. It was not God's original plan for man - man was placed on a perfect world. A fallen angel is to blame for the beginnings of sin because of his pride, and he deceived Eve with a lie. Sin entered the world and people started dying because the wages of sin is death. God loved us enough to send His own Son to pay the penalty for us. We just have to believe and receive. I have every reason to hate God if I were so inclined to do so, but Jesus gave up heaven and came and died in my place so I could have eternal life and be reconciled to God. The least I can do is love Him back and say yes to His offer of freedom from sin and death.

I just want to share that offer with everyone else who has not made that choice.

So hang on now. Who is to blame! Man? Or a fallen angel? You said a fallen angel is at fault for deceiving Eve... And then you say god sent Jesus to pay our penalty? How is it our penalty if it was the fault of a fallen angel?

You make no sense whatsoever

 

[Cycel]

Yes there are other planets that might be conducive to carbon based life.

Well, thank you. My first tiny victory.

For petes sake, out of millions of planets the thought [that some might harbor life] is still just unverifiable speculation.

It is speculation, yes, but credible, in the view of many.

In the case of Mars there is undeniable evidence now that water did exist on the planet for perhaps millions of years. So Mars itself once had conditions more conducive to life, though this is not evidence that life once existed on Mars. Methane has been detected on Mars and though it has been suggested that subterranean organisms might be producing it, this not yet proven.

For those of us who don't accept the existence of God, the only reasonable explanation for life's presence on Earth is that it arose by natural means. How, doesn't matter at the moment. Someone will eventually find an answer and I am content to wait. The very presence of life here, however, suggests that it can arise wherever the proper conditions are met. This is why exploring Mars for signs of past life, or even present life, is so exciting. If evidence for it is eventually found on the red planet then it would seem almost certain that life can arise easily.

What I am saying is, even given that, the fact that we have been unable to find such life of any kind is proof it doesn't exist. It will remain a proof unless there is life discovered.

That is not logical. Absence of evidence is not evidence of proof. We have never photographed a ring shaped asteroid either, but is that evidence one doesn't exist?

The truth is on Earth life is ubiquitous. You have no means of demonstrating that life is not ubiquitous elsewhere. One estimate puts the number of planets in our galaxy that have earth-like orbits at 40 billion. That figure appeared in New Scientist a couple of months ago. As someone who is religious I'd be asking myself what purpose all those planets, and the billions of galaxies we now know exist, have; why would God leave all that real-estate empty? Does that really make any sense?

I also have to wonder why so many conservative Christians are so opposed, in general, to life existing elsewhere? I wonder if the problem might not be unhappiness over the loss of centrality in God's creation? If God has created other beings, then mankind is not first in Creation.

If tomorrow beings from another world made contact with us, how would you feel? I think I would be terrified. We'd be at their mercy, but it wouldn't change the way I saw the universe. I wonder if you would suddenly have to reevaluate what you believed?

I am saying it ain't gonna happen. Save this post for later and I will eat my words in public if you prove me wrong. You aren't going to. We will both know eventually, tho I doubt either of us will obtain that knowledge in this lifetime.

Have you heard of the James Webb telescope? It is planned for launch next year. If successfully deployed in deep space, it may be capable of detecting earth-sized planets around nearby stars. It is about five times the size of the Hubble. It is an exciting time in astronomy.

 

[Cycel]

do you even realize the love that is encompassing you? serious now...

No, I am sorry. I have never sensed the presence of God.

 

[TheKringledOne]

The dogmas of science have included both the Second Law of Thermodynamics and evolution. The first says that order decreases over time while the second says that order increases over time. Many eminent scientists believe in both and so I'm looking for the reconciling logic. From another point of view, it seems that these general dogmas of science have been in contradiction with each other.

This is a common misunderstanding. The issue here is one of scope. No complex reconciling is needed as long as you understand what the 2nd law of thermodynamics is saying.

The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of a closed system has a tendency to increase over time. Entropy has a specific physical definition, but for most purposes it can be be said to mean "disorder". It is important to pay attention to how it is referring to a closed system; this is a system where no new energy or matter is coming in or out. Nothing in the 2nd law implies that one part of this closed system can't become more ordered. One part can become more ordered as long as another part of the system is getting more disordered. Life on earth has become a lot more complex as time has gone on, but the earth is not a closed system. It has a constant supply of new energy coming from the sun.