Who has the moral authority to lecture Russia?

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Mar 21, 2011
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#1
Two illegal wars, and the bringing back of torture. Not to mention collapsing the world economy from greed.

This leaves the USA and it's ally countries with no moral authority to be outraged at Russia.

A legacy of the Republican voters who voted for Bush?

Do we hold many people here, who voted Republican responsible or this lack of moral authority?

There are many dominos in world history. This may come as a shock to people who have no understanding of world politics.

Would it be better for Christians to abstain from politics, like they did before the 'Moral Majority' was invented as a con-job to manipulate American Christians? You know the good old days that Conservatives are supposed to cherish?

Or I don't know. So many here express their admiration for Putin and admire his masculine leadership (aka Brutal Communist Dictator).

Was this the secret plan of American conservatives all along? Since they love Putin so much and hate Obama?
 
B

biscuit

Guest
#2
Christians are not supposed to engage in politics because it is a secular matter. Nevertheless, many Christians worship politics more than they do Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:15-16

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


 
Dec 18, 2013
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#3
Anyone in the world I think has some right to lecture Russia on their brazen invasion of Crimea. It was extremely under-handed of Putin to invade Crimea in the manner which he did. I am no big fan of war, but at the least with both Afghanistan and Iraq, America both got UN agreement as well as gave Saddam Hussein and the Taliban/Al-Qaida Alliance fair warning and even an ultimatum to avoid the wars.

Putin on the other hand here has invaded Crimea without any notice whatsoever, and seeing as he took advantage of Ukraine while they are at their most vulnerable that makes his move much more cold-hearted. This is even worst that it comes after the olympics when USA and Russia were just starting to work together. Very suspicious Putin should invade after the olympics as he attacked Georgia during the olympics in 2008 This is a very tense situation unfolding in Ukraine after months of tension. Can't really say what Putin is playing at here, but it is a pretty under-handed move either way. I hope the Ukrainians will be able to stay safe, restore order, and be able to rebuild in peace.
 
B

biscuit

Guest
#4
Christians are not supposed to engage in politics because it is a secular matter. Nevertheless, many Christians worship politics more than they do Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:15-16

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.



Oops!! Wrong thread ... please ignore & disregard.
 
B

biscuit

Guest
#5
Anyone in the world I think has some right to lecture Russia on their brazen invasion of Crimea. It was extremely under-handed of Putin to invade Crimea in the manner which he did. I am no big fan of war, but at the least with both Afghanistan and Iraq, America both got UN agreement as well as gave Saddam Hussein and the Taliban/Al-Qaida Alliance fair warning and even an ultimatum to avoid the wars.

Putin on the other hand here has invaded Crimea without any notice whatsoever, and seeing as he took advantage of Ukraine while they are at their most vulnerable that makes his move much more cold-hearted. This is even worst that it comes after the olympics when USA and Russia were just starting to work together. Very suspicious Putin should invade after the olympics as he attacked Georgia during the olympics in 2008 This is a very tense situation unfolding in Ukraine after months of tension. Can't really say what Putin is playing at here, but it is a pretty under-handed move either way. I hope the Ukrainians will be able to stay safe, restore order, and be able to rebuild in peace.
And according to the bible, Russia and the Arab League will attempt to invade Israel in the first of three waves during the battle of Armageddon. Without doubt Russia's aggression is becoming a concern to many nations.
 
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Dec 18, 2013
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#6
And according to the bible, Russia and the Arab League will attempt to invade Israel in the first of three waves during the battle of Armaggedon. Without doubt Russia's aggression is becoming a concern to many nations.
Perhaps but there is still time between then and now and there are other things that must happen before that battle. Seeing as Putin's Crimean takeover was quite unexpected perhaps we should also consider that many kingdoms might rise and fall in the North and the South before that great battle.

Either way though the best we can hope for is that the people involved will keep their cool and try to be good and bring back order and stability to Ukraine and even hopefully the Russians also will calm down. Things aren't looking good right now, but don't lose heart. There are still good Russian people too just like there are good Ukrainians. We must hope that peace can still be found through Jesus for these peoples in their toil.
 
Mar 21, 2011
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#7
Anyone in the world I think has some right to lecture Russia on their brazen invasion of Crimea.
Nah, rogue states like the USA who invaded Iraq have zero respect or right.

In fact the Russian invasion seems a lot more reasonable and welcomed that the Iraq invasion and bombing of Christian children in Iraq.

I miss the days prior to the Bush years.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#8
russia has destroyed more human lives than any other single nation in history...how can anyone -not- have the moral authority to condemn that monstrosity?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
14,115
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#9
Two illegal wars, and the bringing back of torture. Not to mention collapsing the world economy from greed.

This leaves the USA and it's ally countries with no moral authority to be outraged at Russia.

A legacy of the Republican voters who voted for Bush?

Do we hold many people here, who voted Republican responsible or this lack of moral authority?

There are many dominos in world history. This may come as a shock to people who have no understanding of world politics.

Would it be better for Christians to abstain from politics, like they did before the 'Moral Majority' was invented as a con-job to manipulate American Christians? You know the good old days that Conservatives are supposed to cherish?

Or I don't know. So many here express their admiration for Putin and admire his masculine leadership (aka Brutal Communist Dictator).

Was this the secret plan of American conservatives all along? Since they love Putin so much and hate Obama?

I see his hatred of Christian Americans couldn't take much of a vacation.













What is a "legal" war?

You are either ignorant of, or purposefully refuse to acknowledge that most democrats voted for those wars.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#10
Two illegal wars, and the bringing back of torture. Not to mention collapsing the world economy from greed.

This leaves the USA and it's ally countries with no moral authority to be outraged at Russia.

A legacy of the Republican voters who voted for Bush?

Do we hold many people here, who voted Republican responsible or this lack of moral authority?

There are many dominos in world history. This may come as a shock to people who have no understanding of world politics.

Would it be better for Christians to abstain from politics, like they did before the 'Moral Majority' was invented as a con-job to manipulate American Christians? You know the good old days that Conservatives are supposed to cherish?

Or I don't know. So many here express their admiration for Putin and admire his masculine leadership (aka Brutal Communist Dictator).

Was this the secret plan of American conservatives all along? Since they love Putin so much and hate Obama?


Things irritable Australians say...
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
14,115
9,537
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#11
Here is a very courageous Sarah Palin, in 2008, predicting exactly what an incredibly weak, feckless, obama presidency would yield!

David, How about showing a little love to this Christian woman!

[video=youtube;NPfWkfb5ppE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPfWkfb5ppE[/video]
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#12
Nah, rogue states like the USA who invaded Iraq have zero respect or right.

In fact the Russian invasion seems a lot more reasonable and welcomed that the Iraq invasion and bombing of Christian children in Iraq.

I miss the days prior to the Bush years.
1. Perhaps you are correct that the USA has zero respect or right. Though I would urge you to see some reason here and understand that in this situation particularly America and the other NATO allies are pretty much the only armies aside from China capable of either fighting Russia or persuading them to end their occupation. It seems like shamefully the USA and Europe aren't going to do anything to stop Putin. I'll give Putin a little props here, he did occupy Crimea without having to fire any shots, so I am glad there is no violence on the part of Russia yet. However, this is a very worrisome development as he has tried things like this before and this time the West will appease him. We must not forget history and what happened last time a savvy dictator began annexing lands and the West appeased him.

2. This is where I would probably disagree with you. As pointed out the USA gained UN approval and also gave Saddam an ultimatum with ample amounts of time for him to comply or not comply (obviously he did not comply.) Russia on the other hand waltzed right into Crimea, even lied for 1 day saying that they did not invade in order that they might gain a significant foothold. Not only that but they did this with no warning and did this after the olympics which symbolically shows their utter disregard for the international community. Also keep in mind America did not plan nor invade Iraq alone. A key players in the Iraq planning was the British Crown (The British Crown is also sovereign over your land Australia and the other Commonwealth realms.) When we fought Iraq we went in with a diverse coalition of nations around the world. Putin by contrast has unilaterally taken it upon himself to invade Crimea. Also add in the fact that Iraq was dominated by a long-time brutal dictator whom has a proven track record of killing his own people and invading his neighbors aggressively. Ukraine on the other hand just overthrow their president of 2 years and was finally just starting to settle down their chaos but they are still in a vulnerable state of flux and Putin has taken advantage of their weakness to launch his occupation. Putin has in effect violated numerous international laws, and if I am not incorrect there is a specific Ukraine-Russia deal from when Ukraine gained independence that Russia signed declaring it would not invade Ukraine.

3. Heh I think this is something both of us can agree upon, but unfortunately we can't turn back the clock, we can only go forward.
 
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S

ScaryJS97

Guest
#13
Can someone explain to me why Russia have actually invaded Crimea? I know that most of the population of Crimea identify themselves as being ethnically Russian and that Crimea's new leader has asked for assistance from Russia. But why? What is the threat to the people of Crimea and why do they need 'protecting' by Russian forces? Are there tensions between Crimea and the rest of the Ukraine or something? I'm a bit out of the loop, so I appreciate someone filling me in!
 
Feb 21, 2014
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#14
The world is expected not to question the Monroe Doctrine, whereby anyone interfering with countries in the Western Hemisphere is regarded as an interference in the back yard of the United States. Well, okay.

So we had the Cuban Missile Crisis, which was solved, when JFK removed missiles from Turkey, perceived to be in the former USSR's backyard.

Russia's southern fleet is based in Crimea, part of Ukraine, but historically with many links to Russia.

Instead of people calling Mr Putin names, and instead of Russians saying nasty things about JFK, how about acknowledging some basic realities about geographical psychology and its perceptions? :)

It goes back centuries, both in the case of Russia, and in the case of the United States' Monroe Doctrine.
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#15
Can someone explain to me why Russia have actually invaded Crimea? I know that most of the population of Crimea identify themselves as being ethnically Russian and that Crimea's new leader has asked for assistance from Russia. But why? What is the threat to the people of Crimea and why do they need 'protecting' by Russian forces? Are there tensions between Crimea and the rest of the Ukraine or something? I'm a bit out of the loop, so I appreciate someone filling me in!
Well there's two views to this at least in the realm of what the different sides are claiming in public (in private any number of possibilities could be reason.) Pretty much on the Russian side they are claiming they are going to protect their significant naval bases on the Crimean peninsula (Crimea is part of Ukraine) and also to protect ethnic Russians/slavic peoples. On the Ukrainian side they are claiming this is an invasion of their sovereignty.

One must understand a little bit of culture and history though to fully grasp this. Before the Soviet Union, The Russian Empire did in fact control much of Ukraine along with the Crimea, which is their crown jewel on the Black Sea. In fact taking the Crimea is one of the biggest achievements of Peter the Great. Also historically Crimea is important to Russia as this is where they famously slaughtered the Light Brigade during the Crimean War against Britain, fought against the Ottomans, Napoleon, and nazis, all of which were major and important victories for Russia. Not only that but for Crimea's strategic location, in the Russian mindset retaking Crimea is a top priority both culturally and as a matter of imperialist practicality as the Crimean Peninsula is one of history's most important strategic naval locations. Aside from this Russia sees itself as the protector of the race of Slavic Peoples. This is the reason why WW1 started is because Austria retaliated against Serbia which is mostly slavic, and Russia declared war on the Austrian Empire because Russia sees itself as the overlord of the Slavs. This naturally caused Germany to declare war on Russia and Britain and France to declare war on Germany. So we can see how easy it is for one little incident to spiral out of control, this is the main worry with the current situation in Crimea.

On the other hand the Ukrainians themselves enjoy their own unique cultural heritage and after the collapse of Tsarist Russia had a short-lived independence before they were conquered and forced into the Soviet Union. The Ukrainian Partisan faction in WW2 fought against both the nazi and soviet occupations. One of the big reasons for the break up of the Soviet Union was the idea of Ukrainian independence and when the USSR did break up Russia even signed agreements with countries like Ukraine that state they will respect their national sovereignty. Also after the dissolution of the USSR Ukraine was the third biggest nuclear power in the world but due to an international treaty they surrendered their nuclear stockpile in exchange for an agreement with Russia to respect their territorial integrity. After the USSR broke up Ukraine was still somewhat dominated by proxy by Russia but much of that changed thanks to the Orange Revolution in the 2000s. Plus with Ukraine's strategic location there is much pro-Western European culture as well as pro-Russian culture.

Really though what this mostly comes down to is; What is Putin playing at? Putin has been in power since the first day of 2000. So he has held power for quite a while. Putin has made aggression on his neighbors before (2008 against Georgia during olympics.) However last time Putin was told to back off strongly by America and Europe and so he did back off. This time Putin has invaded Crimea in a similar under-handed fashion and no one is really doing anything about it. Putin is a slick player and very intelligent given his KGB background. He is also very nationalistic. Either Putin has grown ambitious in his logn reign of power or he is legitimately trying to either help the slavic peoples of Crimea or take Crimea alone as an attempt to rebirth the Russian Empire.

Really depending how Putin plays this just from this act alone either he will be remembered either on par with Peter the Great for retaking Crimea (plus more glory for doing it swiftly and without firing a shot) or this is a dark parallel to when the West appeased Hitler and the weak response of the West will only foster his imperial ambitions.

Good question though! And remember this is only my analysis and I am just a poor peasant lol. However here is some resources you can use to learn more about some background information on Crimea, Ukraine, and Russia.

(general info on Ukraine courtesy of the CIA)
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/up.html

(General information on Crimea courtesy of wikipedia)
Crimea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(outline of the international treaty Russia has violated regarding Ukrainian sovereignty)
Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Dec 18, 2013
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#17
For everyone here, this is something to consider:

David is partly correct that America has no face, right, or moral ground to "lecture Russia."

However, a major problem here is that America (and also Britain and by extension all the Commonwealth Realms controlled by the British Crown) might be morally obligated to militarily defend Ukraine as per agreements we have made with Ukraine.

It is not so much a matter of Russia vs. America so much as it is a matter of if the Ukrainian government were to ask for military aid from the US or Europe they would be morally obligated to help. I think whether you are pro-Russian or pro-American is irrelevant here, we just do not want this situation to escalate into WW3 but we also do not want to appease Putin and embolden his ambitions.
 
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Mar 21, 2011
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#18
2. This is where I would probably disagree with you. As pointed out the USA gained UN approval and
No! Why would lie about getting UN approval. It's the biggest moment in the last 15 years, when the USA did not get approval and according to the UN charter it was an illegal invasion.

Thus ending all moral authority the USA ever had.

Seriously, why would YOU lie about this? Please ask for forgiveness from God for your lies.
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#19
No! Why would lie about getting UN approval. It's the biggest moment in the last 15 years, when the USA did not get approval and according to the UN charter it was an illegal invasion.

Thus ending all moral authority the USA ever had.

Seriously, why would YOU lie about this? Please ask for forgiveness from God for your lies.
What about all the Hans Blix statements and UN meetings and resolutions prior to the invasion? Granted the UN was lied to, and that doesn't make it right, but that is what happened. There was ample forewarning given to Saddam before invasion, and he could have easily surrendered power and allowed greater access to UN weapons inspectors to prevent the war. So you can see that the Iraq Invasion of 2003 and the Russian Invasion of Crimea of 2014 are very different issues here.

Like I said in my last post, you are partly correct, America has no right or moral ground to lecture Russia. This I do not dispute. However, what you are forgetting is that America and Britain (and as the Queen of Britain makes Australia's treaties and wars, by extension you also) might be morally obligated to defend Ukraine as per agreements made with Ukraine should the Ukrainian government request such.