The Letter to the Romans...

[Karraster]

[SUP]31 [/SUP]What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [SUP]32 [/SUP]He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? [SUP]33 [/SUP]Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. [SUP]34 [/SUP]Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [SUP]36 [/SUP]As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. [SUP]37 [/SUP]Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. [SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

Paul quotes Psalm 44:22-23, showing Israel's suffering (and that of the gentile coming into the faith of Israel), is "nothing new." Such tribulation is actually a sign of their continued election. This theme will be important in the lesson Paul brings forward in the remainder of this letter. ( 9:27-29)

 

[Elin]

The "New Testament" did not exist when Paul wrote his letters. Would you agree with that statement?

That doesn't make sense. Paul is the NT.

You are dividing the entire NT now, along with all the other false divisions?

And the best evidence is that Matthew was written in the early 50's, when the church
was largely Jewish and the gospel was preached to Jews only (Ac 11:19), predating only 1 & 2 Th.

Nevertheless, to understand Romans is to draw from Torah, and the prophets, which is exactly what Paul used.

No so.

What Paul used was the revelation he received from Jesus Christ regarding the meaning of the OT,
and to understand Romans is to examine what Paul states there.

It is governed by nothing other that Christ's revelation to him.

If I am wrong, and somehow a timewarp invention existed back in those days and all
the deciples had access to New Testament before it was written and were teaching off it, please explain that!

In your narrow paradigm of the scope of the NT, you have completely overlooked the strong oral tradition which was the source of knowledge before the gospels were written.

Your agenda is showing.

 

[Elin]

[SUP]All of God's Word agrees, there are no contradictions, from Genesis to Revelations.[/SUP][SUP]

16 [/SUP]The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

The function of a witness is to confirm the truth.

No, the function of a witness is to report what he has witnessed.

Consider the hope of the one trusting in Yahshua. (From children to "heirs.")

According to law, children are natural heirs, unless specified otherwise.

Children and heirs are the same.

Paul is restating a theme of chapter 6 - "baptism" and burial into Yahshua’s death (suffering). Yahshua Himself said that He would suffer (Luke 9:22).

No, baptism into Jesus' death is baptism in death to sin, as Jesus died for sin.

The suffering of Jesus is not the meaning of baptism.

 

[Elin]

Verses 18-21
In these verses, Paul is speaking of a specific event, related to the coming of Messiah and establishment of the Kingdom.

Paul is speaking of creation's liberation from decay, which is the new earth at the end of time,
at the same time as the redemption of our bodies, which is the resurrection, which makes it also at the end of time, with which he locates the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), making it also at the end of time.

The NT specifically locates the new earth with the resurrection (Ro 8:19-21),
which is located with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), all at the end of time.

establishment of the Kingdom.

Nowhere do we find a future temporal earthly kingdom expounded by Peter, James, John or Paul in their letters of instruction and teaching to the NT churches.

Did they forget to tell us about it?

Did they not know about it?

If the apostles themselves did not know about it,
on what basis do we know about it?

Only from our own fancies taken from uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles,
which can be, and are, validly interpreted by others to mean things entirely different.

18 - For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

God's elect must suffer and groan along with, even on behalf of - unredeemed creation.

Nowhere does Paul state that the elect must suffer on behalf of unredeemed creation.

That is skewed contra-NT theology.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Elin: Revelation 5.10

 

[Elin]

[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

"earnest expectation," is rare in Greek and traces back to the Hebrew root "ta’arog," used only in Psalm 21, (My soul pants for thee, O God), and in Joel 1:20, relating to the coming day of the Lord. (See also 1 Corinthians 1:7, Hebrews 9:28.)

Paul is setting up his argument in the next section (chapters 9-11) of the letter where he discusses
how Israel's success will bring about the "revealing of the sons of God," for which creation is longing, and riches beyond measure. Paul will show that Israel is not done away with - she is divided.

Not so.

Nowhere in Ro 9-11 does Paul even mention the liberation of creation from decay (new earth)
with the redemption of our bodies (resurrection).

Ro 9-11 is an entirely different subject from Ro 6- 8, which treats of sanctification by the Holy Spirit.

Ro 9 follows in response to a question naturally raised by the last verse of Ro 8
that nothing can separate God's people (those in Christ) from the love of God.

The question naturally arises: well, then what about the Jews?
They were God's people and they are separated from the love of God?

Wherein Paul shows that not all those descended from Abraham were God's people.

Ro 9-11 has nothing to do with Israel's success bringing about the resurrection
(revealing of the sons of God at the redemption of their bodies).

That is being read into the text (eisegesis), not out of the text (exegesis).

 

[Karraster]

Paul is speaking of creation's liberation from decay, which is the new earth at the end of time,
at the same time as the redemption of our bodies, which is the resurrection, which makes it also at the end of time, with which he locates the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), making it also at the end of time.

The NT specifically locates the new earth with the resurrection (Ro 8:19-21),
which is located with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), all at the end of time.


Nowhere do we find a future temporal earthly kingdom expounded by Peter, James, John or Paul in their letters of instruction and teaching to the NT churches.

Did they forget to tell us about it?

Did they not know about it?

If the apostles themselves did not know about it,
on what basis do we know about it?

Only from our own fancies taken from uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles,
which can be, and are, validly interpreted by others to mean things entirely different.

Nowhere does Paul state that the elect must suffer on behalf of unredeemed creation.

That is skewed contra-NT theology.

I just have one question. If the elect does not suffer on behalf of unredeemed creation, then from where does persecution come?

 

[Elin]

[SUP]20 [/SUP]For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [SUP]21 [/SUP]because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

The term "vanity" (i.e., "in vain"). He is referring back to Genesis 3:17-19. Creation has not been able to fulfill the purpose of its existence due to man’s failure to do his part (because of sin). Creation is in subjection because of God who subjected it on account of man’s fall, and to show man he is in need of God. But it has hope (within the hope for man – compare Romans 16:20 to Genesis 3:15).

Paul supports the Jewish view of Messianic kingdom, which is compared to "a return to Eden." His use of, "for we know …" (verse 22), indicates he believes his audience to be aware of teachings of this tradition. The coming glory of believers comes along with the "restoration of Eden."

Wow!

Your whole basis for Paul teaching a future temporal earthly kingdom is "for we know,"
which refers to Ge 3:17-19 and the curse of the ground?

And from Ge 3:17-19, you conclude that Paul taught a future temporal earthly kingdom,
when he, Peter, James and John nowhere even mention such a notion?

That's quite a "hermeneutic" you've got there!
It's certainly not constrained by what the NT actually states,
all that matters is what you can construe and read into it.

Using that kind of hermeneutic, I can show the NT presents anything I want it to present,
including that faith in Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation.

Who needs the actual teaching of the NT for a plumbline, when your real plumbline is your
theology, whose notions are so agreeable with your own fancies that you think they are of God?

WOW!

 

[Hoffco]

Elin, You must be an a-mill. or a post mill. .Paul and John are the key to end time prophesy. Peter has much to say of end times. Matthew, Mark and Luke have much to say of the rapture and the coming kingdom of Jesus. At this moment, the content of the other books don't come to mind, and James is , I think, the only other author. I don't know who wrote Hebrews. 2 thess. 2 and Rev.6 are the most precise on the timing of the rapture. All the others need to be helped out by Paul and John. This is normal, it is the way God wrote His BOOK, here a little, there a little. God has a secrecy about Himself and His plans that took ,like, 4,000 yrs to reveal. Yet the Cult of Fundamentalism of today likes to sell the false Pre-Tri Rapture as movies, joking, but it does sell.! Anything done with class, sells today; Warren wysby, is about the worse theologian I know, but he sells millions of books. I like some of what he says , and how he writes, very practical, but he preaches a false "faith only" Gospel. Elin, please, think a little less emotional and more practical and reasonable. You need to really evaluate what you say. I think Karraster and RedTent are hung up on the Old T. ordinances and feasts, but they have much good to say on loving and keeping God's laws. ( New T., for today). And, we all suffer from cursed creation. We are all learning. Love ya, Hoffco

 

[Elin]

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? [SUP]25 [/SUP]But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

"First fruits" , the gift of Holy Spirit, feast of Shavuot ("Pentecost").

Paul's mention of "waiting for our adoption" refers back to v.19. We are already adopted sons of God (v. 14,16) – but this is not manifest until resurrection.

Yes, and he locates the resurrection with the
liberation of creation from decay, which is the new earth at the end of time,
which locates the resurrection at the end of time,
which is also located with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), which makes the rapture
at the end of time.

The NT specifically locates the new earth at the end of time with the resurrection
(Ro 8:19-21),
and locates the rapture with the resurrection (1 Th 4:16-17),
specifically making all three at the end of time.

This is specific and inescapable and necessarily precludes any of them from occurring
before the end of time.

Ro 8:19-21 and 1Th 4:16-17's location of the rapture, resurrection and new earth
at the end of time cannot be overcome by uncertain interpretations of any prophecy,
which can be, and are, validly interpreted by others to mean things entirely different.

 

[Hoffco]

Elin, you and Homwardbound are the ones how need to learn "hermeneutics". your post 768 is the pot calling the kettle black. lol. you need to get rightly dividing the word, and build a good sys, theo. Sorry, Love Ya, Hoffco, Doug

 

[Elin]

[SUP]26 [/SUP]Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Paul teaches that creation groans,

Yes, and he also teaches that it will be released from its groaning when it is liberated from decay, which is the new earth at the end of time.
He likewise locates the resurrection with the liberation of creation from decay,
which therefore locates the resurrection at the end of time.

And in 1Th 4:16-17, he locates the rapture with the resurrection, which is
at the end of time, thereby specifically locating the rapture, resurrection and
liberation of creation from decay all at the end of time.

The NT allows no time after the rapture for a future temporal earthly kingdom.

 

[Elin]

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

What can I say? Nothing is hidden from God.

And he has revealed that the rapture (1Th 4:16-17) and the
resurrection specifically occur at the end of time with the new earth (Ro 8:19-21),
which allows for no temporal earthly kingdom after the rapture.

 

[faroukfarouk]

And he has revealed that the rapture (1Th 4:16-17)
and the resurrection specifically occur at the end of time with the new earth (Ro 8:19-21),
which allows for no temporal earthly kingdom after the rapture.

...but there is nothing that has got to happen first before the rapture occurs (1 Thess. 4).

 

[Hoffco]

Elin, again, I have to say, your problem is , you need to learn to read. no body ,who knows reading skills of a 7th grader, can read Rev. and come up with the stupid things you a-mills say. Sorry, but my Reform friends say the same stupid things. Love ya, Hoffco,Doug

 

[Karraster]

And he has revealed that the rapture (1Th 4:16-17) and the
resurrection specifically occur at the end of time with the new earth (Ro 8:19-21),
which allows for no temporal earthly kingdom after the rapture.

[SUP]Revelations 9 [/SUP]And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; [SUP]10 [/SUP]and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.



and you have yet to answer my question in post 767.

 

[Hoffco]

farouffarouk, you have never read 2Thes.2:1-3, ? had you read it? , you would know the rapture can NOT comes until the man of sin is revealed, plus other thinks in the geopolitical world. Love Hoffco

 

[Elin]

[SUP]28 [/SUP]And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

This verse must surely be on the list of "most quoted verses". It is probably misunderstood by many who think it says whatever they pursue should turn out good. If that is the case, they did not read the second part of the verse. It pertains to God's purposes, and not the individual's purpose.

Paul shows, beginning in chapter 9, this "good toward which all things work," is first true with regards to His promises to Israel, a subject Paul left off in 3:3 but now returns to here and through chapters 9-11.

Yes, he shows that not all Abraham's descendants were his children (Ro 9:6-8),
that God's promises to Israel are fulfilled in a remnant only (Ro 11:5), to this day.

(The "chapter breaks" were not part of Paul's original letter and perhaps do not help with the flow of the text.)

What is the basis for your conjecture here?

 

[Karraster]

Elin, You must be an a-mill. or a post mill. .Paul and John are the key to end time prophesy. Peter has much to say of end times. Matthew, Mark and Luke have much to say of the rapture and the coming kingdom of Jesus. At this moment, the content of the other books don't come to mind, and James is , I think, the only other author. I don't know who wrote Hebrews. 2 thess. 2 and Rev.6 are the most precise on the timing of the rapture. All the others need to be helped out by Paul and John. This is normal, it is the way God wrote His BOOK, here a little, there a little. God has a secrecy about Himself and His plans that took ,like, 4,000 yrs to reveal. Yet the Cult of Fundamentalism of today likes to sell the false Pre-Tri Rapture as movies, joking, but it does sell.! Anything done with class, sells today; Warren wysby, is about the worse theologian I know, but he sells millions of books. I like some of what he says , and how he writes, very practical, but he preaches a false "faith only" Gospel. Elin, please, think a little less emotional and more practical and reasonable. You need to really evaluate what you say. I think Karraster and RedTent are hung up on the Old T. ordinances and feasts, but they have much good to say on loving and keeping God's laws. ( New T., for today). And, we all suffer from cursed creation. We are all learning. Love ya, Hoffco

As for me being hung up on the Old Testament, thank you. Not only am I passionate about the Old, but hold the New in the same regard. I love all of God's Word. I pray to Yahovah that He will always give me such yearning to understand it.

Again I say, the scriptures the Bereans searched daily was the Old Testament, Torah, Prophets and writings. They confirmed what Paul said by the already written Word. It must line up.

 

[Elin]

[SUP]29 [/SUP]For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Isaiah 43:1; 44:2,24), He called them by name (Isaiah 43:1,7; 45:4), He proclaimed to them the year of His good will (Isaiah 61:2) He created them for His glory and glorified them (Isaiah 43:7; 44:23; 46:13)[SUP]1[/SUP].

"To be conformed to the image of His son," relates to man’s creation in the image of God (Genesis 1:27). Yahshua is the "image of the invisible God" (2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15).

Actually, "to be conformed to the image of his Son" relates only to those who are in Christ through faith in him by grace.