Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?

[Donkeyfish07]

So you believe in miracles, go to the cemetery and start raising the dead. You believe in laying on of the hands, then heal everybody, and don't say that the one being healed doesn't have enough faith, because it's the one doing the healing that has to have the gift of healing, which is only given by the Apostles to be able to do anything in regards to these gifts, which were given to the Apostles to complete the ministry of Jesus Christ.

Ever read Matthew 4:5-7?

"Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

 

[Shava]

Ever read Matthew 4:5-7?

"Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

1. Miraculous gifts will cease, but faith, hope, and love will abide ( 1 Cor. 13:8,13).
2. Miraculous gifts will cease when that which is perfect comes ( 1 Cor. 13:10).
3. Faith, hope, and love will continue when that which is perfect comes ( 1 Cor. 10:13).
4. Hope can’t continue when Jesus comes because hope that is seen is not hope and Jesus will be seen (Romans 8:24).
5. So, that which is perfect can’t be Jesus’ coming because then hope would not abide.
6. Therefore, that which is perfect must come after the time Paul writes and before Jesus comes again.
7. Therefore, miracles must cease sometime after Paul writes and before Jesus comes again.
8. This was going to happen when the “unity of the faith” came ( Eph. 4:13).
9. The “unity of the faith” came after John wrote the book of Revelation ( Rev. 22:18,19).
10. Miraculous gifts ended after John wrote the book of Revelation.
Finally, we must take into account the purpose of miracles. We read in Mark 16:20, “And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.” The purpose of miracles was to confirm the word of God. They did not have a Bible like you and I have. They had people who were preaching. They needed something to show that what they were preaching and saying was the truth. God gave witness to them through miracles that what they were saying was the truth. This is the purpose of miracles. Notice also Hebrews 2:3,4 “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” The words which were first spoken were confirmed by God bearing witness to the words. How did He do this? Through signs and wonders and divers miracles and gifts of the Holy Ghost. This is how the words of the apostles and prophets were confirmed–proved to be God’s truth. We have the completely revealed word of God today in the Bible. It was confirmed by the resurrection of Jesus from the dead and by the miracles that the apostles performed and is a historical document. We have no more need to have it confirmed today. Where is the need for miracles today? There is no need.
Now take these three things into account. 1) That there is no need for miracles today, 2) that the quality of miracles that are allegedly done today are inferior to the miracles done in the New Testament and 3) that the Bible says that miracles have ceased and where does that leave us? Those who claim to perform miracles today are really charlatans of the basest kind. They are hoaxes and frauds or perhaps profoundly self-deceived. Miracles do not exist today. (By the way, my wife is deaf and would very much like to hear, so if you know of someone who claims to be able to perform miracles, just tell them that we would be happy for them to come down and try.)

 

[KSublett]

That is the truth. People who speak in tongues (including playing a lifeless instrument) judge themselves by themselves and religionists prove that the human mind can be easily deceived: Common people understood that men "set their lies to melodies to deceive the simple." This is a bit long:

A Church of Christ is built upon or EDUCATED by the Prophets and Apostles: The Spirit OF Christ breathed or inspired the true Prophets. Peter said that Jesus of Nazareth made these prophecies more certain. The Apostles (only) were hand picked and taught by Word and Example as Eye-- and Ear-- witnesses of the Risen Lord. Peter said that the PARTS (meros) were left for our Memory and those who do NOT follow that finally PERFECTED parts are false teachers.

Speaking in tongues other than speaking a minor dialect is called gibberish and the speaking word includes proving that you have no love for the BEING PERFECTED Word by playing musical instruments. You will find any claim of tongues or miracles which are Signs and Wonders to validate the speaker will always be marked by loud music which FACILITATES ecstasy or being "our of your mind" which Paul calls a sign of madness connected to Lifeless Instruments or Carnal Weapons. I don't believe you will find claims of Signs and Wonders without lots of backup music which Peter outlaws for the Once for all Delivered Word.

2Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

CUNNING FABLES are soph-izō , A.make wise, instruct. Wise inMousa , Dios [Zeus, Jupiter, Pluto, Hades, . Beelbōsōros, aigiokhoio thugateres” Il.2.491,
II. mousa, as Appellat., music, song, “m. stugera” [DAUGHTERS ALWAYS] A.Eu.308 (anap.); “euphamos” Id.Supp.695 (lyr.); “kanakhan .[CLANGING BRASS] . theias antiluron [LYRE, GUITAR] mousas” S.Tr.643 (lyr.); “Aiakō moisan pherein”[A LADED BURDEN]
.......Apollo, Abaddon, or Apollyon was the LEADER of the MUSES (Revelation 18) called SORCERESSES, consigned to the Lake of Fire. The Latin SPIRITUS specificially points to the spirit of Apollyon. Mouseios II. musical, “kelados
......kela^dos , A.a noise as of rushing waters: generally, loud noise, din, clamour 2. of musical sound, “k. luras” shout, cry, “k. ou paiōnios Abaddon, Apollyon. 2. chirp of the tettix, Ael.NA1.20;

THE MARK OF THE LOCUSTS: tettix This noise is freq. used as a simile for sweet sounds, Il.3.151, Hes.Op.582, Sc.393, Simon.173, 174, etc.; and Plato calls them hoi Mousōnprophētai,
but they also became a prov. for garrulity, “lalein tettix”

la^l-eō , for those not speaking that which is written for our learning.
​

The LOCUSTS unleashed by ABADDON as their king are the MUSES which suddenly hit most agresssively even in instrumental churches. The quiet piano or organ got replaced with a Musical Worship Team boasting about using ROCK AND ROLE. My old church in Murfreesboro, Tn has the preacher claiming that God wants a worship service with SHOCK AND AWE. The Praise Team is exactly the attack of the LOCUSTS. Their job is to drive out those with the Mark of the Word being able to red BLACK text on BROWN paper. You may have noticed that the musical invaders ask the owners to Get Over it or Get Out and they do up to half of the owners cast themselves out of their own "synagogue." The Purpose Driven Locusts of Muses filled with the spiritus of Apollyon their LEADER is to COLLECT and hold captive those with the mark of the Beast:

MARK following cunningly devised fables as performance music
BEAST is defined as A New Style of Music or Satyric Drama
IMAGE is a song or sermon REpresenting to be the WORD (Logos) of Christ as they MOCK the Regulative Principle which is the LOGOS. God is WORD: He will not appear to anyone as SIGNS AND WONDERS to prove that those who REJECT the LOGOS speak for Him.

The LOCUSTS are Mousōnprophētai,

They are a nosodes unwholesome, pestilential, summerfruits, harvest, crop, campaigning-season, opposite of cool and refreshing
sēmainousi” 2. abs., give signs, phthoggos, phōs s., 3. of the Delphic oracle,
2. in war or battle, give the signal of attack, salpiggi” [wind instrument] to make war

la^l-eō , II. chatter, opp. articulate speech, as of locusts, chirp, Theoc.5.34; mesēmbrias lalein tettix (sc. eimi),
III. of musical sounds, “aulō laleō” Theoc.20.29; of trees, v.supr.1.2; “di'aulouēsalpiggos l.” Arist. , D.C.74.14: also c.acc. cogn., magadin lalein sound the magadis,

Hebrews 12 warns that what you MAKE will be shaken again with these loud sounds claiming to be in God's presence. However, it warns that GOD IS STILL A CONSUMING FIRE.

God hears our prayers and HE is the One who answers when we are commanded to ENTER INTO OUR CLOSET because making a show will prove that you depend on the CUNNING FABLES and MYTHOLOGISTS who despise the WORD.

 

[posthuman]

.......Apollo, Abaddon, or Apollyon was the LEADER of the MUSES (Revelation 18) called SORCERESSES, consigned to the Lake of Fire. The Latin SPIRITUS specificially points to the spirit of Apollyon. Mouseios II. musical, “kelados
......kela^dos , A.a noise as of rushing waters: generally, loud noise, din, clamour 2. of musical sound, “k. luras” shout, cry, “k. ou paiōnios Abaddon, Apollyon. 2. chirp of the tettix, Ael.NA1.20;

THE MARK OF THE LOCUSTS: tettix This noise is freq. used as a simile for sweet sounds, Il.3.151, Hes.Op.582, Sc.393, Simon.173, 174, etc.; and Plato calls them hoi Mousōnprophētai,
but they also became a prov. for garrulity, “lalein tettix”

la^l-eō , for those not speaking that which is written for our learning.


​

The LOCUSTS are Mousōnprophētai,

They are a nosodes unwholesome, pestilential, summerfruits, harvest, crop, campaigning-season, opposite of cool and refreshing
sēmainousi” 2. abs., give signs, phthoggos, phōs s., 3. of the Delphic oracle,
2. in war or battle, give the signal of attack, salpiggi” [wind instrument] to make war

la^l-eō , II. chatter, opp. articulate speech, as of locusts, chirp, Theoc.5.34; mesēmbrias lalein tettix (sc. eimi),
III. of musical sounds, “aulō laleō” Theoc.20.29; of trees, v.supr.1.2; “di'aulouēsalpiggos l.” Arist. , D.C.74.14: also c.acc. cogn., magadin lalein sound the magadis,

where in the world are you getting this from?

in Revelation 9 the word for "locust" is ἀκρίς • (akris) and has no other meaning but "grasshopper"

"Abbadon" or "Appolyon" means "destroyer" and as far as i can tell has no relation to "muses" at all. not that "grasshopper" has anything to do with muses either.

i replied to your posts about Miriam earlier; maybe you missed them. but given how far off you are about her, i'm not sure i trust you here either.

i agree though that it helps your argument more if you pull words out of the air that have no relevance to what the Bible actually says.

 

[posthuman]

Then I will go to the altar of God,
​

to God,
my joy and my delight.
​

I will praise you with the lyre,
​

O God, my God.
​

(Psalm 43:4)
​

​

why let the Devil steal your joy? ​

 

[SeaBass]

Then I will go to the altar of God,
​

to God,
my joy and my delight.
​

I will praise you with the lyre,
​

O God, my God.
​

(Psalm 43:4)
​

​

why let the Devil steal your joy? ​

The OT laws do not determine how NT Christians are to worship. So justification for using IM must come from Christ's NT.

 

[SeaBass]

Hmmm...lol...I just have to giggles at this thread...silly to me.

To me the deeper issue is this:

(1) is the word of God the final authority on how NT Christians are to worship

or

(2) does man choose for himself as how to worship God?





Most men agree with #2. And this is how you end up with not ONE body and ONE faith per Eph 4:4,5 but end up with many religious groups that contradict each other in what they believe and SeaBass, and others, are just to keep quiet and accept all the non-credible, non-truthful, man-made contradictions as God's truth.

 

[Mindwrencher]

As a member of the Church of Christ I cannot believe what has happened in the last twenty years in which some Churches of Christ have decided to add instruments to their worshipping, which I feel is a sin. If you are a member of a Church of Christ who has instruments in your church, tell me where you got your authorization to do this? What has changed in the last twenty years to change how you have decided to worship with instruments when the Churches of Christ prior to the last twenty years were always instrument free .

Shava, the instrumental controversy in the church of Christ has been going on for over twenty years. I am 59, and when I was in my twenties I met church of Christ members from out west who had no problem using instrumental music in worship. Most of the disagreements over the type of music was then proclaimed to be the definition of "Psallo".
But other Churches (of Christ) debated using David and his harp out in the fields without divine decree and yet he was described as a "man after God's own heart". So they had no problem using instruments in worship.
Today many people use the argument that in the NT we are told to use Psalms in worship. Psalms were often set to music, therefore if we use them as they were first used we cannot go wrong. God has never sanctioned evil, therefore instruments cannot be classified as "evil".
IMHO, it is ok to use instruments in worship, because we are told that we can use Psalms.
I used to belong to the church of Christ, but do not affiliate myself with them anymore, because they seemed to pick and choose which things were "scriptural" ; for example 1 Tim 2:9: "9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments." Now, how many women in the church of Christ follow Paul's advice? That's right, almost none!! Braided hair? Lot's of women in the CoC have braided hair in the assembly. . But why is this scripture disregarded? Because the CoC regards this verse as one of 1st century custom, and not as a God inspired command. Whereas other verses such as those by Paul in Romans regarding the treatment of "weak" brethren are regarded as a commandment. Why the differentiation? Your guess is as good as mine.
Also consider the following: 1 Cor 11:03-16: " 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God."
Paul goes into this long discourse about women covering their heads in worship, esp v 10: "10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels."
The women in the assembly should cover their heads "because of the angels."
Do women in the CoC cover their heads in the assembly? No. Why? Because the CoC once again regards this passage as one of 1st century custom instead of being a command of God, despite the statement in v 16, saying that if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom...allowing any one to contend with this custom...nor the churches of God.
In other words, the church of God in Paul's day had the custom of women covering their heads in the assembly and allowed no one to contend with it. Because of the angels!(v10) But what angels?
And this is a bit of meat to chew...the angels in Genesis 6, who abandoned their estate and came in to the daughters of men. That they saw the daughters of men were beautiful (or "fit extensions") and took as many as they desired. These same angels are said in the text of Gen 6, to have come in to the daughters of men in those days and also afterwards!! (Which the CoC totally denies.)
And the CoC totally denies the teaching of Paul about women covering their heads also. However...SOME CoC's actually DO practice this today!!
It is because of this Picking and Choosing what is binding and not binding that I do not affiliate myself with the CoC anymore.

 

[posthuman]

The OT laws do not determine how NT Christians are to worship. So justification for using IM must come from Christ's NT.

it's abundantly clear from the Psalms that in the days of the OT musical instruments were used in worship.
this was also pointed out:

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
(Revelation 5:8)

And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders.
(Revelation14:2-3)

so in the future too musical instruments are used in worship, or at least a symbol of them.
(why would God use a symbol of something forbidden to describe worship in heaven?)

what's so different about these days in-between?

 

[posthuman]

accept all the non-credible, non-truthful, man-made contradictions as God's truth.

who will argue with that principle?

but the argument against musical instruments seems to completely hinge on there being no specific NT commandment to use them.
where it's clear that they were used in the temple, it seems to me more like that the command that they not be used is man-made than the other way around.

 

[SeaBass]

Shava, the instrumental controversy in the church of Christ has been going on for over twenty years. I am 59, and when I was in my twenties I met church of Christ members from out west who had no problem using instrumental music in worship. Most of the disagreements over the type of music was then proclaimed to be the definition of "Psallo".
But other Churches (of Christ) debated using David and his harp out in the fields without divine decree and yet he was described as a "man after God's own heart". So they had no problem using instruments in worship.
Today many people use the argument that in the NT we are told to use Psalms in worship. Psalms were often set to music, therefore if we use them as they were first used we cannot go wrong. God has never sanctioned evil, therefore instruments cannot be classified as "evil".
IMHO, it is ok to use instruments in worship, because we are told that we can use Psalms.
I used to belong to the church of Christ, but do not affiliate myself with them anymore, because they seemed to pick and choose which things were "scriptural" ; for example 1 Tim 2:9: "9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments." Now, how many women in the church of Christ follow Paul's advice? That's right, almost none!! Braided hair? Lot's of women in the CoC have braided hair in the assembly. . But why is this scripture disregarded? Because the CoC regards this verse as one of 1st century custom, and not as a God inspired command. Whereas other verses such as those by Paul in Romans regarding the treatment of "weak" brethren are regarded as a commandment. Why the differentiation? Your guess is as good as mine.
Also consider the following: 1 Cor 11:03-16: " 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God."
Paul goes into this long discourse about women covering their heads in worship, esp v 10: "10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels."
The women in the assembly should cover their heads "because of the angels."
Do women in the CoC cover their heads in the assembly? No. Why? Because the CoC once again regards this passage as one of 1st century custom instead of being a command of God, despite the statement in v 16, saying that if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom...allowing any one to contend with this custom...nor the churches of God.
In other words, the church of God in Paul's day had the custom of women covering their heads in the assembly and allowed no one to contend with it. Because of the angels!(v10) But what angels?
And this is a bit of meat to chew...the angels in Genesis 6, who abandoned their estate and came in to the daughters of men. That they saw the daughters of men were beautiful (or "fit extensions") and took as many as they desired. These same angels are said in the text of Gen 6, to have come in to the daughters of men in those days and also afterwards!! (Which the CoC totally denies.)
And the CoC totally denies the teaching of Paul about women covering their heads also. However...SOME CoC's actually DO practice this today!!
It is because of this Picking and Choosing what is binding and not binding that I do not affiliate myself with the CoC anymore.

I do not agree with your argument here.

In another thread Jn 6 has come up where Jesus said "Labour not for the meat which perisheth....but"

Did Jesus literally mean for them to not work for their food? No, 2 Thess 3:10 It's a "not-but" elliptical statement as to where emphasis should be put. More emphasis on working for the food that endures unto everlasting life and less emphasis on working for food to eat.


Peter made a parallel statement to Paul's in 1 Pet 3:3,4

"Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price."

Peter is no more saying that wives should not literally plait the hair or wear gold than he is literally telling them to not put on apparel i.e., go naked. It is another "not-but" elliptical statement where emphasis should be put more on the outward adorning over the inward adorning but not the total exclusion of the outward adorning. So Peter in no way is totally excluding wearing gold, plait hair or putting on clothes.


The same is true with Paul told Timothy in 1 Tim 2:9. Some women were spending too much time in braiding their hair and dressing up in costly clothes to put on a "show". Instead they should spend more time in good works and godliness, verse 10. As Peter said, there is nothing wrong with plaiting the hair and wearing gold, the issue is where one is putting her emphasis.

If you take 1 Pet 3:3 literally, then women are not to put on clothes. If you take 2 Tim 2:9 literally then who determines what clothes are appropriate, what is or is not costly? Should women wear rags and have their hair all tangled and in a mess? No. Again, Peter and Paul are not literally dismissing wearing clothes, plaiting hair or wearing gold but Paul and Peter are placing empahsis on the inward adorning, the good works, the godliness over the outward but not to the literal total exclusion of the outward.

 

[SeaBass]

who will argue with that principle?

but the argument against musical instruments seems to completely hinge on there being no specific NT commandment to use them.
where it's clear that they were used in the temple, it seems to me more like that the command that they not be used is man-made than the other way around.

The fact that you have thousands of varous religious groups who all claim to be Christians, all claim to be going by the bible yet all contradict each other in what they believe proves to me many WILL argue with that principle.


2) you say "no specific NT commandment to use them."

This had been addressed many times in this thread as be very faulty, flawed argument. There was no speicific command for Noah NOT to use oak woood, so he could have built the ark out of oak and still done as God said? No. There is no specific command NOT to use peanuts and orange juice for the Lor'ds Supper, so those elements can be used yet still be using what Jesus instituted?

 

[posthuman]

2Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

CUNNING FABLES are soph-izō , A.make wise, instruct. Wise inMousa , Dios [Zeus, Jupiter, Pluto, Hades, . Beelbōsōros, aigiokhoio thugateres” Il.2.491,
II. mousa, as Appellat., music, song, “m. stugera” [DAUGHTERS ALWAYS] A.Eu.308 (anap.); “euphamos” Id.Supp.695 (lyr.); “kanakhan .[CLANGING BRASS] . theias antiluron [LYRE, GUITAR] mousas” S.Tr.643 (lyr.); “Aiakō moisan pherein”[A LADED BURDEN]

seriously, where are you getting this? ?

"cunningly devised" is in fact sophizo:

σοφίζω • (sophizō) aorist: ἐσόφισα aorist passive: ἐσοφίσθην

1. I make wise: instruct
2. (passive) I become wise, am wise
3. I devise, act cunningly or shrewdly
4. I deceive, beguile

but it has nothing inherently to do with music.

you just tack that on as though it's some obvious relationship, but it's completely unrelated.

??

i don't think this is an example of proper exegesis, but adding to the Word of God what is just not there at all, because of an agenda you have.

please, let the scripture say what it says. there is no need to corrupt it. if you need to corrupt the Word to make a case, it's a good sign that the case you're making is invalid.

 

[posthuman]

TThere is no specific command NOT to use peanuts and orange juice for the Lor'ds Supper, so those elements can be used yet still be using what Jesus instituted?

if all you have are peanuts and orange juice, and you remember the Lord in eating them, i'm not going to condemn you.

when He said "as often as ye do this, do this in remembrance of me" is the important part that you drink wine and eat bread, or that you remember Christ?

you can have the most historically faithful reproductions of period bread and wine, sit in a literal upper room with 12 others, wear accurate costumes and even take your supper in Jerusalem itself, and if you aren't remembering Christ, it's completely worthless. i say if you share a snickers bar and a mountain dew with thanksgiving to God in your heart and keeping Christ in your thoughts, this is more fitting than the snazziest ritual observance you can possibly imagine that's performed by hard hearts and proud minds.

 

[posthuman]

i'd just like to know what changed from the time of temple worship to now, that all the psalms that mention instrumental worship are completely invalidated.

 

[SeaBass]

if all you have are peanuts and orange juice, and you remember the Lord in eating them, i'm not going to condemn you.

when He said "as often as ye do this, do this in remembrance of me" is the important part that you drink wine and eat bread, or that you remember Christ?

you can have the most historically faithful reproductions of period bread and wine, sit in a literal upper room with 12 others, wear accurate costumes and even take your supper in Jerusalem itself, and if you aren't remembering Christ, it's completely worthless. i say if you share a snickers bar and a mountain dew with thanksgiving to God in your heart and keeping Christ in your thoughts, this is more fitting than the snazziest ritual observance you can possibly imagine that's performed by hard hearts and proud minds.

So we can just reject what Christ said and instituted? If we can change what God's word says then why does anyone need a bible for? If I do not have to do what God said when it comes to singing or the Lord's Supper, then why do I have to do anything/everything else the bible says?

Jesus said "as often as ye do this" What did Jesus do? He instituted unleaven bread and fruit of the vine for the Lord's Supper. So I am doing as Jesus did if I use peanuts and o.j for the Lord's Supper? No.


When God told Noah build an ark of gopher wood, Noah could use oak wood just as long as he built the ark? IF we could ignore what Jesus instituted could Noah ignore what God said?

 

[posthuman]

maybe we're asking the wrong question.

what does a person who's been gifted with a talent for piano, or guitar, or flute do if they want to use their talent to glorify God?

bury it in the sand?

given this:
Nevertheless, each person should live as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called them. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches.
(1 Corinthians 7:17)
what do i do if God has seen fit to give me skill at playing drums?

 

[SeaBass]

i'd just like to know what changed from the time of temple worship to now, that all the psalms that mention instrumental worship are completely invalidated.

Col 2:14 Christ nailed the OT to His cross permanently taking ALL of it out of the way making it inactive, of no effect. Heb 10:9 says Christ took away the first (OT) so that he may establish the seocnd (NT).

Heb 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law"

Christ was to be a Priest. Yet under the OT law He could not for He came from the wrong tribe Juda, priests only came from the tribe of Levi, verse 13,14. So a CHANGE in the law was necessary for Christ to be a priest.

 

[posthuman]

When God told Noah build an ark of gopher wood, Noah could use oak wood just as long as he built the ark? IF we could ignore what Jesus instituted could Noah ignore what God said?

does that mean Noah sinned if he used tar or pitch to seal the hull?

 

[watcher2013]

That is the truth. People who speak in tongues (including playing a lifeless instrument) judge themselves by themselves and religionists prove that the human mind can be easily deceived: Common people understood that men "set their lies to melodies to deceive the simple." This is a bit long:

A Church of Christ is built upon or EDUCATED by the Prophets and Apostles: The Spirit OF Christ breathed or inspired the true Prophets. Peter said that Jesus of Nazareth made these prophecies more certain. The Apostles (only) were hand picked and taught by Word and Example as Eye-- and Ear-- witnesses of the Risen Lord. Peter said that the PARTS (meros) were left for our Memory and those who do NOT follow that finally PERFECTED parts are false teachers.

Speaking in tongues other than speaking a minor dialect is called gibberish and the speaking word includes proving that you have no love for the BEING PERFECTED Word by playing musical instruments. You will find any claim of tongues or miracles which are Signs and Wonders to validate the speaker will always be marked by loud music which FACILITATES ecstasy or being "our of your mind" which Paul calls a sign of madness connected to Lifeless Instruments or Carnal Weapons. I don't believe you will find claims of Signs and Wonders without lots of backup music which Peter outlaws for the Once for all Delivered Word.

2Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

CUNNING FABLES are soph-izō , A.make wise, instruct. Wise inMousa , Dios [Zeus, Jupiter, Pluto, Hades, . Beelbōsōros, aigiokhoio thugateres” Il.2.491,
II. mousa, as Appellat., music, song, “m. stugera” [DAUGHTERS ALWAYS] A.Eu.308 (anap.); “euphamos” Id.Supp.695 (lyr.); “kanakhan .[CLANGING BRASS] . theias antiluron [LYRE, GUITAR] mousas” S.Tr.643 (lyr.); “Aiakō moisan pherein”[A LADED BURDEN]
.......Apollo, Abaddon, or Apollyon was the LEADER of the MUSES (Revelation 18) called SORCERESSES, consigned to the Lake of Fire. The Latin SPIRITUS specificially points to the spirit of Apollyon. Mouseios II. musical, “kelados
......kela^dos , A.a noise as of rushing waters: generally, loud noise, din, clamour 2. of musical sound, “k. luras” shout, cry, “k. ou paiōnios Abaddon, Apollyon. 2. chirp of the tettix, Ael.NA1.20;

THE MARK OF THE LOCUSTS: tettix This noise is freq. used as a simile for sweet sounds, Il.3.151, Hes.Op.582, Sc.393, Simon.173, 174, etc.; and Plato calls them hoi Mousōnprophētai,
but they also became a prov. for garrulity, “lalein tettix”

la^l-eō , for those not speaking that which is written for our learning.
​

The LOCUSTS unleashed by ABADDON as their king are the MUSES which suddenly hit most agresssively even in instrumental churches. The quiet piano or organ got replaced with a Musical Worship Team boasting about using ROCK AND ROLE. My old church in Murfreesboro, Tn has the preacher claiming that God wants a worship service with SHOCK AND AWE. The Praise Team is exactly the attack of the LOCUSTS. Their job is to drive out those with the Mark of the Word being able to red BLACK text on BROWN paper. You may have noticed that the musical invaders ask the owners to Get Over it or Get Out and they do up to half of the owners cast themselves out of their own "synagogue." The Purpose Driven Locusts of Muses filled with the spiritus of Apollyon their LEADER is to COLLECT and hold captive those with the mark of the Beast:

MARK following cunningly devised fables as performance music
BEAST is defined as A New Style of Music or Satyric Drama
IMAGE is a song or sermon REpresenting to be the WORD (Logos) of Christ as they MOCK the Regulative Principle which is the LOGOS. God is WORD: He will not appear to anyone as SIGNS AND WONDERS to prove that those who REJECT the LOGOS speak for Him.

The LOCUSTS are Mousōnprophētai,

They are a nosodes unwholesome, pestilential, summerfruits, harvest, crop, campaigning-season, opposite of cool and refreshing
sēmainousi” 2. abs., give signs, phthoggos, phōs s., 3. of the Delphic oracle,
2. in war or battle, give the signal of attack, salpiggi” [wind instrument] to make war

la^l-eō , II. chatter, opp. articulate speech, as of locusts, chirp, Theoc.5.34; mesēmbrias lalein tettix (sc. eimi),
III. of musical sounds, “aulō laleō” Theoc.20.29; of trees, v.supr.1.2; “di'aulouēsalpiggos l.” Arist. , D.C.74.14: also c.acc. cogn., magadin lalein sound the magadis,

Hebrews 12 warns that what you MAKE will be shaken again with these loud sounds claiming to be in God's presence. However, it warns that GOD IS STILL A CONSUMING FIRE.

God hears our prayers and HE is the One who answers when we are commanded to ENTER INTO OUR CLOSET because making a show will prove that you depend on the CUNNING FABLES and MYTHOLOGISTS who despise the WORD.

which of the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased to exist and which are available?
and when did they ceased to exist?