Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?
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Christ is after the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:17, Psalm 110:4). that predates the Levitical priesthood.
we're the temple of the Lord now; the Spirit indwells us where before the Shekinah descended on the temple. if a harp and a lyre were used in the old temple, why can't a man or a woman indwelt by the Spirit use a harp or a lyre?
why do we even read the OT?
if pork or meat sacrificed to idols was taboo before, but is now free to anyone whose faith isn't too weak to accept it with thanksgiving, and music was encouraged if not commanded by the Psalms before, how is it that the brother that makes a joyful noise to the Lord now "on an instrument of ten strings" is become the weaker one? are we set free or bound with new chains?
we're the temple of the Lord now; the Spirit indwells us where before the Shekinah descended on the temple. if a harp and a lyre were used in the old temple, why can't a man or a woman indwelt by the Spirit use a harp or a lyre?
why do we even read the OT?
if pork or meat sacrificed to idols was taboo before, but is now free to anyone whose faith isn't too weak to accept it with thanksgiving, and music was encouraged if not commanded by the Psalms before, how is it that the brother that makes a joyful noise to the Lord now "on an instrument of ten strings" is become the weaker one? are we set free or bound with new chains?
On the occasion of the last supper, when Jesus said "Do this in remembrance of Me" was He saying do this exactly as I have done for a perpetual ritual? Or was He saying "When you commune with each other remember me." Or in other words, "Remember how we communed with each other". Here is yet one more instance of a legalist point of view, taking the occasion to the extreme limits and binding everyone to unleavened bread (or crackers) and grape juice, which they go to great lengths to prove it was grape juice and NOT WINE, as the writer stated. They insist it was "WATERED DOWN" wine, or watered down grape juice. In any instance, they insist it MUST replicate what they did , or it is invalid.
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I am certain that if legalists took a good look at their views, they would realize how wrong they are. When God said use gopherwood (???) it was probably because gopherwood was plenteous where Noah lived. It took 120 years to construct the ark, during which time Noah preached about the coming disaster. He had three sons and their wives and his own wife to help, yet legalists will insist that Noah built it alone because it took 120 years!? The declaration 120 years was decreed by God as the time limit men had before the flood would arrive. Yet others insist it meant that man would only be able to live for 120 years maximum, after the flood, a view disproved by the length of other patriarchs after the flood.
Ah legalism, Christian slavery to the minutest of details or be lost forever.
Ah legalism, Christian slavery to the minutest of details or be lost forever.
Just because one has a gift in playing an instrument in no way implies that gift is to be used in worship. There were those in the NT we read about who had a "gift" to make idols out of gold and silver. So they should use their "gifts" for worship by making idols to worship? I knew someone who had a 'gift' to kick field goals. So we should start kicking field goals in worship?
Lets take this obtrusive reasoning to a whole new level...you say that the bible doesn't say to use musical instruments in way of worship, because it is not found explicitly in the N.T.?....RIGHT?
Do you have a church building that you worship in?.....Show me scripture that tells us to build church buildings in the N.T.
Do You pass a plate for money (offering).....which verses command us to (pass the plate)....quote if you will!
Do you have any programs and or the American flag or so called Christian flag flying in your (non called for church building)
what scriptures do you use to justify the flags if you have them or the programs
Do you put up ex Pagan idols in celebration of the Birth of Christ as in trees and lights? Read Jeremiah 10 and then justify the tree if you use it.....or show me scriptures....
Your reasoning is flawed and your religion was started by a man whose last name was not Christ!
There are multitudes of things that ALL CHURCHES do that are not found explicitly in scriptures and yet are biblical as God allows boundaries within the word of God and as long as we remain within the boundaries we are acceptable unto Jesus!
Re: Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship
Do you have a church building that you worship in?.....Show me scripture that tells us to build church buildings in the N.T.
Do You pass a plate for money (offering).....which verses command us to (pass the plate)....quote if you will!
Do you have any programs and or the American flag or so called Christian flag flying in your (non called for church building)
what scriptures do you use to justify the flags if you have them or the programs
Do you put up ex Pagan idols in celebration of the Birth of Christ as in trees and lights? Read Jeremiah 10 and then justify the tree if you use it.....or show me scriptures....
Your reasoning is flawed and your religion was started by a man whose last name was not Christ!
There are multitudes of things that ALL CHURCHES do that are not found explicitly in scriptures and yet are biblical as God allows boundaries within the word of God and as long as we remain within the boundaries we are acceptable unto Jesus!
Heb 7:14 "For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood."
The Hebrew writers' point is that Christ came from the wrong tribe to be a Priest. Therefore a change of law was necessary for Christ to be a Priest. THis is one reasson why the OT law could not coexist along side the NT law. ANother reason is the OT was based on the blood of bulls and goats that could not make one completely justified before God. Whereas the NT, based on the blood of Christ, can make one completely justified before God.
James 2:10 and Gal 5:3 make the point that if one goes back to the OT law to find justification for using IM, then he is a debtor, he must contend for and keep ALL that law else he becomes guilty of ALL that law.
The Hebrew writers' point is that Christ came from the wrong tribe to be a Priest. Therefore a change of law was necessary for Christ to be a Priest. THis is one reasson why the OT law could not coexist along side the NT law. ANother reason is the OT was based on the blood of bulls and goats that could not make one completely justified before God. Whereas the NT, based on the blood of Christ, can make one completely justified before God.
James 2:10 and Gal 5:3 make the point that if one goes back to the OT law to find justification for using IM, then he is a debtor, he must contend for and keep ALL that law else he becomes guilty of ALL that law.
Christ was saying they werre to carry out the Lord's Supper as He did. Those in Corinth were carrying it out but abused it by trying to make a common meal out of it. If none of this really mattered then Paul had no reason to condemn those Corinthians and how they carried out the Lord's Supper.
Frout of the vine is all that I canfind in refernce to the Lord's Supper which literally means that which is naturallyborn of the vine...grape juice. If onios had been used it would help your argument. Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper during sedar, no yeast in the house, no consuming yeast products of which fermented wine is a product of yeast...UNLEAVEN bread, unfemented wine.
I am curious, can you show me where in the bible where the word legalist or legalism is found?
Frout of the vine is all that I canfind in refernce to the Lord's Supper which literally means that which is naturallyborn of the vine...grape juice. If onios had been used it would help your argument. Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper during sedar, no yeast in the house, no consuming yeast products of which fermented wine is a product of yeast...UNLEAVEN bread, unfemented wine.
I am curious, can you show me where in the bible where the word legalist or legalism is found?
Lets take this obtrusive reasoning to a whole new level...you say that the bible doesn't say to use musical instruments in way of worship, because it is not found explicitly in the N.T.?....RIGHT?
Do you have a church building that you worship in?.....Show me scripture that tells us to build church buildings in the N.T.
Do You pass a plate for money (offering).....which verses command us to (pass the plate)....quote if you will!
Do you have any programs and or the American flag or so called Christian flag flying in your (non called for church building)
what scriptures do you use to justify the flags if you have them or the programs
Do you put up ex Pagan idols in celebration of the Birth of Christ as in trees and lights? Read Jeremiah 10 and then justify the tree if you use it.....or show me scriptures....
Your reasoning is flawed and your religion was started by a man whose last name was not Christ!
There are multitudes of things that ALL CHURCHES do that are not found explicitly in scriptures and yet are biblical as God allows boundaries within the word of God and as long as we remain within the boundaries we are acceptable unto Jesus!
Re: Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship
Do you have a church building that you worship in?.....Show me scripture that tells us to build church buildings in the N.T.
Do You pass a plate for money (offering).....which verses command us to (pass the plate)....quote if you will!
Do you have any programs and or the American flag or so called Christian flag flying in your (non called for church building)
what scriptures do you use to justify the flags if you have them or the programs
Do you put up ex Pagan idols in celebration of the Birth of Christ as in trees and lights? Read Jeremiah 10 and then justify the tree if you use it.....or show me scriptures....
Your reasoning is flawed and your religion was started by a man whose last name was not Christ!
There are multitudes of things that ALL CHURCHES do that are not found explicitly in scriptures and yet are biblical as God allows boundaries within the word of God and as long as we remain within the boundaries we are acceptable unto Jesus!
AGAIN, in Acts 20:7 God brought the discples together (passive voice) on the first day of the week.
So for the discples to come together necessarily impies they have a PLACE to come together. Whether that palce is a building, tent, under a tree is a matter of expediency just as long as they come together as God directs. It's impossbile to come together without having a place.
I know of no such thing as a "Christian flag"
We do not celebrate Christmas (Easter for that matter) as a religious holiday, it is as secular as 4th of July, Thanksgiving, etc.
it's entirely possible to make wine from grapes without yeast.
today "kosher wine" is made with yeast, and the Jews justify this saying that the commandment against yeast only pertained to certain types of yeast.
... but there's a pretty long thread about drinking going on already.
i think the abuse of the Lord's supper at Corinth bears looking more closely at, because the Bible doesn't agree with how you've portrayed it.
here's Paul's actual reprimand to the church:
So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait forone another — if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home — so that when you come together it will not be for judgment.
(1 Corinthians 11:33-34)
notice that Paul doesn't say "you're eating peanuts and orange juice instead of bread and wine! make sure when you come together no one eats or drinks anything but bread and wine."
does Paul say anything about them eating the "wrong food" ?
When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.
(1 Corinthians 11:20-22)
is the problem that they were "making a common meal out of it" or that they were eating the "wrong food" ?
not at all! the problem is that they were eating and drinking with their own desires in their heart, so that some people didn't get anything to eat while others got so much to drink they were drunk.
"drunk." yes, the scripture actually says that. and Paul didn't think to say "what are you doing using fermented wine! the command is only to drink grape juice!" what Paul says instead is "share."
you would think that if the issue was wine v. grape juice, or pomegranates vs. unleavened bread, that would be the issue he would address. but it's not.
the issue is the heart and the attitude with which the remembrance was carried out, not what was on the plates.
the same is the issue with worship - it's the heart and the mind that need to be right, not the timbre and the tempo.
there's nothing wrong with washing the outside of the pot, but it's the inside that matters.
The next question would be...When did ALL the gifts ceased?
Your response shows your lack of understanding of the gifts:
for your own sake..read 1 cor 12:
wisdom is a gift, so is knowledge...Do you still believed ALL gifts ceased?
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues
and there's the above HELPS...
Do you believe that too ceased?
Let me ask you this...What is the purpose of the Holy ghost?
because, believing ALL the gifts ceased..is equivalent to not believing the presence of the Holy Spirit...which could be considered as "unpardonable Sin"...
Your response shows your lack of understanding of the gifts:
for your own sake..read 1 cor 12:
wisdom is a gift, so is knowledge...Do you still believed ALL gifts ceased?
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues
and there's the above HELPS...
Do you believe that too ceased?
Let me ask you this...What is the purpose of the Holy ghost?
because, believing ALL the gifts ceased..is equivalent to not believing the presence of the Holy Spirit...which could be considered as "unpardonable Sin"...
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