We are not saved by Grace/Faith alone, and I can prove it.

[DavidLOVESsnow]

And you think I don't know what Calvinism is?

Well it appeared to be that way, no offense was implied by informing you about it.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

1. I never knew you means I NEVER KNEW YOU. Stop twisting it. Of course they never did those things. BECAUSE THEY WERE NEVER SAVED! Which is why JESUS NEVER KNEW THEM

2. The bible was written in hebrew, chaldean and greek. Those languages con not be fully translated to english, so I suggest to look to them for guidance. You will be better served.

In your context it makes sense, but I am not twisting anything. In the context of Matthew 25:31-46 your point doesn't make sense, but mine does. Out of context, your perspective does make sense. That is why I disagree with your perspective.

 

[chubbena]

So this is the argument I have seen on here a couple of times and it lacks logic. Let me put the basic understanding people have told me :

1. We are not saved by works, but through grace only. No matter what works you do, they do not allow you to or enter into Heaven.
2. Only through faith in Jesus can you enter Heaven.

That is the basic understanding I have seen throughout these forums and debates I have been in with people. I have some spare time now as I prepare for my class today but it won't be too much so I may take time to respond. Regardless, the main points above are the foundation of this teaching. There are more points to this teaching in Calvinism, but I don't think people here are on that boat so I'll only address that when it's necessary (and I aready have a file saved on my computer with my debate topics on Calvinism so it wont take me long to respond).

So my first point is the warning I have to people. Read Galatians 1:6-9. It warns of the dangers of teaching a false doctrine. Also to prepare yourself, read Psalm 12:6-7. You should keep these verses in mind as I go through the problems of this teaching.

Faith Alone - First off, I shall define faith :
"1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing." (faith - definition of faith by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.)

What this means is that, faith is the belief in something. So you having faith in Jesus means you believe he exists. This can not constitute for the sound reason you enter into Heaven. You may ask, well why not? Well a few reasons I will list:

1. You can have faith Jesus exists and yet still commit Sodomy, Fornication, etc. These things will send you to hell 1. Corinthians 6:12
2. You can have faith Jesus exists and still purposely go against him. That is what satanists do. They believe in God and Jesus but purposely go against him.

Now I will expand on the above topic of faith later on, but I need to create a similar small outline of Grace.
Grace - Firstoff, I shall define Grace:
"3. goodwill or favour" (grace - definition of grace by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.). Now if you go to the web link, you will see there are many, many definitions of grace. However, I am picking this one because it seems to be the more accurate definition on the topic. If you think there is a better definition I would gladly accept it, but for the moment this will suffice (regardless of the definition, my logically statements will prove my point anyways so don't think the 1 definition makes a big difference). Now it is true, that the gift to go to Heaven is available. But that does not mean that it doesn't come with expectations. There is a misconception that Grace = free gift to Heaven. Let me outline some problems with this:

1. 1. Corinthians 6:12 as I stated above, it applies here too. You can always decide to sin, does that mean you still get to go to Heaven?
2. If getting into Heaven was a free gift, then why did God make the commandments? He obviously made rules for you to follow in order to get into Heaven, therefore you need to follow the law to enter Heaven.

Now to put this together. I would like everyone to read Matthew 25:31-46. If you read that part of the Gospels of Christ, a few things become obvious:

1. The "goats" had faith in Jesus. They prophesied in his name, they cast out demons in his name, etc. The fact that they casted out demons meant they were real Christians (Mark 16:16-18) and therefore were true Christians. However, they did not visit the man in prison, they didn't feed the man who was hungered, etc. They did not do any works that was listed by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46.
2. If Good works do not get you into Heaven, then does that mean Bad works do not get you into hell? What my point is, is that if by grace and faith alone you enter Heaven, then wouldn't murderers, theives, adulterers, etc. enter Heaven too because they have grace and faith, and works do not allow you to enter Heaven? Do you see the illogical perspective that is? If Good works do not send you to Heaven, then Bad works cant send you to hell. Therefore, if the whole logic of only through grace/faith we get to Heaven is true, then the commandments wouldnt exist, neither would 1. Corinthians 6:12 exist. The whole saved through grace and faith alone completely disagrees with what is in the Bible itself.
3. Why does the book of life exist then? If works do not get you into Heaven, then why would a book exist SPECIFICALLY to write down what good works and bad works you do? Read about the book of life here, and there are many place sit is referred to in the Bible(Exodus 32:32; Daniel 12:1; Luke 10:10; Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12; 20:15).

In Conclusion, the whole argument that through grace and faith alone we are saved is false doctrine. It goes against what Jesus taught in Matthew 25:31-46, it goes against 1. Corinthians 6:12, it goes against logic, it goes against the whole existence of the Book of Life (Exodus 32:32; Daniel 12:1; Luke 10:10; Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12; 20:15), and it goes against God's Law.

If you read the Bible it will become apparent, or if you even read what I wrote that grace/faith alone sends you to Heaven. Jesus himself said in Matthew 25:31-46 how Christians who were pure Christians (refer to Mark 16:16-18 for proof) who casted out demons who went to hell for not doing good works. If Works were not important, these bible quotes wouldn't exist and Jesus wouldn't tell you what he says in Matthew 5:40-42 either if works did not matter at all. Also the book of life would NOT EXIST if works did not matter. Reiterating that because a lot of people seem to forget about it, THE BOOK OF LIFE WOULD NOT EXIST IF WORKS DID NOT MATTER.

Now I know people will not read all of this, but please take the time to read this whole thing, read the Bible quotes, and realize the problems in this false teaching. For Galatians 1:6-9 says [and im paraphrasing] that whoever teaches these false doctrines will be accursed.

I wish I had the ability to reason like that at your age but I was too busy listening to the RC priests and later on the protestant pastors.
You said you prepare for your class. Are you a teacher or a student? Are you at a seminary? If you are, I'm sure you won't be popular and before long you'd be kicked out of it. Or before long you'd be kicked out of here.
I like your post not because it's without fault. It's because you think.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

I wish I had the ability to reason like that at your age but I was too busy listening to the RC priests and later on the protestant pastors.
You said you prepare for your class. Are you a teacher or a student? Are you at a seminary? If you are, I'm sure you won't be popular and before long you'd be kicked out of it. Or before long you'd be kicked out of here.
I like your post not because it's without fault. It's because you think.

Thanks lol. And no im just in College. I don't go to church either. I haven't found one that teaches the Bible properly and the one I found that did was sold and someone was using it as their own home.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I never said that at all. Please do not put words in my mouth. All I am saying is that if you believe in God, obey the commandments and laws, but dont do any good deeds when the opportunity comes don't expect to enter Heaven as it says in Matthew 25:31-46. It's very clear. Good deeds/works are based on loving thy neighbour as thyself, because if you were in that situation you should want to help them too. And Jesus himself said that loving thy neighbour as thyself was extremely important.

1. I do do good deeds. But they are not my good deeds, They are the deeds of my father, He just uses me to perform his work.

If I am saved, that is a given. Again, read the epistles of John. a nd eph 2: 10

2. I do expect to heaven. Not based on my good deeds (I can never be good enough) But based on the major Good dead Gods son did, Which is take the cross in my place (called redemption)

You are relying on yourself. if you did not, you would trust God, and not yourself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In your context it makes sense, but I am not twisting anything. In the context of Matthew 25:31-46 your point doesn't make sense, but mine does. Out of context, your perspective does make sense. That is why I disagree with your perspective.

there is no perspective. Only wishful thinking to support your false claim of a works based legalistic gospel.

HE NEVER KNEW THEM.

Reality states, if they were saved at one time (using even your own interpretation of miracles and demons) HE WOULD HAVE KNOWN THEM AT ONE TIME, then WHEN THEY LOST SALVATION, He did not KNOW them anymore.

Thus he could NEVER say, I NEVER KNEW YOU

he would be forced to say, I knew you at one time, but you walked away from me. Or I knew you at one time, But you turned back to your sin.

He did not say any of these things, which would support your doctrine. HE SAID I NEVER KNEW YOU

Don't make God a liar

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

there is no perspective. Only wishful thinking to support your false claim of a works based legalistic gospel.

HE NEVER KNEW THEM.

Reality states, if they were saved at one time (using even your own interpretation of miracles and demons) HE WOULD HAVE KNOWN THEM AT ONE TIME, then WHEN THEY LOST SALVATION, He did not KNOW them anymore.

Thus he could NEVER say, I NEVER KNEW YOU

God made people, he knows them. He knows every hair on their head. The part where he says that is referring to them not helping the people in need. It's that simple. It fits the context of the quote. What you are saying does not fit the context of the quote neither does it make sense - God knows everyone, even the people in hell.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

1. I do do good deeds. But they are not my good deeds, They are the deeds of my father, He just uses me to perform his work.

If I am saved, that is a given. Again, read the epistles of John. a nd eph 2: 10

2. I do expect to heaven. Not based on my good deeds (I can never be good enough) But based on the major Good dead Gods son did, Which is take the cross in my place (called redemption)

You are relying on yourself. if you did not, you would trust God, and not yourself.

Please don't make a false accusation of what Im saying. I never said I trust myself more then God. All I sauaid was, is that if I don't do any good deeds at all yet follow commandments, I wont go to heaven. This is because I wouldn't be obeying "love thy neighbour as thyself".

Of course you are doing the deeds, but you give credit to God. Just like when you go to work, God allowed you to have that job, or God allowed you to get paid and get food. You still worked, but God allowed you to do it. It's that simple.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Please don't make a false accusation of what Im saying. I never said I trust myself more then God. All I sauaid was, is that if I don't do any good deeds at all yet follow commandments, I wont go to heaven. This is because I wouldn't be obeying "love thy neighbour as thyself".

Of course you are doing the deeds, but you give credit to God. Just like when you go to work, God allowed you to have that job, or God allowed you to get paid and get food. You still worked, but God allowed you to do it. It's that simple.

Before you mis-interprit what im saying, im saying God allowed you to do it in the first place. He always gets all the glory. It doesn't mean you did nothing. [be careful, you are getting very close to Calvinist beliefs]

 

[notuptome]

No man deserves to be saved. That is why we must be saved by grace. It seems too simple that God would save any man who comes to Christ and asks it of Him. In mans mind there must be something that he can do or something that he must never do to participate in his salvation. God planned and executed His means of salvation for lost and fallen mankind. God did it long before there was an Adam to fall from Gods perfection.

I see a lot of straw man arguments being made on this subject. I guess that is to be expected as even the apostles had to deal with this problem. We are saved by grace because God chose to save us in that fashion. Faith is the means by which we receive Gods grace. The faith needed to receive Gods grace comes from hearing Gods word not from mans intellect. This in my opinion is why there is so much disagreement on the subject. The devil creates confusion so he can entice away souls. Jesus said that no man can come unto Him except the Father draw him. Men are drawn to Christ when they hear the word of God and the Holy Spirit moves to reveal to them that they are sinners and that their sin sends them to the lake of fire for eternity. The Holy Spirit then reveals that Jesus will save them because Jesus satisfied Gods holy demand for justice with His vicarious death on the cross. Jesus further proved His promise by resurrecting from the tomb on the third day. I believe that a man cannot get saved until he first realizes he is lost. Only then can he come to Christ in humility and with a contrite heart needed to repent and be born again. It is not mans will or intellect that begets this action but Gods determinate will for man to be saved according to the scriptures.

Some have rightly concluded that works follow genuine salvation. If there are no works fit for repentance then there is great doubt of the sincerity of the profession of salvation. Paul did conclude that those saved by grace through faith were the workmanship of Christ unto good works.

There are two evidences in our life that we have been born again by the washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit. One is that the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are saved. The second is that we produce good works because we are now graft into the Branch Who is Christ and He produces good works through us.

We do righteous works not to become saved or to remain saved but because we are saved and can do no else. We do better to stop worrying about someone whom we often do not know doing exactly what we cannot say who may or may not even be saved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

No man deserves to be saved. That is why we must be saved by grace. It seems too simple that God would save any man who comes to Christ and asks it of Him. In mans mind there must be something that he can do or something that he must never do to participate in his salvation. God planned and executed His means of salvation for lost and fallen mankind. God did it long before there was an Adam to fall from Gods perfection.

I see a lot of straw man arguments being made on this subject. I guess that is to be expected as even the apostles had to deal with this problem. We are saved by grace because God chose to save us in that fashion. Faith is the means by which we receive Gods grace. The faith needed to receive Gods grace comes from hearing Gods word not from mans intellect. This in my opinion is why there is so much disagreement on the subject. The devil creates confusion so he can entice away souls. Jesus said that no man can come unto Him except the Father draw him. Men are drawn to Christ when they hear the word of God and the Holy Spirit moves to reveal to them that they are sinners and that their sin sends them to the lake of fire for eternity. The Holy Spirit then reveals that Jesus will save them because Jesus satisfied Gods holy demand for justice with His vicarious death on the cross. Jesus further proved His promise by resurrecting from the tomb on the third day. I believe that a man cannot get saved until he first realizes he is lost. Only then can he come to Christ in humility and with a contrite heart needed to repent and be born again. It is not mans will or intellect that begets this action but Gods determinate will for man to be saved according to the scriptures.

Some have rightly concluded that works follow genuine salvation. If there are no works fit for repentance then there is great doubt of the sincerity of the profession of salvation. Paul did conclude that those saved by grace through faith were the workmanship of Christ unto good works.

There are two evidences in our life that we have been born again by the washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit. One is that the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are saved. The second is that we produce good works because we are now graft into the Branch Who is Christ and He produces good works through us.

We do righteous works not to become saved or to remain saved but because we are saved and can do no else. We do better to stop worrying about someone whom we often do not know doing exactly what we cannot say who may or may not even be saved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I had to add to your reputation for that post, it's spot on.

Noone should have to argue anymore. You basically are the duct-tape that connected both sides together. Great job.

Im going to take a nap now before I go to class. I can get in a 2 hour power nap quickly.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God made people, he knows them. He knows every hair on their head. The part where he says that is referring to them not helping the people in need. It's that simple. It fits the context of the quote. What you are saying does not fit the context of the quote neither does it make sense - God knows everyone, even the people in hell.

Again.

You need to go to the greek.

The word "know" there is a personal relationship. God only KNOWS those who ARE HIS.

Your right, they did not do what he asks. Why?

THEY WERE NEVER SAVED.

Your belief does not fit the passage, move on..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Please don't make a false accusation of what Im saying. I never said I trust myself more then God. All I sauaid was, is that if I don't do any good deeds at all yet follow commandments, I wont go to heaven. This is because I wouldn't be obeying "love thy neighbour as thyself".

Your not even listening to what you say..

You said IF I...... Note the word I. Anytime you put the word I in anything, the finger is pointing at self.

Don't tell me your not trustng in self. when you SAY I MUST.. Because you are. That is no different than the pharisees.

PS. Those good deeds ARE COMMANDS of God. That we should do them

so why are you separating them from commands??

Of course you are doing the deeds, but you give credit to God. Just like when you go to work, God allowed you to have that job, or God allowed you to get paid and get food. You still worked, but God allowed you to do it. It's that simple.

No it is not that simple.

A person who is not given the spirit CAN NOT DO GOOD DEEDS. Oh, they may appear to you and I as Good., But God calls them filthy rags, Because they are motivated out of self. Not out of love..

 

[notuptome]

Thanks lol. And no im just in College. I don't go to church either. I haven't found one that teaches the Bible properly and the one I found that did was sold and someone was using it as their own home.

Now there's a surprise. I could have guessed that you were not in a church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[chubbena]

Thanks lol. And no im just in College. I don't go to church either. I haven't found one that teaches the Bible properly and the one I found that did was sold and someone was using it as their own home.

I'm glad it's sold.
Jeremiah said those in the new covenant don't need teachers.
Jeremiah 31:31-34 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to[SUP] [/SUP]them,” declares the Lord. “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
That is, as long as we can read, have a brain to think, have the time to meditate His word, have an open mind to yield to the Holy Spirit - and have a closed mind to noises

 

[notuptome]

I'm glad it's sold.
Jeremiah said those in the new covenant don't need teachers.
Jeremiah 31:31-34 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband tothem,” declares the Lord. “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
That is, as long as we can read, have a brain to think, have the time to meditate His word, have an open mind to yield to the Holy Spirit - and have a closed mind to noises

Really? Why does the Lord gift teacher/pastors to the church? Why did the Holy Spirit write in Hebrews the admonition not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together as is the manner of some?

It is a wise son that does not disregard the commandments of his father.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm glad it's sold.
Jeremiah said those in the new covenant don't need teachers.
Jeremiah 31:31-34 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband tothem,” declares the Lord. “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
That is, as long as we can read, have a brain to think, have the time to meditate His word, have an open mind to yield to the Holy Spirit - and have a closed mind to noises

church is not just for recieving instruction. It is for the body to get together as much as they can and do what the NT church did in acts.

Anyone not assembling themselves together with the body is in sin. And for them to judge others, they have no basis to do anything.. Especially teach others. A hypocrite tells people to do Gods commands, Then does not even do one of the most important command God has ever given..

 

[Simona25]

God's grace saves us, but we also, from our side, must have faith and love (expressed love); salvation is a co-work between God's grace and our will.
I will post a video made by an orthodox christian priest that presents the protestant view of salvation vs the orthodox view of salvation. Hope you'll enjoy:
[video=youtube;WosgwLekgn8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8[/video]

 

[p_rehbein]

With regards to the claim made in the title of the OP............

NO, you can't and you have not...........but, hey............keep piling up them "works."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God's grace saves us, but we also, from our side, must have faith and love (expressed love); salvation is a co-work between God's grace and our will.
I will post a video made by an orthodox christian priest that presents the protestant view of salvation vs the orthodox view of salvation. Hope you'll enjoy:
[video=youtube;WosgwLekgn8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8[/video]

wrong

God does not need anything from us, Even if he did. We can not provide him with anything, We are totally unworthy. And nothing we can do would make us acceptable to God.

Salvation is God saying (I WILL).. Not him saying, If you do these works. I MAY.