Is there such a thing as an atheist?

[kennethcadwell]

I just wanted to post and I will have to look this up again, but a few months ago I saw a special on three major colleges that are doing an all out study and working on a report because they found major loop holes in the hole evolution theory. I will look more of it up, and can't wait for their results to see what loop holes they found to find it false. I never believed in evolution, but I always get excited every time a study or scientist come out to prove a former theory or scientist wrong, or at least come up with another theory showing holes or issues that were wrong in the previous. Funny how this seems to happen a lot, yet they still try to quote a theory as being fact, hahaha !!!

 

[deepthought]

There is Spiritual and physical. Thoughts are they physical? Are thoughts always alive?

I would say that the physical is for the most part objective whereas spiritual can only be subjective. Thoughts can be tracked to electrical activity between Nurons within the brain thereby making them physical. The meme of an idea like a virus can be spread but will never be identical between two entities. This is becuase thoughts are related to perception and we all percieve the world in slightly different ways. Therefore, when the person dies, their thoughts die with them. But ideas which evolved from those thoughts can be spread.

 

[JesusLives]

However, as Percepi points out, the promise is irrelevant to the nonbeliever. “It was not to judge the world that God sent his Son into the world, but that through him the world might be saved” (John 3:17 NEB). How does this help members of remote Amazonian tribes who, to this day, have not heard of Christ? Will they not be saved? Might it be that when John wrote his text he was not aware that large parts of the world were too remote to receive the message?

Bible says every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. God has ways to reach people I know nothing about. But everyone will have had a chance by the time the end comes to make that choice.

 

[JesusLives]

Alright, I apologize if I seemed frustrated.

Happily accepted- no harm, no foul.

 

[homwardbound]

I should've been clearer. I will not waste any time or effort in this life worrying about an afterlife.

A lot of christians seem like they can't wait for the end times, and are not focussing on this life at all. Unless of course it's an action that may affect their afterlife.

Their ambition seems to be death and what's beyond.

Mine is enjoying this life and who I have around me.

Awesome and is why today is called the present for it is a present is it not?

And the Bible talks of exactly this live in the present.

 

[homwardbound]

I am at peace with myself. I feel loved and I do love.

You can argue that the love I hold is different than that held by Christians. Fair enough, but the love I hold is genuine - and if anyone paints the love held by atheists to be meaningless, unhappy, unfulfilled, or unwarranted, know they are wrong.

Far too often, Christians preach that one can not love without first loving God. The create this image that love is impossible to obtain - in general. When atheists point out that they are loved and they do love, they often change their tone, "We're referring to a different kind of love". If that's true, then let's not make atheism look to be something in which one lives a miserable, unhappy, life.

Thank you for that answer, and so then you are well and I am elated over this. Love is this pure as I see it:
[h=3]1 Corinthians 13:4-13[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. [SUP]5 [/SUP]It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part and we prophesy in part, [SUP]10 [/SUP]but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. [SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

When one has this type of love, then one has the creator of all.

What I see you and others are against is the hypocrisy of many acclaimed Christian, that you see clearly out for themselves, I see it too and have been it in the past, no more I pray no more
How can anyone claim it if they do not live it as this verse here clearly shows it:

[h=3]Luke 6:32[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]32 [/SUP]“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.

This includes all groups, that segregate as in all over in Christendom. So you know them by their fruits
I see as well

 

[homwardbound]

If man came from dust why is there still dust?

And to the dust shall man return.

 

[homwardbound]

If most Americans come from European decent, why are there still Europeans?

That came from the tower of Babel the separation as man was building the tower in effort to reach God and kill God. Nimrod was the person behind this scenario.

A Joke for you. Man is mad at God, yelling first kicked out of the garden, now In-laws? shaking his fist

 

[homwardbound]

I would say that the physical is for the most part objective whereas spiritual can only be subjective. Thoughts can be tracked to electrical activity between Nurons within the brain thereby making them physical. The meme of an idea like a virus can be spread but will never be identical between two entities. This is becuase thoughts are related to perception and we all percieve the world in slightly different ways. Therefore, when the person dies, their thoughts die with them. But ideas which evolved from those thoughts can be spread.

Thank you and so here you showed me as a man thinks so is he. love it
for I personally know that I can't be angry without angry thoughts, and you?

 

[deepthought]

Hi Guys

Sorry to go slightly off topic but I just had something occur which I thought good to comment.

As I sit here in my home office, a saw a bright light shoot across the clouded skies of London. Upon looking out of my window, the city was quiet, no birds sang and the air was still. What followed was the Sound, distant at first, which seemed as if a thousand cannons had released as one. I leaned back in a saw immediately a book which told stories of such events and what they could supernaturally be.

Now in this modern era, I know that light was the electricity of a lightning strike which is caused by charged particles in the atmosphere. The sound, thunder. A sudden massive expansion of the atmosphere around the lightning which resulted in a vast pressure wave of air radiating outwards. This sound reflects on most all structures it hits which results in a reverberation. The book, was Harry Potter and is a work of fiction which people around the world hang on every word of and some people even want to believe is real.

Now there are 2 points here.

2000 years ago. people did not know what lightning, sound or electricity were. People are afraid of what they know. So people invented a story to explain this and make sense of it. In different parts of the world there are different stories. Over time, these stories change.

Secondly, I read that series of books and found them entertaining and thought provoking, but I could never understand people believing in them. People have even written lots of fan fiction style spin offs but with their creative ideas and opinions. Now say there were to be a horrific event across the world. 1000 years from now, people find some copies of the books and some fan fiction mostly intact. They fill in the gaps and arrange them so they make sense. People start to believe in the mystic possibilities of the old world and the gospels of the great saviour Harry Potter.

Now. This is silly. You would not expect me to believe these tales. But for me as an atheist, the bible is the same thing. It is a book with a collection of stories, written by men and I can not see any reason to believe that a God had any effect on this book. Don't get me wrong, it has some really nice ideas for living your life as a good person, but equally it has some morally ambiguous parts also.

Sorry for the digress, but it came to mind and i thought I would share.

Equally, this does not effect the respect i hold for people regardless of that faith until such time as they do something to damage that respect. Be theist, be good, be atheist, be good, that is what is important.

 

[Percepi]

That came from the tower of Babel the separation as man was building the tower in effort to reach God and kill God. Nimrod was the person behind this scenario.

A Joke for you. Man is mad at God, yelling first kicked out of the garden, now In-laws? shaking his fist

I feel you completely ignored both my question and the point.

To answer your question, which is evidence that you need to study evolution (because you clearly don't understand it), we didn't evolve from current apes. We evolved from ape like ancestors. The reason apes aren't evolving into humans is because they live in a different environment than early humans did, and they live different lives.

Evolution results in branching species that evolve away from each other, not into each other (unless the species is already very closely related - humans and other apes are long past such a point).

Please, try to keep the context of the question in mind when you answer. I asked the question to examine the fact that groups can diverge without one group changing or disappearing. The fact man evolved from apes doesn't mean apes have to stop existing.

 

[deepthought]

Thank you and so here you showed me as a man thinks so is he. love it
for I personally know that I can't be angry without angry thoughts, and you?

I thought you may find this interesting:

People feel angry when they sense that they or someone they care about has been offended, when they are certain about the nature and cause of the angering event, when they are certain someone else is responsible, and when they feel they can still influence the situation or cope with it.[SUP][21][/SUP] For instance, if a person's car is damaged, they will feel angry if someone else did it (e.g. another driver rear-ended it), but will feel sadness instead if it was caused by situational forces (e.g. a hailstorm) or guilt and shame if they were personally responsible (e.g. he crashed into a wall out of momentary carelessness).
Usually, those who experience anger explain its arousal as a result of "what has happened to them" and in most cases the described provocations occur immediately before the anger experience. Such explanations confirm the illusion that anger has a discrete external cause. The angry person usually finds the cause of their anger in an intentional, personal, and controllable aspect of another person's behavior. This explanation, however, is based on the intuitions of the angry person who experiences a loss in self-monitoring capacity and objective observability as a result of their emotion. Anger can be of multicausal origin, some of which may be remote events, but people rarely find more than one cause for their anger.[SUP][10][/SUP] According to Novaco, "Anger experiences are embedded or nested within an environmental-temporal context. Disturbances that may not have involved anger at the outset leave residues that are not readily recognized but that operate as a lingering backdrop for focal provocations (of anger)."[SUP][10][/SUP] According to Encyclopædia Britannica, an internal infection can cause pain which in turn can activate anger.[SUP][22]

The physiology of anger is quite consistent across the natural world and is not limited to humans. So my angry thoughts are more a side effect of a series of chemical reactions.[/SUP]

 

[Percepi]

I just wanted to post and I will have to look this up again, but a few months ago I saw a special on three major colleges that are doing an all out study and working on a report because they found major loop holes in the hole evolution theory. I will look more of it up, and can't wait for their results to see what loop holes they found to find it false. I never believed in evolution, but I always get excited every time a study or scientist come out to prove a former theory or scientist wrong, or at least come up with another theory showing holes or issues that were wrong in the previous. Funny how this seems to happen a lot, yet they still try to quote a theory as being fact, hahaha !!!

We tend to surround ourselves with people we agree with. People who don't want to accept the theory of evolution will generally turn to creationist sources - shying away from sources that support the theory of evolution. These people are subjected to, what appears to be, a large number of creation scientists who are ignored. But when you study evolution and you look at all the different scientists involved in the study, you realize that the number of creationist scientists who are "ignored" are very, very, very, very, few.

So, no, there isn't a lot of research from scientists that tries to debunk evolution. It's very, very, uncommon.

It's like living in a small country town. The biggest gathering of people stems from church service. Out of the 300 people who live in you town, 250 may be creationists. In such an environment, it's going to seem like there are a lot of creationists out there who are unheard. But when you go to a city, there might be thousands of people, most of whom accept the theory of evolution.

You're only looking at a small community of people. It seems big because you've never allowed yourself to study the subject from a supportive point of view. The only source of knowledge you have of evolution comes from creationists. This is unfortunate for both of us because you are ignorant of what evolution actually suggests, what evidence is out there, and the insanely vast amounts of sources that support evolutionary theory. It's all downplayed by creationists. The number of creation scientists, for example, is uplayed a great deal. This is why it's difficult for us to prove the theory of evolution to you, because everything we present to you has been downplayed by creationists.

If you're willing to learn, study evolution from pro-evolution sources. Even if you don't accept the theory by the end of your studies, you should at least have an understanding of what evolution ACTUALLY suggests.

 

[phil112]

We tend to surround ourselves with people we agree with..............................

This is precisely why there are so many different churches/religions. This is also the precise reason for different "races". After the tower of Babel, when God dispersed people, over time they kept to those that looked liked them/agreed with them, etc. Human nature to want to be around someone like look yourself, whether in appearance or thought, and both is even better. Look around you and it is evident everywhere. Democrats, republicans, conservatives, liberals, skinheads, satanists.......and yet it is politically improper to "profile" someone. That is an insane law.
Better not go there, this discussion would heat up quickly.

 

[deepthought]

I just wanted to post and I will have to look this up again, but a few months ago I saw a special on three major colleges that are doing an all out study and working on a report because they found major loop holes in the hole evolution theory. I will look more of it up, and can't wait for their results to see what loop holes they found to find it false. I never believed in evolution, but I always get excited every time a study or scientist come out to prove a former theory or scientist wrong, or at least come up with another theory showing holes or issues that were wrong in the previous. Funny how this seems to happen a lot, yet they still try to quote a theory as being fact, hahaha !!!

This is of course interesting and if the science is genuine and can stand up to scrutiny then i'm sure the scientific community will respect that. The good thing about the scientific method is that it does allow itself to be wrong, to be subject to investigation and challenge and most importantly, change.

Evidence, can offer alternative possibilities, bring doubt upon previous evidence or substantiate an existing theory or model. To date, there is a lot more evidance across the board to suggest Darwin's proposed model and even current genetics where are replicable in the modern labs support this. After all. DNA was unknown in the times of the Gospels or Darwin, but knowing what we know about DNA, which is more likely.

 

[Cycel]

I just wanted to post and I will have to look this up again, but a few months ago I saw a special on three major colleges that are doing an all out study and working on a report because they found major loop holes in the hole evolution theory. I will look more of it up, and can't wait for their results to see what loop holes they found to find it false. I never believed in evolution,

I have never seen anything that conflicts with evolution.

... but I always get excited every time a study or scientist come out to prove a former theory or scientist wrong, or at least come up with another theory showing holes or issues that were wrong in the previous. Funny how this seems to happen a lot, yet they still try to quote a theory as being fact, hahaha !!!

Please, give me an example. What theory in evolution has been proved wrong?

Kenneth, you've already shown me that you don't understand what a scientific theory is (unless you've corrected your misunderstanding since we last talked), and your last sentence seems demonstrates this again. I've tried helping you out with this. If you want to have any success in criticizing the scientific position, and be taken seriously, you must at least use the language of science correctly, otherwise it will look as though you don't know what you are talking about.

When I first visited religious forums some members were good enough to explain religious language that I misunderstood. If we are going to discus these issues it becomes necessary to correct misunderstandings and whether you want to accept evolution or not is irrelevant in this. It is still necessary that everyone understand the language and use it correctly so that we are all on the same page.

 

[Jda016]

Hi Guys

Sorry to go slightly off topic but I just had something occur which I thought good to comment.

As I sit here in my home office, a saw a bright light shoot across the clouded skies of London. Upon looking out of my window, the city was quiet, no birds sang and the air was still. What followed was the Sound, distant at first, which seemed as if a thousand cannons had released as one. I leaned back in a saw immediately a book which told stories of such events and what they could supernaturally be.

Now in this modern era, I know that light was the electricity of a lightning strike which is caused by charged particles in the atmosphere. The sound, thunder. A sudden massive expansion of the atmosphere around the lightning which resulted in a vast pressure wave of air radiating outwards. This sound reflects on most all structures it hits which results in a reverberation. The book, was Harry Potter and is a work of fiction which people around the world hang on every word of and some people even want to believe is real.

Now there are 2 points here.

2000 years ago. people did not know what lightning, sound or electricity were. People are afraid of what they know. So people invented a story to explain this and make sense of it. In different parts of the world there are different stories. Over time, these stories change.

Secondly, I read that series of books and found them entertaining and thought provoking, but I could never understand people believing in them. People have even written lots of fan fiction style spin offs but with their creative ideas and opinions. Now say there were to be a horrific event across the world. 1000 years from now, people find some copies of the books and some fan fiction mostly intact. They fill in the gaps and arrange them so they make sense. People start to believe in the mystic possibilities of the old world and the gospels of the great saviour Harry Potter.

Now. This is silly. You would not expect me to believe these tales. But for me as an atheist, the bible is the same thing. It is a book with a collection of stories, written by men and I can not see any reason to believe that a God had any effect on this book. Don't get me wrong, it has some really nice ideas for living your life as a good person, but equally it has some morally ambiguous parts also.

Sorry for the digress, but it came to mind and i thought I would share.

Equally, this does not effect the respect i hold for people regardless of that faith until such time as they do something to damage that respect. Be theist, be good, be atheist, be good, that is what is important.

Well you might be right if Harry Potter had hundreds of verifiable fulfilled prophecies, or if Harry potter was written by dozen of people across hundreds and hundreds of years but managed to still have a unified theme or common goal it was pointing towards,(Christ) or if There were hundreds of thousands of testimonies of people being healed, delivered, and miracles in Harry Potter's name.

I know you see the Bible like any other mythological work, but it doesn't take much study to see that it is the most unique book in all of History. Not simply because people believe in it, but because there are so many unique facets to it that it stands out from all other written works.

Id also argue that the Bible wasn't written to simply explain a phenomena like lightning or other phenomena, it was written to show the law of God and God's fulfillment of that law through Jesus Christ.

However, DoseofReality said something important to me. He told me that I believe, because I have faith. The prophecies, healings, miracles, etc give support to what I believe, but Faith came first. He is right.

I could show you every prophecy that has been fulfilled from the Bible that has verifiable proof to this day, but you would simply excuse every one of them as happenstance or coincidence, even if I showed you a ton of them. The problem is you do not have faith and faith I can not give you.

 

[Cycel]

Well you might be right if Harry Potter had hundreds of verifiable fulfilled prophecies, or if Harry potter was written by dozen of people across hundreds and hundreds of years but managed to still have a unified theme or common goal it was pointing towards,(Christ) or if There were hundreds of thousands of testimonies of people being healed, delivered, and miracles in Harry Potter's name.

I see a different biblical reality. There are numerous non-canonical Christian texts that did not make it into the Bible. Those that appear in the New Testament were deliberately selected because they fit a pattern, fit a theme. The writings in the Christian Bible were hand picked out of perhaps hundreds of writings to create a religious work that was meaningful to Orthodox Christians and all others were rejected. If you don't know what I am talking about you might have a look at Charles Freeman's AD 381: Heretics, Pagans and the Christian State.

 

[deepthought]

Well you might be right if Harry Potter had hundreds of verifiable fulfilled prophecies, or if Harry potter was written by dozen of people across hundreds and hundreds of years but managed to still have a unified theme or common goal it was pointing towards,(Christ) or if There were hundreds of thousands of testimonies of people being healed, delivered, and miracles in Harry Potter's name.

I know you see the Bible like any other mythological work, but it doesn't take much study to see that it is the most unique book in all of History. Not simply because people believe in it, but because there are so many unique facets to it that it stands out from all other written works.

Id also argue that the Bible wasn't written to simply explain a phenomena like lightning or other phenomena, it was written to show the law of God and God's fulfillment of that law through Jesus Christ.

However, DoseofReality said something important to me. He told me that I believe, because I have faith. The prophecies, healings, miracles, etc give support to what I believe, but Faith came first. He is right.

I could show you every prophecy that has been fulfilled from the Bible that has verifiable proof to this day, but you would simply excuse every one of them as happenstance or coincidence, even if I showed you a ton of them. The problem is you do not have faith and faith I can not give you.

Hi JDA.

I would actually be very interested in seeing this evidence. Could you post any prophies and evidence which arn't subjective?

Many thanks.

G

 

[Cycel]

We tend to surround ourselves with people we agree with...

This is precisely why there are so many different churches/religions.

There appears to have been many Christian perspectives that evolved after the time of Jesus, but in the 4th century all were suppressed accept one. After the fall of the Western Roman Empire the Orthodox church, so named by its own members, split into the Byzantine and the Roman Catholic churches. As we know the Catholic Church, in the West, ruthlessly suppressed all heresies until one, led by Martin Luther, escaped its control. That heretical group, calling itself Protestant, repeatedly fractured over the following centuries, and each fracture in turn fractured until today there are hundreds of disparate Christian groups.

So, the question becomes, how does one New Testament, which contains no internal discrepancies – according to those who call themselves Christian – give rise to so many groups that disagree with one another over its message? Imagine how many Christian groups must have existed in the first centuries before the New Testament came into existence.