Hey, this is an update on this long-time argument. First off, for BenFTW I have yet to read your long link but I will eventually and get back to you (Im going to pm you but first, im going to post this).
Below is my argument. My fiance is translating it to Korean and asking a pastor in Korea about it. Im curious as to his perspective. For anyone who wants to make an input on this debate, please, read everything first. I have acquired numerous more Bible quotes to prove my perspective. This is exactly what I am sending to the pastor [this is the english version though]. I am just waiting for my fiance to come back online [internet is bad from Canada-Korea]. So the last statement on the Book Of life has no Bible quotes because I assumed as a Pastor he would know about the book of life. However, you can find quotes on the book of life here : Exodus 32:32; Daniel 12:1; Luke 10:10; Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12; 20:15. They are in OT and NT proving that the new covenant does not disregard the book of life.
Now without further suspense, take the time to read all this and enjoy. It should take you about 10 minutes or longer.
Hey there Pastor. First off I would like to say thanks for taking the time to listen to my question. It is more of curiosity of your point of view on this subject. So my main question is this:
Do works decide whether you go to Heaven or Hell?
My perspective on this is yes, good works decide whether you go to Heaven or Hell. Now before I even start on my perspective, I will quote a verse that many use to prove this perspective wrong:
Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Now what this is saying, is that a specific amount of works, say 100 pounds of works are not required for you to get into Heaven. I completely agree with this. There is no pre-set amount of works required to enter Heaven. However, lets break down the wording here very carefully. It says “For by grace ye saved through faith”. So in this instance it says “through faith” meaning faith is required in order to enter Heaven by grace. It isn’t just grace alone, faith is required. Now lets read Ephesians 2:10 and Matthew 5:16
Ephesians 2:10
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
So it is saying there that we should indeed do good works. There is another Bible verse I would like to quote that correlates with the verse above:
Matthew 5:16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
So as for now we can understand that we are instructed to do good works. We also know that by grace and faith alone do we enter Heaven. We also know that a preset number of works do not enter us into Heaven. So, are works really required then? Yes. The reason being is that works are a testament of faith. Here are the verses below to prove my point:
James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:26
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
2 Timothy 3:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
So what those verses are saying is that Good works are a part of faith. It is true in Ephesians 2:8-9 that by faith and grace alone do we enter Heaven. But just like how Ephesians 2:10 says that we should do good works, it also states in the verses above that Good works are a testament of your faith. Now I am going to show verses that talk about how there can be bad works compared to good works. This is a very important part of my perspective as it relates to other things I am going to bring up. Remember, as it shows above works are a part of your faith. Whether you do good works or bad works shows your faith. The verses below are about doing bad works:
Titus 1:16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
James 4:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Now the verses I will show next are about the consequences of not doing good works. They talk about how people who do not do good works will go to hell. They are below:
Matthew 25:31-46
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 7:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Now specifically about Matthew 7:21-23 some have argued that they were not true Christians. To prove that wrong, I would like to quote Mark 16:16-18:
Mark 16:16-18
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Therefore in Mark 16:16-18, it shows how they were true Christians in Matthew 7:21-23. When we read it understanding that, it proves that they were Christians, but because they did not do good deeds they were sent to hell. This correlates with earlier verses that talk about how you should do the will of the Father, also it correlates with the verse James 4:17 that talks about doing good.
So to recap, I have shown how works are attributed to your faith, how Good works and Bad works exist, and can decide whether you go to Heaven or Hell. I have also shown how we are instructed to do good works, and the consequences of not doing good works.
Now I would like to show just 2 logical arguments against what has been said to me that are against the perspective that works are required.
In conclusion, I have shown you all the proof that defines my perspective on works mattering. I have shown you the main argument that people use to prove me wrong, which I also used to prove myself right (Ephesians 2:8-9). I have shown how we are instructed to do good deeds at several parts in the Bible, as well as showed how works are in direct correlation with your faith. I also showed how in the Bible Christians who were real Christians (Mark 16:16-18) were sent to hell because of them not doing works. So in conclusion, my understanding is that works define your faith. A homosexual who commits homosexual acts but has faith in Jesus Christ will not enter Heaven because they are doing bad works and not repenting for them at all. The same thing with a murderer who does not stop killing people but has faith in Jesus Christ and does not repent will not enter Heaven. I am very curious as to your perspective on this Pastor, because I have had many long debates with fellow Christians on this issue. My perspective is that this belief of works not mattering is due to Calvinistic influence on Christianity. If you disagree with me, I would appreciate it if you can outline why you disagree, prove your perspective with Bible verses, as well as disproving all the Bible verses I have supplied. Thank you and God bless you.
- David Moorehead
Below is my argument. My fiance is translating it to Korean and asking a pastor in Korea about it. Im curious as to his perspective. For anyone who wants to make an input on this debate, please, read everything first. I have acquired numerous more Bible quotes to prove my perspective. This is exactly what I am sending to the pastor [this is the english version though]. I am just waiting for my fiance to come back online [internet is bad from Canada-Korea]. So the last statement on the Book Of life has no Bible quotes because I assumed as a Pastor he would know about the book of life. However, you can find quotes on the book of life here : Exodus 32:32; Daniel 12:1; Luke 10:10; Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12; 20:15. They are in OT and NT proving that the new covenant does not disregard the book of life.
Now without further suspense, take the time to read all this and enjoy. It should take you about 10 minutes or longer.
Hey there Pastor. First off I would like to say thanks for taking the time to listen to my question. It is more of curiosity of your point of view on this subject. So my main question is this:
Do works decide whether you go to Heaven or Hell?
My perspective on this is yes, good works decide whether you go to Heaven or Hell. Now before I even start on my perspective, I will quote a verse that many use to prove this perspective wrong:
Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Now what this is saying, is that a specific amount of works, say 100 pounds of works are not required for you to get into Heaven. I completely agree with this. There is no pre-set amount of works required to enter Heaven. However, lets break down the wording here very carefully. It says “For by grace ye saved through faith”. So in this instance it says “through faith” meaning faith is required in order to enter Heaven by grace. It isn’t just grace alone, faith is required. Now lets read Ephesians 2:10 and Matthew 5:16
Ephesians 2:10
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
So it is saying there that we should indeed do good works. There is another Bible verse I would like to quote that correlates with the verse above:
Matthew 5:16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
So as for now we can understand that we are instructed to do good works. We also know that by grace and faith alone do we enter Heaven. We also know that a preset number of works do not enter us into Heaven. So, are works really required then? Yes. The reason being is that works are a testament of faith. Here are the verses below to prove my point:
James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:26
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
2 Timothy 3:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
So what those verses are saying is that Good works are a part of faith. It is true in Ephesians 2:8-9 that by faith and grace alone do we enter Heaven. But just like how Ephesians 2:10 says that we should do good works, it also states in the verses above that Good works are a testament of your faith. Now I am going to show verses that talk about how there can be bad works compared to good works. This is a very important part of my perspective as it relates to other things I am going to bring up. Remember, as it shows above works are a part of your faith. Whether you do good works or bad works shows your faith. The verses below are about doing bad works:
Titus 1:16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
James 4:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Now the verses I will show next are about the consequences of not doing good works. They talk about how people who do not do good works will go to hell. They are below:
Matthew 25:31-46
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 7:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Now specifically about Matthew 7:21-23 some have argued that they were not true Christians. To prove that wrong, I would like to quote Mark 16:16-18:
Mark 16:16-18
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Therefore in Mark 16:16-18, it shows how they were true Christians in Matthew 7:21-23. When we read it understanding that, it proves that they were Christians, but because they did not do good deeds they were sent to hell. This correlates with earlier verses that talk about how you should do the will of the Father, also it correlates with the verse James 4:17 that talks about doing good.
So to recap, I have shown how works are attributed to your faith, how Good works and Bad works exist, and can decide whether you go to Heaven or Hell. I have also shown how we are instructed to do good works, and the consequences of not doing good works.
Now I would like to show just 2 logical arguments against what has been said to me that are against the perspective that works are required.
- We can not save ourselves, but if we say works get us into Heaven then we are saving ourselves : This is not true. We cant save ourselves that is correct. However, by grace and faith we are saved. Works are a part of faith. Therefore you are not saving yourself, you are just showing your faith by doing the will of your Father in Heaven. Also, you have to be careful with this argument. God calls on us and gives us signs to show he exists. We have to choose whether or not we believe in God or not. God does not force us to. We have free will. Also, if we had no choice, fallen angels wouldn’t exist because nobody would have free will.
- But it says that by works themselves you can not get into Heaven: I just reposted this question here to reiterate it. There is not a pre-numbered amount of works to get you into Heaven. However, faith and grace gets you into Heaven. Therefore, without good works you will go to hell because works are attributed to your faith. So say for example you claim to know Jesus yet you do only bad works, you will go to hell. Can a murderer enter Heaven even though he claims that he loves God and doesn’t repent for all his killings? (1. Corinthians 6:9-10)
In conclusion, I have shown you all the proof that defines my perspective on works mattering. I have shown you the main argument that people use to prove me wrong, which I also used to prove myself right (Ephesians 2:8-9). I have shown how we are instructed to do good deeds at several parts in the Bible, as well as showed how works are in direct correlation with your faith. I also showed how in the Bible Christians who were real Christians (Mark 16:16-18) were sent to hell because of them not doing works. So in conclusion, my understanding is that works define your faith. A homosexual who commits homosexual acts but has faith in Jesus Christ will not enter Heaven because they are doing bad works and not repenting for them at all. The same thing with a murderer who does not stop killing people but has faith in Jesus Christ and does not repent will not enter Heaven. I am very curious as to your perspective on this Pastor, because I have had many long debates with fellow Christians on this issue. My perspective is that this belief of works not mattering is due to Calvinistic influence on Christianity. If you disagree with me, I would appreciate it if you can outline why you disagree, prove your perspective with Bible verses, as well as disproving all the Bible verses I have supplied. Thank you and God bless you.
- David Moorehead
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