Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Spokenpassage]

The receiving grace through faith produces works, that's genuine faith.

Not, faith and works produce grace.

 

[SeaBass]

salvation doesn't require good works to obtain it but the works are the result of a heart changed by Jesus's love, it's how we recognize the born again since they live in the fruits of the spirit.

Obedient works in believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism are required to OBTAIN savlation, and obedience, Rev 2:10 and good works Eph 2:10 are necessary AFTER one is sved to maintain that salvation.

 

[SeaBass]

even if they do not agree with this.

Jesus said, "it is finished" Before the thief died. Thus his sins were already paid for.

When Jesus said "it is finished" He was speaking about the works God gave Him to do here on earth. Jesus finished His work in building a pathway to salvation for man through Himself. Now it is man's work to take that pathway by obedience.....Heb 5:9 Christ is the author of svlvation to alll then that obey Him.

 

[notuptome]

Obedient works in believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism are required to OBTAIN savlation, and obedience, Rev 2:10 and good works Eph 2:10 are necessary AFTER one is sved to maintain that salvation.

This is false and misleading doctrine. It is the way that seems right to man but the end thereof is destruction.

Salvation cannot be earned nor can it be kept by mans own merits.

Grace excludes any possible contribution by man. God has done it all and done it with perfection that man cannot even imagine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

Also called redemption.

Romans 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Corinthians 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—

Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace

Colossians 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Faith only/no works is NOT in a single verse lsted above...it is being imagined into those verses.

 

[notuptome]

When Jesus said "it is finished" He was speaking about the works God gave Him to do here on earth. Jesus finished His work in building a pathway to salvation for man through Himself. Now it is man's work to take that pathway by obedience.....Heb 5:9 Christ is the author of svlvation to alll then that obey Him.

You are giving your opinion on "it is finished". Please note the Christ did not say "I am finished". It is the height of hypocrisy to say that man could have any part in the restoration of our souls to God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[cfultz3]

"Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone"

How can faith be alone and not alone at the same time?

Intrestingly you post "Worship is works, prayer is works, waiting for the Lord is works, and so on down the line"

The point I am rasing in this thread is can a man go thru his entire life and NEVER do any type of work at all and still be saved?

So can a Christian NOT do the works of worshipping, praying, waiting for the Lord, and other works yet still be saved?

You are basically asking, 'Can a Christian walk contrary to the leading of the Spirit and still be saved (walking on the narrow path)?' ..... No, they cannot have two masters at the same time.

The refute to that is that if they are being led by the Spirit then they would want to hearken to the Spirit....However, if they are being led by the Spirit, then they are still free willed beings having a choice to either follow or not. And hence, the warning in Hebrews to watch over each other so that a heart of stubbornness would not be found in us.

 

[SeaBass]

yep. Our freedom was purchased (redeemed) By price.

Amazing people want to mock this payment by trying to add their own works into the price of redemption.

BenFTW gave me this analogy:

Not a good enough analogy? Let me think of another.

I give you a car and hand you the keys. Its a gift, it is now yours. You upon the first of the month of next month receive a bill however. Its for a loan payment from the bank, so that the car could be purchased. Now, you have this new nice car, this gift, but you have to pay it off. Is it really a free gift if you have to work to keep it? Wasn't really all that it was cracked up to be, if you have to work for it? The car really isn't yours, not until you fully work to pay it off.

Evidently you pay the price yourself.

 

[Apostol2013]

But without faith nothing is possible works are good but remember the works are not yours they are of Jesus our redeemer our guiding light

 

[cfultz3]

The receiving grace through faith produces works, that's genuine faith.

Not, faith and works produce grace.

If you would hearken unto the Voice of the Lord and not render stubborn your heart......

 

[Apostol2013]

And to add it is jesus that saves but you must die that he may live for you

 

[SeaBass]

My position is that after a person gets saved and becomes a Christian, he should do good works and he should walk in the light, and he should walk sanctified and holy.

But his salvation is not based on whether or not he does those things; but rather his salvation is totally and completely based on the atoning sacrifice and work which the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross of Calvary. Christ said it is finished. His blood atonement is what paid for our sins.

You say AFTER one is sved he "SHOULD" do good works and he should walk in the light, and he should walk sanctified and holy.

The issue I am raising is can he NOT do those works yst still be saved???

He purchased our eternal redemption with His precious blood (Acts 20:28; Eph. 1:7; & Col. 1:14).

Well if a Christian sees another Christian in need; and he is able to help that Christian who is in great need, well then he should help him out. But even if he decides not to help him out; that Christian is still saved. Why? Because his salvation is not dependent upon his good works. He may be required to answer for it at the Judgment Seat of Christ, But he is not going to lose his salvation.




Also lets have a look at Matthew 25:32:



Matthew 25:32 KJV
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:


This Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats is NOT the Judgment Seat of Christ.

The Judgment Seat of Christ takes place after the Rapture of the Body of Christ. And it is a Judgment that only Christians will be present at. And the nature of this judgment is to try ever Christian's work by fire to see what sort it is (1 Cor. 3:11-15). This is to determine the level of reward and Millennial inheritance each Christian will be given. Most likely; there will be some Christians who have no reward and no millennial inheritance.


The Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46 will take place at Christ's Second Advent where He comes back to the earth to judge the Gentile nations and to set up His Millennial Kingdom.

At the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats; both saved and lost people are present. The nature of this judgment is to determine who gets to enter into Christ's Millennial Kingdom for the 1,000 year Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ. The test and criteria for a Gentile getting to enter into the Millennial Kingdom is whether or not he helped and took care of Christ's brethren; the Jews, during the time of Jacob's trouble (7 year tribulation period).

Not according to Matt 25. God pre-ordained Christians wallk in good works, Eph 2:10 so CHristians have NO CHOICE in the matter but MUST do good works.

1 Jn 3:17 "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?"

 

[BenFTW]

BenFTW gave me this analogy:

Not a good enough analogy? Let me think of another.

I give you a car and hand you the keys. Its a gift, it is now yours. You upon the first of the month of next month receive a bill however. Its for a loan payment from the bank, so that the car could be purchased. Now, you have this new nice car, this gift, but you have to pay it off. Is it really a free gift if you have to work to keep it? Wasn't really all that it was cracked up to be, if you have to work for it? The car really isn't yours, not until you fully work to pay it off.

Evidently you pay the price yourself.

That was said to show you the error of your doctrine, not to enforce it. The point is, thats what you are arguing, but biblically, that isnt scriptural. Jesus gave you a good and free gift and you are pulling out your wallet saying, "$5?" How many good works are enough to fully pay for the price of His death on the cross? Its an insult to Christ! Rest in His finished work.

 

[JGIG]

I'm not...................... but I have to wonder how many saved Christians have become sanctified Christians?

10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.​

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (from Heb. 10)
​

As believers we are sanctified as well as are being sanctified.

It is not for us to wonder about the state of sanctification of other believers. We are to love them and build them up in who they are in Christ:

For those of us who aren’t dealing with the big, obvious sins (other than spiritual pride, arrogance, and judgementalism, that is), we need to be actively aware of the struggling believer’s secure position in Christ in the midst of their condition in the flesh. That active awareness should translate into gently lifting up those who struggle with their condition in the flesh, establishing them in the reality of their position in Christ, reminding them of the Throne of Grace that they/we can approach in Christ in their/our time of need. That’s talking about help when it comes to sinning, folks, and the Throne spoken of is not a throne of judgement (from the Law), but the Throne of Grace!

Apparently, the Thessalonians were really good at this:

​

1 Thessalonians 5:11-24
11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
12Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. 14And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else.

16Be joyful always; 17pray continually; 18give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

19Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good.

22Avoid every kind of evil.

23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.​

It is important to understand that the Gospel does not place any condition on the wounded and broken except to believe on the One God sent. The command to love one another is ultimately fulfilled through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as He produces His Fruit through us – we bear that Fruit; it is a by-product of life in Him. Our sins - past, present, and future, along with the sins of the whole world, were paid for at the Cross, Christ Jesus having taken the wrath of God upon Himself to spare us that wrath. If we receive that forgiveness, we receive the Life of Christ, sealed with His Holy Spirit, adopted as sons through Christ Jesus and co-heirs with Him, Who then begins His work of healing and restoration in us.

Dear Believer, read through the letters to the early Body of Christ.

Read them out loud.

Discover who God says you are in Christ.​

Lift up those areas of weakness and sinning in your life – “Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.” (Hebrews 4:14-16)

Grace recognizes that for a lot of people, it’s not so neat and tidy; it can take longer for some than for others, for all - a lifetime, and it can be messy. But where sin increased, grace super abounded, and God is faithful:

May God Himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless
at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The one who calls you is faithful and He will do it!

​

-JGIG

 

[SeaBass]

You don't know in what time you live, do you?

You may continue to seek to condemn. How can someone who is 49 years old not have the experience yet to understand what is going on? What is your purpose of condemnation? Do you seek to glorify yourself?

No. The Christian does not earn salvation washing cars! Neither does the Christian earn salvation by preaching Christ to all the nations! Neither does the Christian earn salvation by printing Bibles! Neither does the Christian earn salvation by condemning those in whose shoes one has not been!

A Christian MUST provide for his own house or he has denied the faith and is worse than infidel. So the work of providing of his own house is necessary work to maintain his savlation or else he will be lost being a denier of the fiath and worse than an infidel. Will you argue deniers of the faith and infidels will be saved? Do you realize faith only requires you to take this rediculous unbiblcal position?


Again, I have NOT argued that salvation can be earned, that is a false strawman argument being offered up by those on unbiblcal side of the issue. In an earlier post, I gave the example were I gave one a car FREE of charge out of my good grace but all she had to do to get this free car is to the works of coming to my office to get the title and keys and then go to the car dealer and get the car. Is her doing the works of coming to my office and getting the keys and tiltle and then going to the car dealer to get the free car mean she is earning that free car? In no way whatsoever, those works are conditions place upon the free gift and do not, cannot earn that free gift.

Will this stopped the false strawman argument that SeaBass is claiming salvation is earned? No, for that false argument is all the faith only proponents have.

How the devil has a grip on this world! Now because the devil has made so many laws, and society has become so dark, and difficult for many, and many are still bound to traditions of men, believing these traditions to be of God, but they are not; therefore do these people not understand that the devil manipulates the environment that Christians may begin to persecute each other of those things which are very difficult!

What then is the purpose of being a missionary in third world countries wherein they have nothing to provide for themselves, but only that which is given to them by the Christians and other aid services, if there be any? Are Christian missionaries only there to pour hot coals upon the heads of the heathens? Or are they there to share the knowledge and wisdom of the Lord that those people may be saved?

And then would you condemn any in the rich countries? Let me assure you, the poor in the rich countries are worse off than the poor in the poor countries. The poor in the rich countries are separated by technology and many laws, whereas the poor in the poor countries still have their communities. Though they may be up against firearms, the poor of the rich countries must face the evil fire and assault of those who consider themselves righteous and earners of their own wages.

And those with sickness, physical or mental, these are manipulated by society and discarded by those in the faith, by those same who claim, "I work, I must." One will always use the law to justify their actions and to make themselves feel as though they are earners of their wages. I will remind the hypocrites once again, do you cause the sun to rise in the morning? Do you cause it to rain? Do you cause the food to grow? To you reap it? Did you sow it? Did you create your job for yourself or was it offered to you? Did you build the building of the company at which you applied? Did you create all the systems by which you created and filled out your application? Did you create your job? Have you mastered your job all by yourself, or is your mastery the image of the shadow of the obviousness of what job should be done? Have you given yourself feet or hands? Did you print the money? Did you create the banks? The credit system? What have you done to earn what you claim to earn? Did you give birth to yourself? Did you write the Holy Bible? Did you speak the Word before the Word was revealed to you, or before the Word was written upon your heart?

If not, then upon which premise do you take one line of text and condemn all of humanity with it?

Why do you not justify Christians with the law instead of persecute them?

Why do you not consider what it is to provide? Why do you not consider what food is? Why do you not consider that we are told that though we may forsake our family for the Lord, we shall in no wise lose our reward? Why do you not consider that some are sick physically, some are sick mentally, some are in depression, some are still learning, and that the enemy is hard at work? Why do you consider nothing besides that which you decide to use to justify yourself?

Do you not know that you have earned nothing?

There are many who work that are not willing to work. They clock in and receive a pay check. They perform their jobs halfway, but know they get away with the rest. There are those who manipulate their employment to their own end. There are those who claim they need not master any further than what they have. There are those who do none of those things, and yet boast in that they do well. There are many that do naughty things to provide. Which is worse? To have employment doing that which is wrong to provide, or to forego that and to learn in what manner one should provide? Do you think that these are providing for their family? And what offense is it to you? How are you harmed? Is it not those people that feel they have little to offer financially the same people who complain that another is not working? So then their complaints are about money, not about God. And are you harmed because one's salvation is at stake? Then reason and love with them and share with them and find their heart. Do not condemn them. If someone completely refuses your help, refuses to do all things, refuses any love you offer, believes that all should serve them, and that they should do nothing, and they seek no reference from the Lord, or any such thing, even then, what can you do then? Will complaining provide for them? And who is hurt by their manipulation? Who can see it? It is enough to say, "I do not support your faulty thinking, and I would rather not interact with you as a friend until you are willing to hear me and work together to find what you can do."

Do you not discern that the reason so many worked beforehand was because they thought that those works bought their salvation?! Do you not discern that the reason Timothy spoke to that end is because when people were relieved of their bondage, they believed they were relieved from their work all together? Therefore, those to whom Timothy spoke believed just as you believe! How do you not see the error in your thinking?

For those who work the job understanding that the job to provide for the family is not the job unto salvation, then those same may find peace in their work, or their transition of work, or the circumstances which they cannot control, and the pain they suffer then should not be doubled upon them, even if they speak no pain, but seemingly arrogance, it is there. And so why add to the pain?

Do you not also understand that in Timothy's day, there were not millions of laws, and there were not hundreds of thousands of work laws, and there was work to be found if one sought? And still, if one seeks, they may be able to find some work. But then also, they may not. Or they may not find it in the time which everyone expects. And some hypocritically pray to the Lord, "Please, give that brother a job." But then when the brother comes back with no job, the same who prayed reams the brother out and says, "Why haven't you looked harder?" How hypocritical can one be?

I do not see the law being used to justify anyone here but one's self. I see the law being used to condemn and to accuse those which have angered the OP and all in agreement with the OP. The same have not experienced the darkness of the society of this world and the same are offended by that which they should not be offended.

Retirement funds, pension plans, insurances, stock options, and all manner of things exist for your account. And yet you worry about these things that these things have a power over you instead of to serve you. And surely, people have made these things a power over themselves. For now people base their entire lives on these things in the rich countries. "I've done my duty."

This thread would have been a little more righteous if it had been made for the purpose of condemning the rich who have forsaken the poor and who have cast stumbling blocks to prevent competition and to prevent provision or any sharing at all of any thing that they have; and even then, the thread would not have been in righteousness.

Thepurpose of this thread is to expose the false, man-made teaching of fatih only. Faith only will only leave a person lost.

Have you not looked thru this thread at how those that support this made-made doctrine are struggling to find to get a man sved WITHOUT that man ever doing any type of works at all???
Faith only has lead to to say the denier of Christ, the impenitnet, the one lost in his unforgiven sins, the one that closes up his compassion for his fellow brother, the one who does not have to walk in the light so his sins are allcleanse d away can still be saved.


You posted yourself "For those who work the job understanding that the job to provide for the family is not the job unto salvation,"

The implication of this is you are really saying one does NOT have to do the work of providing for his own house, he can be a denier of the faith, worse than an infidel yet still be saved.

 

[JGIG]

But none of this addresses the issue. I'm saying Christ pardoned the thief while he was still under the law of Moses. That's why he is not a good example for what to do to be saved today.

And again I disagree.

It was established in the OT by the first promises of redemption.

The NT Church was established at Pentecost yes.

But salvation was no different than the OT church.

The church is the body of CHrist. King David and Daniel were just as much a part of this body as I am.

That is correct because the new testament didn't begin until the death of Christ. Jesus repositioned the thief out from under the condemnation of the law because of his belief, and He also had the power to forgive, same as during His ministry. It's just like all the faithful being forgiven during the Old Testament times. Jesus taught during Old Testament times before He died.

Hebrews 9:16-17 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Guys - Jesus died before the thief.

The Blood of the Covenant had been spilt.

The thief believed Christ was Who He said He was.

He absolutely put his faith in the Work of Christ.

He was saved in the New Covenant.

The logistics of where and when he went?

Personally, I think he went with Jesus to Paradise, and then into heaven after the Resurrection:

10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! (Rom. 5:10)
​

Pentecost is when the Holy Spirit was poured out on mankind - on Earth.

That doesn't mean that the thief couldn't be saved until then; he was with Christ in Paradise, and having received life through Christ's Resurrection, was in heaven with God before Pentecost. Pentecost on Earth was of no consequence to him.

-JGIG

 

[BenFTW]

Has anyone even considered how arbitrary SeaBass' works based salvation is? Let me explain something to you, and also ask SeaBass something.

If someone accepts Christ and one opportunity(a good work) presents itself and the person does it, is he saved(and dies after)? SeaBass, you will say, "Yes." Right?

Now, if the same person has the opportunity presented to do a good work and doesn't do it, and dies, is he saved? SeaBass, you will answer, "No." That is, if you hold true to your works salvation. If you say, "Yes." then works are arbitrary. If you say, "No" that means that God requires perfection after one is saved (Why did Christ come again?).

Now, lets push this example even further. Say "Joe" accepts the Lord and has one year to live. Through out the year he is presented two opportunities to do good works. He does the first but doesn't do the second work. Is he saved, after the year is up and he dies? If you answer "Yes" then everyone is saved, because we will all unintentionally do a good work, out of who we are and the fruits of the Spirit. If you say, "No, he is not saved" then what you are saying is, again, that God requires perfection. To which I reply, "Why was Jesus sent again?" Oh, and if you say, "Yes" you've also shown that works are arbitrary because he did one and didn't do one.

PS: Is there a ratio of good works to missed good works to be saved? 50/50? 100% good works, with no missed opportunities? Who can do that?

 

[SeaBass]

Faith saves, works follow

Can one remain saved WITHOUT those works that follow?

 

[cfultz3]

Guys - Jesus died before the thief.

The Blood of the Covenant had been spilt.

The thief believed Christ was Who He said He was.

He absolutely put his faith in the Work of Christ.

He was saved in the New Covenant.

The logistics of where and when he went?

Personally, I think he went with Jesus to Paradise, and then into heaven after the Resurrection:

10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! (Rom. 5:10)
​

Pentecost is when the Holy Spirit was poured out on mankind - on Earth.

That doesn't mean that the thief couldn't be saved until then; he was with Christ in Paradise, and having received life through Christ's Resurrection, was in heaven with God before Pentecost. Pentecost on Earth was of no consequence to him.

-JGIG

Just a question....You said that the thief went to Paradise, and I agree, but was not Paradise in Hades then, the place where the righteous dead of the Old Covenant went and where Jesus and that men went? I mean, if he went there, then was he not judged under the OT, seeing that the NT saints go to Paradise which is now in Heaven (he could not have went to Heaven before Jesus)?

 

[SeaBass]

You're kidding, right?

Jesus had already ratified the New Covenant with His Blood by the time the guards came to break the legs of the two thieves to make them die faster; Jesus was already dead. So the thief on his cross died under the New Covenant. He absolutely was an example of NT salvation:

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (from Jn. 6)​

Did he work? Yep. He believed. He labored to enter into the Rest of Christ:

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (from Heb. 4)​

Not quite the 'work' you're trying to preach.

-JGIG

CHrist promised the thief paradise (salvation) while BOTH were alive and under the OT law.


Rom 10:9 could the thief have the type of belief theNT requires that "God HATH RAISED" (past tense) from the dead? No. At the time Christ promised the thief paradise, Christ had not yet died much less been riased from the dead and the thief was not accountable to this type of belief nor was he accountable to Christ's great commission baptism of Acts 2:38 for the thief died BEFORE this came intoeffect also.....in Luke 24 after Christ's death and ressurection Christ spoke to His disciples and in verse 47 we have Luke's account of Christ's great commission, Christ said "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Note that this did not come into effect until some weeks. months later at Pentecost in Acts 2 where Peter was in Jeusalem and preached repentance and baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins. Soeven after one dies, there can be a period of probation before the will takes effect. In this case it was several weeks before Luke 24:47 came into effect. It came into effect long AFTER the thief died thereby NOT making the thief accountable to ACts 2:38 as we today who live AFTER Acts 2:38 are accountable to it.